Noah's Ark

[kiwimac]

Found a nice commentary from Josephus.

The problem here is not so much with God per se but with folks assuming that killing others was ok with God because it was Ok with them.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Talk about deceitful.

Not at all. The Israelis won, didn't they? They had an almighty God on their side, and as, I believe, you have said, "with God all things are possible". And when battle came about... more often than not the Jews won. Except if the enemy had Iron Chariots, which somehow dispelled God's almighty magic.

15 Then panic struck the whole army—those in the camp and field, and those in the outposts and raiding parties—and the ground shook. It was a panic sent by God.

So much for the "God should not violate our free will" bullocks.

But there is a Christian record and why is it, that it doesn’t count as historical, because some body else didn’t record it?

So if something's written in a book, it's automatically true? Do you believe every aspect of the Norse sagas, too, including the Norse creation myth and the passage, for example, about Finnish wizards creating storms?

I like how you leave out the parts that are real bad like;

Yeah, you do. Like for example "books written by people who carry out genocide are never a reliable testament to the real nature of the vanquished". If no other historical record existed of Jews prior to 1940, would you trust My Struggle to tell you the truth about them, or wouldn't you?

That’s a ridicules scenario since Christ’s mission has been fulfilled.

You're backpedaling. You stated earlier that you justified a genocide on the grounds that the exterminated people tried to wipe out the Jews. Stand by it or take it back.

By WWII, there were plenty of prophecies involving Jews that hadn't been fulfilled. You know that.

The Germans where pissed off that the Jews had a hand at having Christ crucified.

What's this paragraph got to do with anything?

Not all the Jews were bad same with the Italians and the Germans.

But the children and dogs of Jericho were. Right.

The only true authority is God and that would interfere with their plans to be what ever they were or wanted, Chancellor, king, or president of a giant oil firm or president of a country.

...eh?

What your saying is that God isn’t suppose to have final and unequivocal judgment on us.

No one is supposed to be a final and unequivocal authority all on his own. Not Yahweh, not Mao, not Hitler, not Dubya, not Hillary Clinton, not me, not anyone. Freedom doesn't work that way, edge.

 

[edge]

These nations were warned for 400 or so years not to mess with them but they kept invading.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

There are two sides in the battle there are the ones in the right and there are the those that are wrong.

Nothing in life is that black and white.

You would think that after turning their swords on one another and earthquakes accompanied by only two Hebrews who are taking out anyone that’s left standing to fight them, they would figure it out.

So now might makes right, too.

Your forty feet away and a suicide bomber

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

We've already run through this scenario, edge. Is it justified to kill an assailant in self-defense? Yes. Is it also moral to kill all of his family, friends and animals? No.

You can set up the scenario in as many ways as you want. It still won't make sense.

ETA: Oh, and you're forgetting something - that God is omnipotent. If I was omnipotent, I'd simply teleport the guy away, disarm his bomb magically, change his mind, anything nonviolent. He is happy, my son is happy, I'm happy.

His promise to the Hebrew nation wasn’t going to be broken especially by Satan worshipers.

Satan again? After our above posts? Why don't you read what we write, edge?

So you think that God who omnipotent can’t look into the future and decide what is necessary to in order to do what is necessary to carry out his promise to us all.

An omnipotent - omnipotent - God has an infinity of solutions available to Him other than violence. So no, there's no way He could've decided genocide was necessary. To most of us, edge, violence is a last resort, not a first.

Go figure: at this point if I was a Philistine I would change my beliefs, kind of reminds me of you all, you can’t change your line of thought.

A baseless accusation that I find especially cute coming from a person who's admitted he can't question his religion because "God is always right and can't do wrong". That, edge, in a nutshell, is the inability to change your line of thought.

 

[Foster Zygote]

What your saying is that God isn’t suppose to have final and unequivocal judgment on us and then you equate him to Hitler who in reality was anti Christian.
Or an antichrist himself.
Back at you, that’s the sickest thing I have read.

Why was Hitler anti-Christian? Was it because he commited acts of genocide, like those that you seek to justify in the name of your god? I'm sorry but you can't say "genocide by Hebrews = good; genocide by Nazi's = bad". If Hitler's acts of mass-murder were evil then so were those of the god you worship.

So lets do a scenario that makes sense;

Your forty feet away and a suicide bomber with a sword is about to lop off your sons head, he is the same age as your child the sword is the immediate threat but the bomb is a future threat and will take out many more people near the vicinity in the future.
You are near a loaded crossbow or gun ready TO FIRE.
Do you save your son and change the future? Do you kill the kid with the sword and bomb?
Does god have the right to do the same not only his son but also many, many others?
His promise to the Hebrew nation wasn’t going to be broken especially by Satan worshipers.
So you think that God who omnipotent can’t look into the future and decide what is necessary to in order to do what is necessary to carry out his promise to us all.

So the suicide bomber is three years old? Actually, your scenario doesn't make the least bit of sense. It is a rambling, disjointed fantasy. Even if the bomber is older, if I shoot him with the crossbow, or gun, or trebuchet, or Wookie bowcaster etc. how is he then going to go on to kill others with his bomb?

Here's a scenario that's a bit closer to what you are advancing in defense of your god:

There's a group of people over the hills that speak a different dialect and have different customs than your community. Your political/religious leader announces that God told him that it is time to kill these people because God doesn't love them and He wants you to make a home in their land. So you go to war and slaughter the militia that they send out to defend their homes and families. Then you advance on their town and brutally slaughter everyone who couldn't join in the defense of their town. The elderly, the sick, mothers, children, infants... Everyone! You find a young mother and her two small children lying in the dirt. Her head is split open by a blow from a bronze sword. Her four year old son has had his head nearly severed by the same instrument. Then you notice that the two year old girl in her head mother's arms is only stunned. She stirs and moans, then opens her tear-streaked eyes to gaze up at you. Her hair is matted with her mothers spilled blood. You grab her by the ankle and pull her limp form from her mother's lifeless arms. You know what you have to do. These people are all evil, your leader told you so. They anger your god. This little girl is a Satan worshiper after all. you hold her little ankle in your powerful, war strengthened hand and swing her hard against the wall of the home that her mother was trying to flee, crushing her small skull. You discard her crumpled body atop her favorite toy that slipped from her grasp when her terrified mother had lifted her just minutes before. You turn away from her. She is already forgotten. You are busy doing God's work. There are more of these wicked, sub-human Satan worshipers to slay. Praise and glory be to God.

You may as well argue that the final judgment is genocide too when all evil is put down forever.

You mean your fantasies about when your god shows up to finally destroy everyone who doesn't sycophantically praise him? His final judgment on all the evil people who lived their lives in peace, helped their neighbors, loved their children and worshiped the gods that they were raised with?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Why was Hitler anti-Christian?

Seeing Hitler was a Christian, I'd be hard-pressed to answer this one myself.

And edge, you're not making any sense at all.

You said you advocated the mythical genocide of an ancient people because they worshiped a "false god" and sacrificed kids. I pointed out that the Aztecs did the same thing and asked you if you supported the acts of the Conquistadors. You said no.

You said that you advocated the massacre of Jericho because they "tried to wipe out the Jews". I point out that Hitler did the same thing. Yet you're against a genocide of the Germans.

You say (if I understand you correctly) that God intervening in WWII would "prevent Hitler from being whatever he wants, be it president, dictator, or oil company director"... but you're perfectly happy with the many other instances in which God interferes in humans' free will - when He brought panic upon the Phillistines; when He hardened the pharaoh's heart; when He slaughtered the people of Jericho.

You are not only defending genocide, you're also doing it in a very self-contradicting way. I'm not saying you should start advocating genocide to be consistent, I'm saying you should sit down and think with an open mind about your stance.

 

[Autolite]

What your saying is that God isn’t suppose to have final and unequivocal judgment on us and then you equate him to Hitler who in reality was anti Christian.

Hitler was anti christian? Really???

http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm

 

[edge]

False teachings are not Christain.

 

[blauregen]

Hitler was anti christian? Really???

http://www.nobeliefs.com/mementoes.htm

The verdict seems ambiguous according to wikipedia. As often adherents of different viewpoints try to claim the good guys, like great scientists and reformers for themselves and to shoehorn the villains into the camp of the other side. He was likely a theist.

I remember that years back on a gay board people tried to claim most great artists and jesus christ as gay, and even Dawkins makes a point of developing nearly tetrapilotomical distinctions, to reclaim scientists as not theistic.

 

[Madalch]

These nations were warned for 400 or so years not to mess with them but they kept invading.

But it's just fine for the Hebrews to invade other nations.

 

[Olowkow]

...
I remember that years back on a gay board people tried to claim most great artists and jesus christ as gay, and even Dawkins makes a point of developing nearly tetrapilotomical distinctions, to reclaim scientists as not theistic.

OK, I'll bite. What is a tetrapilotomical distinction?

 

[Madalch]

If no other historical record existed of Jews prior to 1940, would you trust My Struggle to tell you the truth about them, or wouldn't you?

I'm not sure that Edge will recognize the book you mention, as it is usually referred to in English by its German title, Mein Kampf.

Then again, he might, but I thought I'd clarify (particularly since it matches the avatar I'm using today).

 

[blauregen]

OK, I'll bite. What is a tetrapilotomical distinction?

Tetrapilotomy is the art of splitting a hair into 4 parts.

 

[I Ratant]

I am assuming they would be John Rambostein and Bruce Willisberg.

I can just see Rambostein screaming after the philistines, "I'm comingst to get thou".

Unbeeeeelievable

.
And if two can't do it, call for "Texas Ranger, the Walking Man"!

 

[joobz]

Here's a scenario that's a bit closer to what you are advancing in defense of your god:

There's a group of people over the hills that speak a different dialect and have different customs than your community. Your political/religious leader announces that God told him that it is time to kill these people because God doesn't love them and He wants you to make a home in their land. So you go to war and slaughter the militia that they send out to defend their homes and families. Then you advance on their town and brutally slaughter everyone who couldn't join in the defense of their town. The elderly, the sick, mothers, children, infants... Everyone! You find a young mother and her two small children lying in the dirt. Her head is split open by a blow from a bronze sword. Her four year old son has had his head nearly severed by the same instrument. Then you notice that the two year old girl in her head mother's arms is only stunned. She stirs and moans, then opens her tear-streaked eyes to gaze up at you. Her hair is matted with her mothers spilled blood. You grab her by the ankle and pull her limp form from her mother's lifeless arms. You know what you have to do. These people are all evil, your leader told you so. They anger your god. This little girl is a Satan worshiper after all. you hold her little ankle in your powerful, war strengthened hand and swing her hard against the wall of the home that her mother was trying to flee, crushing her small skull. You discard her crumpled body atop her favorite toy that slipped from her grasp when her terrified mother had lifted her just minutes before. You turn away from her. She is already forgotten. You are busy doing God's work. There are more of these wicked, sub-human Satan worshipers to slay. Praise and glory be to God.

Psalm 137:9

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.

Edge, how do you justify calling the above scenario atrocity only when others religions do it?

 

[joobz]

False teachings are not Christain.

It is far from clear what would be considered a false teaching.

Let's try and keep things clear and start with the basics:
By true christian teachings, Is mass genocide good or bad?

 

[Tricky]

It is far from clear what would be considered a false teaching.

Ridiculous. It is quite clear. Any Christian teaching in conflict with what Edge believes is false.

Duh.

 

[articulett]

Yep. If it isn't good or true... it's not Christian. If your interpretation sounds wicked-- you interpreted it wrong.

 

[Olowkow]

http://www.learnthebible.org/q_a_dashing_little_ones_against_stones.htm

There is no point reasoning with bible thumpers. They have an answer for everything, simply because human language is so ambiguous.
Actually, I'm pretty happy when I'm "dashing my little one against my stones."

 

[Autolite]

http://www.learnthebible.org/q_a_dashing_little_ones_against_stones.htm

There is no point reasoning with bible thumpers. They have an answer for everything, simply because human language is so ambiguous.
Actually, I'm pretty happy when I'm "dashing my little one against my stones."

I dunno. "Gott Mit Uns" stamped on a steel belt buckle doesn't seem to leave very much room for ambiguity. I am thinking that it would make their (the Nazi's) mindset pretty much apparent ...