Noah's Ark

[Sunstealer]

That is why religion is child abuse. It makes a brain fester in faith when it can grow in reason.

I like this quote.

It's wrong to do this to people. To it's like watching someone on a really bad trip you know they are unlikely to ever come out of.

As one who has taken psychedelic drugs (long in the past) I can vividly remember the moment late on during my first LSD trip (they were all good) in a friend's flat thinking, "What if I never become straight again and remain like this forever" i.e never come down. Whilst I later found out that this thought is common (and is quite amusing) I've yet to know anyone who would have liked to remain in that state and not return to reality. I suspect that indoctrinated religion is that trip, but without the experience of reality or the experience of denying it. Conversely of course I suspect that religionists could argue the opposite, however, which came first; the (experience of) reality or the (experience of) the trip? The trip/religion has to be introduced.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Again off topic.

Oh come now, Edge. It's not that off topic. It's related through the concept of Biblical literalism. Is it simply that the subject of the Biblical God ordering the slaughter of women and children in order that his "chosen people" might occupy their land makes you uncomfortable?

I'm not in a position to judge Gods decisions if in fact it is.

So if your god commanded you to slaughter women and children you would not find that in the least bit morally reprehensible?

I don't condone killing anything-even bugs.

I don't step on bugs either. But you are saying that your god commands his armies to hack little children to pieces.

The first instinct a person has when they see a snake is to kill it, I don't.

My first instinct is to leave it alone. Most snakes are harmless and the vipers around here just want to be left alone. But if I had to kill a diamond back to protect my son I would not hesitate. Would you? Like Tricky, I value a human life above a snake's. What I wouldn't do is kill innocent families because they worshiped the "wrong" gods and I wanted to live on their land.

The Hebrews seem to think or were told it was Justifiable and the reasons where given.

So if you had been among them you would not have felt the slightest guilt had you personally decapitated a two year old girl? And now you say "seem to think or were told". Are you having doubts as to the truth of their claims to be following God's command?

The only person that can explain it to satisfaction will be God.
Unanswered questions will be all answered when we stand before him.

"Erm, excuse me God. I couldn't help noticing that pile of hacked up children rotting in the sun. I trust there's a perfectly reasonable and perfectly good explanation for that."

Seems like God should have talked directly to Bush, no pun intended, but what do you think of bombing the crap out of the Iraqi’s, shouldn’t it have been Saudi Arabia?
I would consider that war to be genocidal.

So it bothers you when others go off topic, but it's all right for you? Honestly Edge, what do you expect I'll answer? Are you creating a straw man of me, assuming that I'll defend Bush's "war on terror". What does it have to do with the fact that you claim that your god ordered the slaughter of whole families and that this slaughter was a good and justifiable act for which god should not be condemned?

 

[articulett]

I like this quote.

As one who has taken psychedelic drugs (long in the past) I can vividly remember the moment late on during my first LSD trip (they were all good) in a friend's flat thinking, "What if I never become straight again and remain like this forever" i.e never come down. Whilst I later found out that this thought is common (and is quite amusing) I've yet to know anyone who would have liked to remain in that state and not return to reality. I suspect that indoctrinated religion is that trip, but without the experience of reality or the experience of denying it. Conversely of course I suspect that religionists could argue the opposite, however, which came first; the (experience of) reality or the (experience of) the trip? The trip/religion has to be introduced.

It is interesting, because whatever "state" you are in... feels like the "real" one... the one you are meant to be in... and it also shades how you view the past and the present and future. When I'm depressed, I feel I've always been so... when I'm giddy I feel like the phrase, "I'm a giddy person" applies to me for more than just that moment.

I haven't been high or drunk much (I appear to have no need to loosen my inhibitions ), but there is always a sense of wishing I had more control to snap out of it at will.

The thing that bugs me most about religious indoctrination is this meme that is continually reinforced that faith is ennobling... the key to salvation... that anything that causes you to doubt is due to demon influence or a test from god-- it's someone trying to "get you to bite from the tree of knowledge".

It forces a kid to see lies and "higher truths" and bend the facts to fit the "higher truth". It's just a weird sort of brainwashing that becomes harder and harder to deprogram with time. What is a person to do when the stuff they "need" to be true conflicts with the stuff that is.

A kid who is a homosexual might really "need" to be a heterosexual according to this brainwashing... people may "need" to be chaste... and yet reality doesn't care what you've been brainwashed to think you are supposed to feel or be or do. I just find it so-- wrong. Homosexual religious kids have a particularly high suicide rate... that is just-- devastatingly wrong, isn't it? Beliefs matter. Why wouldn't we all encourage each other to know the truest ones-- the ones that bring the most understanding. Why can't we say-- nobody really "knows" "x"-- it's all conjecture or opinion, etc.? Religion destroys an untold number of lives... all based on what? A lie. A promise of 72 virgins or some other happily ever after and some later time that is supposed to last forever.

Edge seems like a nice guy to me. But he puts us all in the position of either destroying his needed fantasy or being straight men (no pun intended) for his spinning of his delusion.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Again off topic.
I'm not in a position to judge Gods decisions if in fact it is.

It's not off topic, because the moral debate over the literal interpretation of Noah's Ark hinges on whether or not it makes sense for God to destroy as he sees fit for arbitrary reasons. You can't declare God to be beyond human judgment when it is precisely your own human judgment that you have already used to declare the Old Testament genocides to be just.

 

[articulett]

Yes he can.

He can do anything he needs to do to keep his faith.

In fact, he must do anything he can do to keep his faith.

 

[edge]

Only this we are sure of, that God has created of one blood all nations of men; they are all descended from one Adam, one Noah. Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us?
1Ch 1:28-54

My first instinct is to leave it alone. Most snakes are harmless and the vipers around here just want to be left alone. But if I had to kill a diamond back to protect my son I would not hesitate. Would you? Like Tricky, I value a human life above a snake's. What I wouldn't do is kill innocent families because they worshiped the "wrong" gods and I wanted to live on their land.

I will find what they worshiped and link it. But here lets see.

Why were the Amalekites annihilated completely by Israel?
· The call to wipe out the Amalekites was issued by God before Christ, during a time when God was protecting and preserving the Jewish people.
· The Amalekites were to be punished, because they were wicked.
· The Amalekites did not fear God; instead, they attacked the weakest of God's people.
· There are six other passages like this one that embrace what is referred to as "the ban," where everyone is to be killed and everything is to be destroyed.
·
o
o William F. Albright, a famous archeologist, once described their religion as "perhaps the most depraved religion known to man."
o
· From here: http://preachingtoday.com/sermons/outlines/annihilatetheamalekites.html
·
·
·

The Amalekites are believed to have inhabited the Sinai peninsula. Why did God command the Amalekites be annihilated completely?
Because, Amalekites were the first pagan terrorists who were hell-bent on wiping out Israel - the real God's Covenant people. Amalekites would lay and wait to murder Israelites. The Amalekites were distinguished in the holy Scripture by two villainous characteristics: cruelty and cowardice. What makes the Amalekites particularly interesting is that these two characteristics are always glaringly present when an Amalekite is involved in any Biblical story. In every story in which an Amalekite is privileged to participate, the reader witnesses this extraordinarily evil people not only committing cruel acts, but at the same time committing those acts in an unashamedly cowardly manner. They were warriors, yes, but they were not noble warriors. They never fought a fair fight. Reference

Amalekites have much in common with the hate filled satanically-inspired Muslims of today, who preach hatred and death to Israel and the USA, each Friday in their mosques. The fate of the Amalekites should serve as a warning to Muslim terrorists. Speaking about the real biblical God (not the fake hate filled Allah). God CANNOT commit any unjust act. And He will always protect Israel from any attempts to annihilate her.
Read more about the Amalekites: here
Much like Satan sending the giants to Canaan ahead of the Hebrews - from which Jesus and atonement was to come.

Prophecies:Balaam mentioned Amalek as "first of the nations", adding that "his latter end shall be that he perish forever" (Num.24:20). "First of the nations" refers to the fact that the Amalekites were the first of the nations to oppose Israel after their exodus from Egypt. Balaam's dreadful prophecy of the Amalekites' gloomy end echoes God's promise that He would "put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven" (Ex.17:16). Accordingly, as you may have noticed, there are no extant Amalekites.

And what are we doing in the Middle East?

The actual worship of Ba‘al was carried out in terms of imitative magic whereby sexual acts by both male and female temple prostitutes were understood to arouse Ba‘al who then brought rain to make Mother Earth fertile (in some forms of the myth, represented by a female consort, Asherah or Astarte).
When crops were abundant, Ba‘al was praised and thanked for his abundant rain. It is in this context that drought had such impact throughout the biblical traditions. Not only was lack of rain a threat to survival, it was also a sign that the gods of the Ba‘al myth were unhappy. It is this context that the "contest" between Elijah and the prophets of Ba’al carries such significance. The issue is really who controls the rain, Ba‘al or Yahweh.
Hosea suggests and Jeremiah graphically depicts the debauchery and excesses that developed in the worship of Ba‘al. Because of the sexual overtones of Ba‘al worship, it was easy to use the metaphor of adultery or prostitution to describe the problem that such syncretism raised for Israel. The prophets are consistent in condemning Ba‘al worship as a sign of being unfaithful to their covenant relationship with Yahweh.

From Here: http://www.cresourcei.org/baal.html

We can see from these quotes that Baal and Ashtaroth worship incorporated illegal sexual acts and that the Asherah was nothing but a phallic symbol. That word lascivious means lewd, lustful, licentious, lecherous, bawdy. In other words Baal worship was accompanied with sinful sexual acts; behaviour expressly forbidden in Jehovah's law. That is the first fact I wish to make this morning. Let us now find out what those forbidden sexual acts were.


"Out of reverence for Kronos [Baal], the Phoenicians, and especially the Carthaginians, whenever they seek to obtain some great favor, vow one of their children, burning it as a sacrifice to the deity, if they are especially eager to gain success. There stands in their midst a bronze statue of Kronos, its hands extended over a bronze brazier, the flames of which engulf the child. When the flames fall on the body, the limbs contract and the open mouth seems almost to be laughing, until the contracted body slips quietly into the brazier."

Ancients were led by Satan to kill their children for personal convenience and gain, while engaging in promiscuity. Modern Baal worshipers-a.k.a. abortionists - have slaughtered millions for the same reasons. Do such abortionists care for the welfare of the mother? Do they warn of the increased risk of cancer? In fact they have tried to cover it up.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Abortion is Murder/abortion_and_baal_worship.htm

What’s in the bible:

Judges 10: 6: And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon, and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him.
1 Kings 14: 21: And Rehoboam the son of Solomon reigned in Judah. Rehoboam was forty and one years old when he began to reign, and he reigned seventeen years in Jerusalem, the city which the LORD did choose out of all the tribes of Israel, to put his name there. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess.22: And Judah did evil in the sight of the LORD, and they provoked him to jealousy with their sins which they had committed, above all that their fathers had done.23: For they also built them high places, and images, and groves, (Asherah) on every high hill, and under every green tree. 24: And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominations of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Israel.
2 Kings 17: 16: And they (Israel) left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal.
2 Kings 21: 3: For he (Manasseh) built up again the high places which Hezekiah his father had destroyed; and he reared up altars for Baal, and made a grove, as did Ahab king of Israel; and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.

The Israelites where not immune from Gods wrath either:

Numbers 25: 1: And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. 2: And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. 3: And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. 4: And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel. 5: And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baal-peor. 6: And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 7: And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; 8: And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. 9: And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand.

· Baal worship is not a bygone phenomenon. It is widespread in these last days. Baal worship is giving free-reign to the carnal nature. It expresses itself in gluttony, drunkenness and sinful sexual acts.
· The Elijah Message calls people back to obedience of the commandments of Yahweh the Almighty God of Israel


Articulate says:

Religion destroys an untold number of lives... all based on what? A lie. A promise of 72 virgins or some other happily ever after and some later time that is supposed to last forever.

You need to understand the differences since you like to lump all of the religions in one category which is the most illogical thing to do, so don’t lie we are talking about the Christian Bible.

Jesus said; "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believeth on him who sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

Muhammad never even knew the name of the true God (Yahweh/Jehovah/I am/Jesus) who came to earth as God on earth. Nowhere in the Bible does God call Himself "Allah".

Christians & Jewish martyrs say; "I will die for what I believe."

A Muslim martyr says; "you will die for what I believe."

Yahweh told us; "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" Isaiah

44:6Jesus showed his divinity by doing many miracles, made prophecies that came true; and led a sinless life. He fulfilled over 300 prophecies about himself.

Jesus promised to save those who believe and trust in Him. He willingly died for our sins.
He said He is the Son of God and also God.
He forgave sins and dispelled demons in His own name, and said He and the Father are one. (Surah 3:49; 5:110) Proverbs 30:4 (written 700 B.C.): "...What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou canst tell?" (Psalm 2:11-12)
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.

Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. Jesus said; "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

Matthew 5:44 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Jesus never took up a sword or encouraged anyone else to do so. Once a close follower took it upon himself to take up a sword. Jesus soundly reprimanded him. Jesus warned; "all who take the sword will perish by the sword" (Matthew 26:52)

Christianity and Islam are necessarily forever diametrically opposed to one another, just as evil and good are. Oral confession of the deity of Jesus Christ is prerequisite to becoming a Christian (Romans 10:9-10).
To a Muslim, this is blasphemy.
To a Christian it is blasphemy to not attribute divinity to Jesus the Christ.

The New Testament could not be clearer on this subject. The heart, core and soul of Christianity is allegiance to Jesus Christ as God, Lord, and Savior!
Were Jesus Christ who the satanically-inspired Muslim Qur'an who it makes Him out to be, then Christianity would be blasphemous and baseless.

Nowhere in the Bible is the name "Allah". Muhammad managed to get billions of people to blindly misdirect their sweet prayers & hatreds to this old pagan tribal moon god of his own family.
This intolerant Islamic Allah was never there. Muhammad's own father’s Muhammad led a robber band of desert thugs who plundered, raped and murdered.
No prophecies announced the coming of Muhammad.

All God's prophets did miracles to prove they were speaking for God. God would have it no other way.

Muhammad did NO miracles and made only ONE vague prophecy about 7th century Romans. Twice in The Qur'an Muhammad admitted he could not show any divine connection via miracles. (Surah 17:90-95; 3:183, also see: 29:50-51)

Muhammad rarely showed any compassion and had all his detractors murdered. He was fond of splitting the spoils of war. Muhammad himself was unsure if he would go to heaven.

Allah often changed his mind to suit Muhammad's personal agenda. “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers, smite at their necks;" Qur'an (Koran) 47:4Sura's 8:39; 9:5; 9:29: 47:4

in the Muslim Qur'an/Koran are 'divine' commandments to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death.

Who is Allah really? The Qur'an (Koran) says that Allah desires to lead people astray (Qur'an Sura 6:39, 126).
He does not help those who are led astray by him (Sura 30:29), and Allah desires to use them to populate hell (Sura 32:13).

According to Muslim scholar Pickthal, "the number of campaigns (military) he (Muhammad) led in person during the last ten years of his life is twenty-seven, in nine of which there was hard fighting.
The number of expeditions which he planned and sent out under other leaders is thirty-eight" (n.d., pg. xxvi)



Read: 300 Prophecies of Jesus

Read: Muhammad, Terrorist or Prophet?

Using the term “Son of Man” really was an expression of humility by Jesus.
It's an indication of how God actually had been willing to lower Himself to mankind’s level, by being born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18-25).

The True Sign of Evil: There is no surer sign of evil than the diabolical way people worship the God of love.
The word love is conspicuously missing from the Muslim Koran.
Christian and Jewish houses of worship preach love and no hatred on Saturdays and Sundays.
Contrast this with Islamic imams who every Friday, continue to blare forth their incendiary messages from their mosques of hate and contempt for Israel, the Jewish people, the USA, and the West.



The Muslim Qur'an (Koran) is literally dripping in evil! This demonically inspired document goes out of its way to lie about Jesus; thus negating the salvation Jesus made possible. Islam is uniquely at odds with Christianity in all its major dogmas. As an example, the "god" of Islam created and inspired sin. The Qur'an (Koran) says that this "god of vengeance", Allah both created and inspires sin, right there in the Qur'an. Where as the real holy God who cannot sin, took our sins on Himself. Islam says if you believe God came to earth as a man, as Jesus did, then you will go to Hell. Doctrinally, wouldn't the one who created sin be an unholy sinner himself?

Islam is the religion of anger and hatred. It is an anti-freedom system, which seeks to ultimately control the entire world.

Additionally, only a demon or fallen angel would insist its followers make never ending war on non-believers, as this impersonal "god" Allah does. 1 in every 55 verses in the Qur'an incites Muslims to make war on non-Muslims. The Qur'an, is in fact a satanic blueprint for the art of deception, doubletalk, double-dealing and treachery. The word love is conspicuously missing from the Muslim Qur'an.

Islam's founder (Muhammad) was an historic pedophile (had sex with a 9 year old girl; when he was in his 50's), liar, thief, wife stealer and murderer. Muhammad even found a way to get 20% of all captured booty, and to have all those murdered who disagreed with him.

Learn the truth about Islam, from mostly what Islamic historians have said. Read, "Muhammad, Terrorists or Prophet?"

So Articulates how are these two remotely the same?



Link:
http://prorege-forum.com/forum_entry.php?id=5392



And He will always protect Israel from any attempts to annihilate her.
This is true even today.

 

[PBTree]

Absolutely incomprehensible. That anyone with an IQ above, or even remotely close to room temperature, could use the 'holey' book as a reference to fact, when talking about such things as noah's ark. I find it beyond belief that simple common sense doesn't take over when reading this book.

Its a BOOK for pity's sake. It was written by smelly, pick their nose, scratch their bum, farting, superstitious, run of the mill humans.

It wasn't written by any deity and just reading it, no deity would want to be associated with the absolute tripe and carnage that is inside it.

Wine was the drink of the day(s) when this was supposedly penned, so I think all of the authors were most definitely "in their cups".

Facts will win the day here, not some nonsense from a book that even theists don't agree on. eg The OT is all true. No its not, Yes it is. Well some of it is but not the bad parts. But the NT, now that is all true. sigh.....

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The call to wipe out the Amalekites was issued by God before Christ, during a time when God was protecting and preserving the Jewish people.

So the Jewish people was worth more than the other people, and since it needed Lebensraum, the Amalekties had to be wiped out for the survival of the Master Race.

I wonder, if you'll pardon the Godwin, if Joshua said "Sieg Heil" instead of Halleluja when praising God.

· The Amalekites were to be punished, because they were wicked.

AGAIN, lots of people today are wicked. Why is this not a reason to genocide them when it was back then? You didn't answer this the last time I asked.

How "wicked" does a people have to be to deserve genocide, edge?

The Amalekites did not fear God; instead, they attacked the weakest of God's people.

Considering the number of people slaughtered by the Isrealites on God's command according to the Old Testament... hark who's talking.

I also don't see how an almighty God failed to keep his people safe by nonviolent means. It seems death is always the first resort by God, not the last.

There are six other passages like this one that embrace what is referred to as "the ban," where everyone is to be killed and everything is to be destroyed.

How cozy. I see we're dealing with a Religion of Peace(TM).

William F. Albright, a famous archeologist, once described their religion as "perhaps the most depraved religion known to man."

So Abrahamic faith, despite its best efforts, sees itself beaten once again. Sad.

Because, Amalekites were the first pagan terrorists who were hell-bent on wiping out Israel - the real God's Covenant people.

So was Germany in WWII. They made it an industry to kill as many Jews as possible and ended up slaughtering six million of them. If you had lived in the forties, would you be in favor of the genocide of every German man, woman, child and animal, edge?

Sorry, couldn't read past that, for the simple reason that it's pretty much the most racist trash I've read in my life. The fact that anyone in 2008 can write and believe something like this... it's just jaw-dropping and quite frankly barbaric.

Amalekites have much in common with the hate filled satanically-inspired Muslims of today

Nice people you're quoting today, edge.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The problem in the nutshell is this:

God CANNOT commit any unjust act.

When you've declared a person or deity to be good no matter what, you've stepped outside the boundaries of rationality and morality and become, essentially, a slave applauding that deity's every whim. "Good" and "evil" lose their meaning entirely.

And for crying out loud, edge... saying "my god's stronger/more loving/better in every way than your god" does nothing to address the question of whether or not He exists! Your God divided oceans? Well, my God, Hope 60, one blew to pieces an entirely galaxy, strangled God to death, and made the universe end for then to restart it, all without us noticing. And you should've seen the miracles performed by his angels the Jannickes. They were the ones to build the fjords! People were there and saw it!

Evidently, since I can think up bigger miracles and powers for my imaginary god and prophets than you can, this means he exists and God doesn't. By your reasoning.

Christians & Jewish martyrs say; "I will die for what I believe."

A Muslim martyr says; "you will die for what I believe."

Read up on the Jewish terrorists in British Palestine prior to and during World War II, edge. They bombed hotels, planted IEDs that took out cars and trains, assassinated people, and started fires.

I truly can't understand how on Earth people can make themselves believe Christianity and Judaism are peaceful religions while Islam isn't (especially after condonig genocides you believe the Jews carried out!). The amount of brianwashing and ignorance that must be involved is staggering.

 

[articulett]

The witch hunts showed that Christians can and do kill others for what they believe. Always have. Heard of sectarian violence? The crusades?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Speaking about the real biblical God (not the fake hate filled Allah).

Allah and God are the same guy. "Allah" is simply their word for God - I believe Christians and Jews call "God" "Allah", too, when speaking Arabic. It's kinda like how the Germans call God "Gott", the Norwegians call Him "Gud", etc.

Edge, why are you quoting this bigoted, racist, genocide-approving idiot?

What makes the Amalekites particularly interesting is that these two characteristics are always glaringly present when an Amalekite is involved in any Biblical story.

The Amalekite are consistently regarded in a negative way in the book that advocates their genocide? Who'd have thought. Next you'll tell me My Struggle says nothing good about the Jews.

in the Muslim Qur'an/Koran are 'divine' commandments to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death.

Likewise in the Old Testament. Your freaking point?

Nowhere in the Bible is the name "Allah".

*facepalm*

 

[Foster Zygote]

So Edge, how wicked were the babies? Even if the described events could be shown to have any archaeological corroboration doesn't it strike you as a bit suspicious that the people who were slaughtered in the stories were described as wicked by the people who slaughtered them? A great many Hutus refereed to Tutsis as "cockroaches". The Nazis described Jews and other hated minorities as less than human. To the KKK anyone with dark skin is a mentally inferior savage. Do you really think the writers of the Biblical genocide tales would say "They were people pretty much like us; with the same sorts of hopes and fears, love of family etcetera. But we murdered every single one of them anyway"? Of course not. They had to dehumanize their enemies to absolve themselves of guilt.

I used to think that you were basically a good hearted person who was just too obstinate and indoctrinated to acknowledge the horror of acts attributed to the Abrahamic god. But now I'm beginning to have troublesome doubts. So many of history's ethnic slaughters were facilitated by people who simply said "I'm not in a position to judge the authority figure's decisions".

Look closely at the image below and ask yourself why you don't see famous religious artworks depicting the glory of God's ordered slaughter of children. Imagine that the dead child pictured is not a Tutsi, but one of the "wicked Amalekites" that so offended your god. If you saw such an image thousands of years ago, and truly believed that it was done on your god's orders, would you condemn your god or praise his glory? Would you question the actions of your leaders who assured you that they were acting according to God's will?

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I get the feeling Foster Zygote won the thread.

 

[Frozenwolf150]

Edge, the line reasoning you are defending and advocating appears to be this. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong at any point.

1) God is good.
2) Our God is the one true God.
3) Followers of other religions worship other gods.
4) Since our God is the one true God, these other gods are false gods.
5) False gods are really the devils and demons our God opposes.
6) Since God opposes devils and demons, the people who worship them must be evil / sub-human.
7) It follows that these people do not deserve to exist.
8) Therefore by killing them we are carrying out God's will.

My questions are the same as before. How is it moral to think this way? What kind of atrocities could not be justified in this way? Once you dehumanize your enemies, it's easy to claim in retrospect that any horrific treatment you subjected them to was deserved.

Besides, if we were to catch the God of the bible ordering his people to kidnap, rape, torture, and murder other human beings, at any time for whatever reason, would you condemn him and his followers by the same standards as you've condemned Baal? Or Allah?

 

[skeptic of oz]

There's a loooong thread on this a couple pages back, if even that. The most compelling evidence against the Ark, in my view, is that it bears an uncanny resemblance to the Epic of Gilgamesh - which is fictional.

True and also to the flood myths of many other ancient cultures.

James Randi used the analogy of "unsinkable ducks" when referring to those who believe in the paranormal and I think the same can be said aboiut believers in Noah's Ark.

Mmmm...now when's the next "archaelogical" expedition?

 

[edge]

Safe-Keeper, Foster Zygote.

My relatives have had genocides happen to them in W.W.2 so don't give me any of your crap.

I don't condone the killing of any one and will still walk with God.

Do you really think the writers of the Biblical genocide tales would say "They were people pretty much like us; with the same sorts of hopes and fears, love of family etcetera. But we murdered every single one of them anyway"?

Have you read what their hopes were?
These were the equivalent of satin worshippers killing children and using their own as sacrificial candles.and anyone elses child that they could get.


The Hebrews lived with them and visa-versa.
How do you miss that when that's what they did, they lived among them and when in a prior foreign land as slaves, they (some of the Hebrews) worshiped those same Gods.?
Then were punished the same way?



Judges 10: 6: And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon, and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him.

Numbers 25: 1: And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. 2: And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. 3: And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.

They weren’t immune,

Ancients were led by Satan to kill their children for personal convenience and gain, while engaging in promiscuity. Modern Baal worshipers-a.k.a. abortionists - have slaughtered millions for the same reasons. Do such abortionists care for the welfare of the mother? Do they warn of the increased risk of cancer? In fact they have tried to cover it up.

Seems to me that the liberals are doing the same thing today and allowing it to happen, and your picture is same thing that was happening then and now and will continue, for a time.
Not my doing and I still can’t judge the creator of the universe on his call.

The bottom line is that God kept his promise to Israel and no man or nation was to change those future events that where already in place.

Jesus when asked about the end times replied; it will be the same then as it was in Noah’s days.

This is being played out even now,(look around), and the other promise is that no nation will take their land is also prophesy. This we may witness soon and the results there after.

I believe these are the best defense:
· God's decision to judge the Amalekites came over 400 years after they had been warned.


· The call to wipe out the Amalekites was issued by God before Christ, during a time when God was protecting and preserving the Jewish people.


· Remember: God chose Abraham and promised that through his descendants he would bless the world.


· It is through the Jewish bloodline that Christ will be born; therefore, in the Old Testament we find God going to great lengths to preserve the bloodline

The last one is the most important and was played out all the way through Christ’s life. Herod comes to mind and kills his own set of people and children.

· This is one of the passages that critics turn to when they want to dismiss the Christian God as nothing more than a tribal war deity or argue that religion causes violence.


· By entering this discussion, we are asking God to justify his actions.


· It says something about us that we are more concerned with God's behavior than with our own—that we are judging him rather than worrying about him judging us.

32 Then Samuel said, "Bring me Agag king of the Amalekites."
Agag came to him confidently, [c] thinking, "Surely the bitterness of death is past."
33 But Samuel said,
"As your sword has made women childless,
so will your mother be childless among women."
And Samuel put Agag to death before the LORD at Gilgal.
Whose children? So who was attacking whom first and what were they promoting, “the Amalekites”?
Human sacrifice, sacrifice children by burning them to death, taking other peoples children when plundering.
Killing others children.
So what you say the Hebrew were did to the Amalekites they were doing it to children of the Hebrews along with their own child sacrifices to Baal..

Some of these pepole were assimilated into the Hebrew culture and redeemed themselves, repented. Some Hebrews did the same and assimilated in the other cultures.
So they where never totally wipe out.

·

Option Number Four is simply that the passage means what it says, and we just do not get it, because we look at things quite differently than God does.
· Our human view is that this life is more valuable than anything else—and that God somehow owes it to us.
· God's view is that all we are owed is punishment for our rebellion and selfishness—that life is a gift he can give or take; that he has authority over all things, including us; that he owns all things by virtue of the fact that he created them.
· Please understand: the issue of infants and children being killed in the battle is not the "take your breath away" issue here in the end, because I believe they go to be with God.
· In the case of the Amalekites—a culture that sacrificed their own children—I suspect that ending the life of those born there and ushering them into eternity was probably one of the most merciful things he could do.

25 Yet if you persist in doing evil, both you and your king will be swept away.



Before the battle you are talking about, this battle with the Philistine.



22 So on the day of the battle not a soldier with Saul and Jonathan had a sword or spear in his hand; only Saul and his son Jonathan had them.

So Saul’s son goes out to do battle on his own.
6 Jonathan said to his young armor-bearer, "Come, let's go over to the outpost of those uncircumcised fellows. Perhaps the LORD will act in our behalf. Nothing can hinder the LORD from saving, whether by many or by few."
7 "Do all that you have in mind," his armor-bearer said. "Go ahead; I am with you, heart and soul."
8 Jonathan said, "Come, then; we will cross over toward the men and let them see us. 9 If they say to us, 'Wait there until we come to you,' we will stay where we are and not go up to them. 10 But if they say, 'Come up to us,' we will climb up, because that will be our sign that the LORD has given them into our hands."
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=9&chapter=14&version=31

11 So both of them showed themselves to the Philistine outpost. "Look!" said the Philistines. "The Hebrews are crawling out of the holes they were hiding in." 12 The men of the outpost shouted to Jonathan and his armor-bearer, "Come up to us and we'll teach you a lesson."
So Jonathan said to his armor-bearer, "Climb up after me; the LORD has given them into the hand of Israel."
Israel Routs the Philistines
15 Then panic struck the whole army—those in the camp and field, and those in the outposts and raiding parties—and the ground shook. It was a panic sent by God.
16 Saul's lookouts at Gibeah in Benjamin saw the army melting away in all directions. 17 Then Saul said to the men who were with him, "Muster the forces and see who has left us." When they did, it was Jonathan and his armor-bearer who were not there.
13 Jonathan climbed up, using his hands and feet, with his armor-bearer right behind him. The Philistines fell before Jonathan, and his armor-bearer followed and killed behind him. 14 In that first attack Jonathan and his armor-bearer killed some twenty men in an area of about half an acre. [a]
20 Then Saul and all his men assembled and went to the battle. They found the Philistines in total confusion, striking each other with their swords. 21 Those Hebrews who had previously been with the Philistines and had gone up with them to their camp went over to the Israelites who were with Saul and Jonathan.

46 Then Saul stopped pursuing the Philistines, and they withdrew to their own land.
47 After Saul had assumed rule over Israel, he fought against their enemies on every side: Moab, the Ammonites, Edom, the kings [h] of Zobah, and the Philistines. Wherever he turned, he inflicted punishment on them. 48 He fought valiantly and defeated the Amalekites, delivering Israel from the hands of those who had plundered them .

So you have a problem with God protecting the bloodline of Christ the redeemer?


Genocid is still going on, your picture proves that, the war in the Middle East proves that, the famine in the world is worst than ever.
War is a bad thing and it affects every one.


But like you say you would kill for your son.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

My relatives have had genocides happen to them in W.W.2 so don't give me any of your crap.

Funny, it seems to me that you being a descendant of victims of attempted genocide makes you more unsuited, not less, to advocate the genocide of others.

I don't condone the killing of any one.

Defending genocide is in fact condoning the killing of others, edge.

Have you read what their hopes were? [And so on]

You didn't get the point, edge. Again, why do you trust the Old Testament for information on the people massacred by the writers of the Old Testament. Again, this is no more rational than me reading KKK documents for information on Afro-Americans, or My Struggle for info on the Jews.

Ancients were led by Satan to kill their children for personal convenience and gain, while engaging in promiscuity. Modern Baal worshipers-a.k.a. abortionists - have slaughtered millions for the same reasons. Do such abortionists care for the welfare of the mother? Do they warn of the increased risk of cancer? In fact they have tried to cover it up.

Seems to me that the liberals are doing the same thing today and allowing it to happen

Bullocks and shoehorning.

They weren’t immune

I know that. I've read the passage where Moses comes across his people worshiping the Golden Calf. What most Christians accidentally leave out is that he then proceeded to slaughter 3000 of them. I know Moses and God were prone to take out their tempers on their own people. I fail, however, to see how this in any way condones the massacres of others.

you would kill for your son

If someone tried to kill my hypothetical offspring, I might have ended up killing that person in self-defence. I would not, however, proceed to also kill his wife, dog, and children and burn down his house.

Again, in World War II, should the Allies have killed every single resident of Germany to "protect the bloodline of Christ", since the Germans were trying to wipe out the Jews?

 

[Foster Zygote]

Safe-Keeper, Foster Zygote.

My relatives have had genocides happen to them in W.W.2 so don't give me any of your crap.

And I have ancestors who had genocide practiced on them by the United States government. The difference is that you are the one who used the term "justifiable genocide" to refer to the reported slaughter of women and children on the command of God.

I don't condone the killing of any one and will still walk with God.

I'm sorry Edge, but describing a genocidal act as "justifiable" is in fact condoning killing. And it isn't like condoning the killing of a murderer who was about to kill your family, it's condoning the killing of innocent children and babies. Or are you saying that you still walk with God, but consider his past actions to have been evil?

Have you read what their hopes were?
These were the equivalent of satin worshipers killing children and using their own as sacrificial candles.and anyone else's child that they could get.

First of all, it's "Satan", "satin" is a cloth.

Canaanites killing children = evil.
Hebrews killing more children = good.

Is that what you're saying? Even putting aside the suspicious nature of the portrayal of the Canaanites as evil by the people who claim to have utterly slaughtered them, if they were killing children, how is it right that the Hebrews respond by killing children?

The Hebrews lived with them and visa-versa.
How do you miss that when that's what they did, they lived among them and when in a prior foreign land as slaves, they (some of the Hebrews) worshiped those same Gods.?
Then were punished the same way?



Judges 10: 6: And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the LORD, and served Baalim, and Ashtaroth, and the gods of Syria, and the gods of Zidon, and the gods of Moab, and the gods of the children of Ammon, and the gods of the Philistines, and forsook the LORD, and served not him.

Numbers 25: 1: And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. 2: And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. 3: And Israel joined himself unto Baal-peor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.

So, worshiping the wrong gods is justification for slaughter?

They weren’t immune,

Do you have a source for this random bit of religious diatribe?

So you have a problem with God protecting the bloodline of Christ the redeemer?

All that ramble was leading up to this one point so let's skip a bit.
You are now fixing on the apologetic that God had to slaughter women and children was necessary to protect the savior's bloodline which was the hope of humankind's future. Honestly Edge, this is one of the sickest things I've ever read. I hate to Godwin threads, but as we are discussing genocide I feel it is appropriate. Hitler claimed that the unpleasant business of exterminating the Jews was necessary to protect the Arian bloodline which was the hope of humankind's future.

Genocid is still going on, your picture proves that, the war in the Middle East proves that, the famine in the world is worst than ever.
War is a bad thing and it affects every one.

Yes, Edge, that was my whole point in posting that image. I wanted you to picture in your head what your holy book claims that your god commanded his followers to do. Do you think that everything your god does is good and must be praised? Do you picture a dead Canaanite child, much like the one in the image, and say "praise be to God"?

But like you say you would kill for your son.

I like how you quote mine in an attempt to establish the moral high ground for yourself. Let's look at what I actually said:

My first instinct is to leave it alone. Most snakes are harmless and the vipers around here just want to be left alone. But if I had to kill a diamond back to protect my son I would not hesitate. Would you? Like Tricky, I value a human life above a snake's. What I wouldn't do is kill innocent families because they worshiped the "wrong" gods and I wanted to live on their land.

I said that if I had to choose between the life of a deadly snake and the life of my son, I would choose my son. In fact, if the only option was to take the strike in place of my son I would do that. I would still prefer that the encounter end with the snake going its way and my son and I going ours.

I'm perfectly willing to let my "I'd kill a snake to save my son if I had to" comment stand beside your "justifiable genocide" comment in the court of public opinion.

 

[Foster Zygote]

What most Christians accidentally leave out is that he then proceeded to slaughter 3000 of them.

What's even sicker is that Moses first talks God out of taking his anger out on the Hebrews, then orders those loyal to him to slaughter their brothers, sons and neighbors.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

And another point: Pardon me, but it seems to me that if you have an army large enough to exterminate a people, it's not that people that poses a threat to you - it's rather the other way around. If a huge senior football player in a High School beats up a tiny unarmed freshman kid, he can't claim in hindsight that it was in "self-defence".