One Million Rupees Offer to prove "Homeopathy is Paranormal"

[Jeff Corey]

Originally posted by Dr. MAS [/i]
Dr. MAS...
Near Main Police Station
Main Market, Kharian
Pakistan
Should be in Main Police Station on charges of being a fraud and phony who has no doctoral degree and stealing money from people.

 

[Perpetual Notion]

I called meeting of 500 doctors from different areas and cities to discuss this issue.

Wow! 500 doctors! That's a heck of a lot of punch and cookies to set out. I can't hardly believe it.

Oh, wait! I don't have to because on this site, where your press release is posted, only 62 people actually showed up.

Of course you did have to add 25 and 37 and I know you have a problem with numbers, so I'll let you slide with the addition. Next time maybe you should actually have them count off.

 

[flume]

Wow! 500 doctors! That's a heck of a lot of punch and cookies to set out. I can't hardly believe it.

Oh, wait! I don't have to because on this site, where your press release is posted, only 62 people actually showed up.

Of course you did have to add 25 and 37 and I know you have a problem with numbers, so I'll let you slide with the addition. Next time maybe you should actually have them count off.

Dr. MAS said he called a meeting of 500 homeopaths to AMEND the first proposal. The site you posted was about an earlier meeting.

 

[Vikram]

Wow! 500 doctors! That's a heck of a lot of punch and cookies to set out. I can't hardly believe it.

Oh, wait! I don't have to because on this site, where your press release is posted, only 62 people actually showed up.

That's ok. Dr. MAD... uh sorry... MAS simply diluted and succussed them until they had the potency of 500.

 

[Homeo Man]

That's ok. Dr. MAD... uh sorry... MAS simply diluted and succussed them until they had the potency of 500.

He is the incharge of homeopathic doctors record. He has visited 20 to 30 thousand's doctors residences and clinics. He has also visited maximum homeopathic colleges in Pakisitan. We all know him.

mas,

My suggestion is, we should also offer them, that they can also win money if they prove that according to avogadro's number, homeopathic potency does not have any molecule in above 30x potency.

 

[Zep]

For this purpose, we have made very very very very very simple rules so that everybody should have equal chance to win the prize. Simply send request letter for registeration before starting work. Details are available at discussion board.

Once AGAIN, your so-called "homeopathic challenge" rules are hidden away from the public so that they can't be found or seen. This is totally unlike the JREF Challenge, which is quite public and open. As I said previously, I'm not interested in registering for your discussion board simply to find something that should in all honesty be on your public website.

Tell you what, Dr MAS. As soon as you put your challenge openly in public on the front page of www.nchpakistan.com then there will be some applicants from here on JREF for certain (Rolfe?). AND I expect we will publish here, and in a number of other skeptical places (are you listening, Claus?), all proceedings of the applications honestly and openly in full, whatever their outcomes. You can't get more clear and open than that, now can you.

So what do you say, Dr MAS? Will you be honest with your members and the world and make your "challenge" public? Or will you continue to hide it behind a forum where you don't have to show it and be criticised... Your call, Dr MAS - over to you. Let's see how brave you really are.

 

[Homeo Man]

Once AGAIN, your so-called "homeopathic challenge" rules are hidden away from the public so that they can't be found or seen. This is totally unlike the JREF Challenge, which is quite public and open.

That is not hidden. I am coming from the forum. It is open. Think twice before you leap.



As I said previously, I'm not interested in registering for your discussion board simply to find something that should in all honesty be on your public website.

You are most stupid person on this earth. It is open and you can read rules without getting registeration. For God sake come out from the sleep before passing remarks.


Tell you what, Dr MAS. As soon as you put your challenge openly in public on the front page of www.nchpakistan.com then there will be some applicants from here on JREF for certain (Rolfe?).

You can't force him, as that board is not the property of drmas neither he is the webmaster. We send posts to Mr. Irfan and Mr. Aurangzeb. Again you missed everything and shouting un-necessary. This is not a senisible approach

Mr. Irfan and Mr. Aurangzeb Alamgir with NCH President Dr. Nasir Ahmed Ch and Vice President Dr. Aslm.

http://www.nchpakistan.com/homeopaths.htm




AND I expect we will publish here, and in a number of other skeptical places (are you listening, Claus?), all proceedings of the applications honestly and openly in full, whatever their outcomes. You can't get more clear and open than that, now can you.

Irrelevent.


So what do you say, Dr MAS? Will you be honest with your members and the world and make your "challenge" public? Or will you continue to hide it behind a forum where you don't have to show it and be criticised... Your call, Dr MAS - over to you. Let's see how brave you really are.

Can't say, Wait for him.

 

[Ashles]

I called meeting of 500 doctors from different areas and cities to discuss this issue.

The following amendments were made to our previous offer

1. If you are interested in providing evidence or proofs that "Homeopathy does not work" then you have very good chance to win one million ruppees.

For this purpose, we have made very very very very very simple rules so that everybody should have equal chance to win the prize. Simply send request letter for registeration before starting work. Details are available at www.nchpakistan.com discussion board.

Prove this statement scientifically. For this purpose you can design any protocol, no restriction.

2. Send your controlled study thesis endorsed three Ph.D's

Aha, so it's moved from "I can explain how homeopathy works" to "Prove that it doesn't work"

Hmm, sounds familiar...

Just out of interest, why are all the studies that have alredy been done not eligible for the Million Rupees:

A review of the reviews of homeopathic studies has been done by Terence Hines (2003: 360-362). He reviewed Taylor et al. (2000), Wagner (1997), Sampson and London (1995), Kleijen, Knipschild, and ter Riet (1991), and Hill and Doyon (1990). More than one hundred studies have failed to come to any definitive positive conclusions about homeopathic potions. Ramey (2000) notes that:

"Homeopathy has been the subject of at least 12 scientific reviews, including meta-analytic studies, published since the mid-1980s....[And] the findings are remarkably consistent:....homeopathic "remedies" are not effective."

Do we really have to do yet another study to demostrate something we already know?

And why, exactly, are you not applying for the Million Dollar challenge?

By the way are you not now going to explain to us how homeopathy works like you said you were going to?

 

[Zep]

Oh I see - you DON'T have to register now. OK, that's an improvement, because when I went there last time I posted (a few weeks ago), it refused to let me in at all and demanded I register.

Your response seems to say that Dr MAS is doing this challenge without the support of NCH Pakistan, because they haven't mentioned at all on their website, except for a tiny story about sponsorship for the money. Now isn't that strange...!

Now let me see...

Oh, just a few rules, is it?

Few Rules:

1. First send request letter at my clinic with your complete introduction and academic qualification. Your ID number is must.

2. Send your thesis endorse with three Ph.D's Doctors from three different Universities with complete postal address and national ID numbers.

3. Our prize committee comprises of Ph.D doctors will examine your thesis. If the committee recommend and approved your study, you can win one million rupees.

4. This offer is valid for one month from 1st may 2005.

5. Committee decision is final.

Registeration is free.

This is just as whacky as Victor Zammit, the well-known afterlife kook and hearer-of-voices. Or Kent Hovind, the nitwit young-earth creationist and recalcitrant tax-dodger. There are so many loopholes for Dr MAS and his team of water-wifflers to slip through that it's got all the makings of a silly story.

This isn't a challenge at all, is it! It's a joke. It's GOT to be a joke!

 

[Kumar]

He is the incharge of homeopathic doctors record. He has visited 20 to 30 thousand's doctors residences and clinics. He has also visited maximum homeopathic colleges in Pakisitan. We all know him.

mas,

My suggestion is, we should also offer them, that they can also win money if they prove that according to avogadro's number, homeopathic potency does not have any molecule in above 30x[/b] potency. [/B]

 

[Ashles]

1. First send request letter at my clinic with your complete introduction and academic qualification. Your ID number is must.

2. Send your thesis endorse with three Ph.D's Doctors from three different Universities with complete postal address and national ID numbers.

3. Our prize committee comprises of Ph.D doctors will examine your thesis. If the committee recommend and approved your study, you can win one million rupees.

4. This offer is valid for one month from 1st may 2005.

5. Committee decision is final.

As I have asked on the other forum, why is judging required?
Science (real science that is) uses actual levels of statistical significance - we don't vote as to whether something exists or note.

Whats to prevent the committee just saying no to any claim?

 

[Ashles]

Pakistan certainly appears to need some kind of improvement to its healthcare:

As it currently stands, it is down at position 77 on the WHO international list of longevity for males, and a rather worrying 162 for females. Below Papua New Guinea. Below Senegal. One position above Democratic Republic of the Congo.

The list only has 192 countries in total.
That is not good.

For every health statistic I could check Pakistan fared fairly badly, even comparitively to the region.
Adult and child mortality levels are in the worse third.
Child mortality rates
Adult mortality rates

If homeopathy is widespread in Pakistan it doesn't seem to be doing much good.

 

[flume]

As I have asked on the other forum, why is judging required?
Science (real science that is) uses actual levels of statistical significance - we don't vote as to whether something exists or note.

Whats to prevent the committee just saying no to any claim?

Well, the JREF challenge includes approval for the test format ahead of time. That is a form of judging, so I don't see the objection.

It's not clear to me if that is what is being proposed here though. What kind of entries do they expect to get? Proposals? Completed experiments? Written explanations of already published work of others?

What kind of study would they find convincing? Is there any study they could do on their own (using the prize money, maybe, if there are no successful entries in the next month).

 

[Ashles]

Well, the JREF challenge includes approval for the test format ahead of time. That is a form of judging, so I don't see the objection.

That's what I mean - with the JREF a pass level is set before the test and agreed by the claimant and the organisation.

So after the test is completed either it has been passed or failed - there is no judging required, or even allowed.

But in this homeopathic test nothing seems to be agreed beforehand so how can anyone possibly know what they need to do in order to pass?

 

[Dr. MAS]

Oh I see - you DON'T have to register now. OK, that's an improvement, because when I went there last time I posted (a few weeks ago), it refused to let me in at all and demanded I register.

Homeoman,

He is saying right because when you got registeration it was open and when he visited it was closed.

He supposes so many things without actually experimenting.

 

[Kumar]

Pakistan certainly appears to need some kind of improvement to its healthcare:

As it currently stands, it is down at position 77 on the WHO international list of longevity for males, and a rather worrying 162 for females. Below Papua New Guinea. Below Senegal. One position above Democratic Republic of the Congo.

The list only has 192 countries in total.
That is not good.

For every health statistic I could check Pakistan fared fairly badly, even comparitively to the region.
Adult and child mortality levels are in the worse third.
Child mortality rates
Adult mortality rates

If homeopathy is widespread in Pakistan it doesn't seem to be doing much good.

Probably, they are therfore, pursuing homeopathy so much, because it might had coudn't handled by routines or otherwise.

 

[Zep]

Homeoman,

He is saying right because when you got registeration it was open and when he visited it was closed.

He supposes so many things without actually experimenting.

Do not be so sure of yourself.

I tried a number of times over a number of weeks (at least once per day) to access your forum in the hope of finding coherent details of your challenge. This is because the information you talk about is certainly not available on the NCH website or anywhere prominent. I gave up after there weeks because your forum demanded I register BEFORE it would let me read anything at all, which meant you were simply hiding your challenge out of the public eye.

Now that there is no registration required, that has improved things a little bit, but not a lot. Still your challenge is NOT in the public eye but hidden on a discussion forum. And it does not appear to be particularly well organised either - is there a clear statement of what the challenger has to do? An application form? No...

Having read the rules you set out, I can only conclude that you and/or your group have no intention of making this a fair challenge at all. Let's just go through your rules and see why:

1. First send request letter at my clinic with your complete introduction and academic qualification. Your ID number is must.

What this has to do with acceptance or judging no-one can tell, except to allow your the chance to exclude people on their name or level of education - how convenient... And what ID number might that be? I have no "academic ID number" that is recognised world-wide, so does that mean I am excluded from your challenge? If so, that's both highly exclusionary AND cheating.

2. Send your thesis endorse with three Ph.D's Doctors from three different Universities with complete postal address and national ID numbers.

So you expect the applicants to submit a full PhD thesis for examination? With the completely irrelevant and stupidly impossible endorsement requirement? This is simply a very VERY childish escape-clause, isn't it.

3. Our prize committee comprises of Ph.D doctors will examine your thesis. If the committee recommend and approved your study, you can win one million rupees.

Ah! I see! This is called "stacking the deck", and is one of the most serious breaches of properly managed challenges. This alone says that you are so NOT serious that it IS a joke. If you had any integrity, you would at least relegate this task to a COMPLETELY INDEPENDANT examination committee, agreed by both yourself and the applicant(s).

Furthermore, this is where we find the actual "challenge" required to win your prize - convince a totally partisan committee! Not "provide proof", or "demonstrate with clear statistics", nothing actually scientific! If you were actually serious about this, you would propose some protocol where subjective judgement is not necessary - the results would be obvious to everyone. That you do not says a lot about your understanding of scientific research.

4. This offer is valid for one month from 1st may 2005.

...in which a full PhD thesis has to be compiled, written, reviewed, and sent to you in Pakistan. How serious ARE you about this? Not very, it seems...

5. Committee decision is final.

Note, not the evidence's decision is final, just the committee's.

Look, the JREF challenge stands in public, it is there ad infinitum, it is a real US$1,000,000, and the rules are simple and clear about non-judgemental results. In no way does your "Million Rupee Offer" even come close to comparing to this, and it's even further from being scientific.

Are you SURE you have a PhD in something?

 

[Ashles]

Probably, they are therfore, pursuing homeopathy so much, because it might had coudn't handled by routines or otherwise.

From the front page of NCHPakistan.com

Founder of Pakistan
Quaid – e – Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah Said "I am glad to learn that Homeopathic System is becoming quite popular, besides America or Europe, in all sections of population in the subcontinent".... 1937

So you agree that Pakistan is a country that uses homeopathy widely at the moment, has done so for almost 70 years, and currently has rather poor healthcare statistics?

Well fair enough then.

 

[Homeo Man]

sorry doctor, i was not aware of this info. I got frustrated by his foolish reply.

 

[Kumar]

From the front page of NCHPakistan.com
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Founder of Pakistan
Quaid – e – Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah Said "I am glad to learn that Homeopathic System is becoming quite popular, besides America or Europe, in all sections of population in the subcontinent".... 1937
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So you agree that Pakistan is a country that uses homeopathy widely at the moment, has done so for almost 70 years, and currently has rather poor healthcare statistics?

Well fair enough then.

Biased thinking Where he said becomingpopular in pakistan or well existing to effect that much as you indicated. He must be encouraging by showing the example.