Noah's Ark

False teachings are not Christain.
That is funny, I seen a hell of a lot of false christain teaching on TV. Also at church when I was young and made to go to bible school where the only thing that made any sense there was making things out of ice-cream sticks and white glue.

They lie about the age of the earth, evolution etc.

Paul

:) :) :)
 
From what I have read, the Nazis used religion as a political tool. I seriously doubt the Fuhrer was a church goer.
But the "Gott mit uns" certainly was a nice touch to entice religious followers. It doesn't necessarily mean those who wore it were believers or non-believers.

I was referring to the ambiguity of language in the bible, and in particular the "dashing...stones" story, and the spin given in the link I posted. Religion permits any reading one wants, and that's why it is not productive to argue the stuff. IMHO, of course.
 
I like how you leave out the parts that are real bad like; These were the equivalent of Satan worshippers killing children and using their own as sacrificial candles, and anyone else’s child that they could get.
Soddimites?
(snip)

Not all the Jews were bad same with the Italians and the Germans.
It is the people in power that abuse their authority.
Okay, so you claim to know for a FACT that all of the people comprising the rival tribes that the Israelites waged war with were irredeemably evil, so you argue in favor of genocide. Then you claim that not all people living within the Axis powers were evil, and it was mostly their leaders who were bad, so you argue against genocide. There's a blatant double standard here. Also, how do you know this for a fact? Are you claiming omniscience for yourself, or is it just a matter of blindly believing everything the winners of a genocide wrote to justify their actions?

There are two sides in the battle there are the ones in the right and there are the those that are wrong.
Did it ever occur to you that the Israelites were also wrong? Or is your argument based on the preschool mentality that two wrongs make a right?

You may as well argue that the final judgment is genocide too when all evil is put down forever.
See above. You have a better chance of making a right by taking three lefts than you do by slaughtering more and more people until the problem goes away. Killing off everything that lives would destroy everything evil, but also everything good. If you're going to argue that no, good is still around because of the afterlife, well then the same is true for evil, and God wouldn't really put down all evil by slaughtering everyone, would he?
 
If god is omniscient and knows how it's all going to end up... why doesn't he just start the eternity business now?
 
According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and Darwinism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, receiving Confirmation only unwillingly. A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.

Notable Hitler biographer John Toland writes of Hitler's religion and its effect: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god..."


There is less controversy about other statements. Joseph Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: "The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay." Albert Speer reports a similar statement: “You see, it’s been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn’t we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"[17] In the Hossbach Memorandum Hitler is recorded as saying that "only the disintegrating effect of Christianity, and the symptoms of age" were responsible for the demise of the Roman Empire.[18] In 1941, Hitler praised an anti-Christian tract from 362, Julian's Against the Galileans, saying "I really hadn't known how clearly a man like Julian had judged Christians and Christianity, one must read this..."[19]


Hitler advocated Positive Christianity, traditional Christianity purged of everything that he found objectionable. Hitler never directed his attacks on Jesus himself,[21] but viewed traditional Christianity as a corruption of the original ideas of Jesus, whom Hitler regarded as an Aryan opponent of the Jews.


Hitler believed in Arthur de Gobineau's ideas of struggle for survival between the different races, among which the "Aryan race" — guided by "Providence" — was supposed to be the torchbearers of civilization. In Hitler's conception Jews were enemies of all civilization.

In 1998 documents were released by Cornell University from the Nuremberg Trials that revealed Nazi plans to exterminate Christianity at the end of [[World War II[29] The documents cover the Nuremberg trials of leading Nazis and demonstrate the deliberate genocide of Jews during the Holocaust, in which some six million Jews were killed. One senior member of the U.S. prosecution team, General William Donovan, as part of his work on documenting Nazi war crimes, compiled large amounts of documentation that the Nazis also planned to systematically destroy Christianity.[30]

Donovan's documents include almost 150 bound volumes currently stored at Cornell University after his death in 1959, these documents state

"Important leaders of the National Socialist party would have liked to meet this situation [church influence] by complete extirpation of Christianity and the substitution of a purely racial religion," said an OSS report in July 1945. "The best evidence now available as to the existence of an anti-Church plan is to be found in the systematic nature of the persecution itself.

They also show the different steps involved in the persecution, including the campaign to suppress denominational and youth organizations, denominational schools, and the use of defamation against the clergy, orchestrated to started on the same day over the Reich and supported by the press, Nazi Party meetings and by traveling party speakers.[31][32] The documents show that the Nazis early on wanted the churches neutralized because they feared that the Churches would oppose Nazi plans based on racism and aggressive wars. The Nazis planned to infiltrate churches and use defamation, arrest and assault or the killing of pastors plus the re-education of church congregations. They also suppressed denominational schools and Christian youth organizations.

Hitler was opposed to state atheism, which for example was part of the political system of the Soviet Union, but he nevertheless desired a religiously neutral state system, at least during the years of his dictatorship.[36] He feared the political power that the churches had, and did not want to openly antagonize that political base until he had securely gained control of the country. Once in power Hitler showed his contempt for religion and sought to eliminate it from areas under his rule.

Thanks for the link blauregen

Foster zagote says,
So the suicide bomber is three years old? Actually, your scenario doesn't make the least bit of sense. It is a rambling, disjointed fantasy. Even if the bomber is older, if I shoot him with the crossbow, or gun, or trebuchet, or Wookie bowcaster etc. how is he then going to go on to kill others with his bomb?
He is not if you take him out, you kill the one terrorist, in turn it saves many generations of the innocent.

They are teaching their children to do this, not only that, but it is a form of suicide.

False teachings.


20 "But I did obey the LORD," Saul said. "I went on the mission the LORD assigned me. I completely destroyed the Amalekites and brought back Agag their king. 21 The soldiers took sheep and cattle from the plunder, the best of what was devoted to God, in order to sacrifice them to the LORD your God at Gilgal."


19 Why did you not obey the LORD ? Why did you pounce on the plunder and do evil in the eyes of the LORD ?"


22 But Samuel replied:
"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD ?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.

Sam. 15:8). They also attacked the Israelites at Hormah (Num. 14:45). Saul and his army destroyed most of the people, and earned Samuel's wrath for leaving some of the people and livestock alive (1 Sam. 15:8-9) against the Lord's command. Saul and the tribal leaders also hesitated to kill Agag, so Samuel executed the Amalekite king himself.


Maimonides explains, however, that the commandment of killing out the nation of Amalek requires the Jewish people to peacefully request of them to accept upon themselves the Noachide laws and pay a tax to the Jewish kingdom. Only if they refuse is the commandment applicable.


"David waged a sacred war of extermination against the Amalekites," who may have subsequently disappeared from history. Long after, in the time of Hezekiah, five hundred Simeonites annihilated the last remnant "of the Amalekites that had escaped" on Mount Seir, and settled in their place (1 Chr. 4:42-43).

Saul disobeyed the order, as we all would have.



From Paul’s link.
Jews, of course, were not the only "holy" victims. In Yugoslavia, Hitler installed a Croatian, Ante Pavelic, as his puppet, and Pavelic, a Catholic like Hitler, began extermination of the Serbs, who were Greek Orthodox. One of my relatives by marriage is a Yugoslavian, a Serb, who survived World War II by going "underground" with the advent of Nazism in his country. Out of his immediate family of 17 (this includes his parents, siblings, aunts, uncles and first cousins), only three survived. His mother and sister just disappeared, his mother shortly after being given the opportunity to convert to Catholicism, an offer she refused. The Vatican was not unaware of the massacres conducted in Yugoslavia In the name of Catholicism, but Pope Pius remained diplomatically quiet. In fact, one of his actions was to receive Ante Pavelic in private audience, thereby giving his blessing to this regime.

Yugoslavian, a Serb, So was my father.
750,000 where killed. The Catholics were give a ransom for eyeballs cut out of Serbs heads, there were many bushel baskets filled with them turned in These are things left out of the history books.
My mother was half French and Half German, her father was in France and married before the war started, when the Germans invaded France and found him, learned, that he was a German, they then shipped him to the Russian front and was never seen or heard from again.

My mother and her mother and sisters were sent to a concentration camp that was liberated by the Americans.

The Catholics have a lot of false doctrines also.


I don't condone it but I still will not judge God and we can't see what the reasons were, only he knows what in the future these people where going to do and were capable of. Obviously their direct linage was a danger of some sort and how it was to be played out against the Hebrews or Gods plan is irrelevant since we have survived it.
Gods plan was fulfilled against them. It was demonstrated in miraculous ways.
So was his promise to the Hebrews and they didn’t even see it or at least the ones in power.
Some of these people’s genes are blended into all the surrounding societies that where present in that part of the world, as were the Hebrew peoples.
You have to remember that their name was eliminated from the world in the sense that they had no heritage no one can say this is the Amalekites country dog cattle or he is an Amalekite.


so you argue in favor of genocide. Then you claim that not all people living within the Axis powers were evil, and it was mostly their leaders who were bad, so you argue against genocide. There's a blatant double standard here. Also, how do you know this for a fact? Are you claiming omniscience for yourself, or is it just a matter of blindly believing everything the winners of genocide wrote to justify their actions?
That’s explained above my mothers linage her father and all of the surviving Germans today that were mislead. Many fled the country before the war.
No I do not. There is not enough information for me to say God was wrong.
Not even I can know all of the mind and thoughts of God.
God has kept many things hidden from the world so that faith can continue.


If he didn’t do this and it is repeated in the bible many times (he Hides things from us) and from the ones that wanted to suppress Christ’s mission especially. Herod would have killed the new king of the Jews before he accomplished redemption, salvation, and forgiveness for us all.

But some time in the future he will with out a doubt, demonstrate it to us all, if we live long enough to see it, that he is God visually.
If we don’t, we will see it anyway when we die, personally.

Did it ever occur to you that the Israelites were also wrong? Or is your argument based on the preschool mentality that two wrongs make a right?

They were wrong in many ways and many times, but not all are responsible for deaths of the past or that their ancestors didn’t all recognize the Messiah.
They are later conquered again by the Romans for disobedience.
After Christ the empire of Rome falls and Christianity replaces their beliefs.

Something that the anti-Jew, mindset, or anti-Semitics didn’t understand eh, do unto others as you would have done to you.


Okay, so you claim to know for a FACT that all of the people comprising the rival tribes that the Israelites waged war with were irredeemably evil, so you argue in favor of genocide.

The fact is that all the tribes weren’t evil since there was a blending of the races on both sides of the fence..

Maimonides explains, however, that the commandment of killing out the nation of Amalek requires the Jewish people to peacefully request of them to accept upon themselves the Noachide laws and pay a tax to the Jewish kingdom. Only if they refuse is the commandment applicable.
 
If god is omniscient and knows how it's all going to end up... why doesn't he just start the eternity business now?

Why you ready to die?

Clarify?

If I understand you right Christ did that.

If you are talking about the second coming you'll have to wait or die?

This is why we all live to a different age.

He allows us grace through time.
 
Why you ready to die?

Clarify?

If I understand you right Christ did that.

If you are talking about the second coming you'll have to wait or die?

This is why we all live to a different age.

He allows us grace through time.

Edge, god is omniscient, yes? Therefore he knows EXACTLY who is going to heaven before they are born. He could change it if he wanted to but he knows who will be good and who will be evil, whatever his definitions are.

So....why life? I don't get it, why not just sort people into heaven and hell now? It isn't like living will make a difference. On the contrary, he knows exactly what everyone will do at every point during that persons life. So why bother with this charade?
 
Edge, god is omniscient, yes? Therefore he knows EXACTLY who is going to heaven before they are born. He could change it if he wanted to but he knows who will be good and who will be evil, whatever his definitions are.

So....why life? I don't get it, why not just sort people into heaven and hell now? It isn't like living will make a difference. On the contrary, he knows exactly what everyone will do at every point during that persons life. So why bother with this charade?


I don't think that the idea of an omniscient god in the sense of being omniscient not only about all that is, but also about all that will be, can be coherent if we keep God in our frame of reference. It could work if we imagine God to be outside the frame of reference provided by space and time..

In this case we could postulate that God's at least 4-dimensional creation is indeed completed, but that we as entities who move unilateral among the time-axis didn't yet reach the position of the final judgement.
 
edge said:
[Looong article
Er, copyright laws?

According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and Darwinism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, receiving Confirmation only unwillingly.
My little rule of thumb (still in "hypothesis stage"): if someone uses the straw term "Darwinism", they don't have a clue as to what they're talking about. Nothing's disproven it so far:).

And no, edge, "Darwinism" ( :rolleyes: ) was not where Hitler got his ideas of eugenics - animal breeding was. You know how the dog as a species is many thousand years old? People long before Darwin knew that you could eliminate traits by selective breeding. And yes, Hitler was indeed a Christian.

A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.
So? Do you have to do these things to be a believing Christian now? In that case, I can promise you that there are far less than two billion Christians in the world.

So the suicide bomber is three years old? Actually, your scenario doesn't make the least bit of sense. It is a rambling, disjointed fantasy. Even if the bomber is older, if I shoot him with the crossbow, or gun, or trebuchet, or Wookie bowcaster etc. how is he then going to go on to kill others with his bomb?
He is not if you take him out, you kill the one terrorist, in turn it saves many generations of the innocent.

They are teaching their children to do this, not only that, but it is a form of suicide.
Why are you ignoring my answer to this scenario, edge?

They lie about the age of the earth, evolution etc.
You forgot the myths about Noah's ark, Jericho, the splitting seas, the many innocents massacred by God in Egypt (no, let me guess, every single Egyptian was evil, too:rolleyes:)...

No I do not. There is not enough information for me to say God was wrong.
How much more information do you need? According to the myth, He's omnipotent and could thus have chosen any resort other than violence. Violence should be seen as a last resort. Thus, to God, it should never be necessary. It's that simple.
 
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Thank you, Edge, for confirming all I ever believed about the Bible, and reinforcing my belief that religion is a tool of evil.
 
If god is omniscient and knows how it's all going to end up... why doesn't he just start the eternity business now?


Because he can't.
By definition, an omniscient god knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen.
Which means he can not change his mind, or alter the course of events. Otherwise his knowledge would be wrong, and he wouldn't be omniscient.
It certainly rules out omnipotenct, because he is not powerful enough to change things.

Essentially, being omniscient reduces god to the level of a tool, operating on shcedule, but incapable of doing anything original.
 
I don't condone the killing of any one and will still walk with God.

Again off topic.
I'm not in a position to judge Gods decisions if in fact it is.
I don't condone killing anything-even bugs.

You've contradicted yourself in two successive lines.

A) You are not in a position to judge God's position. Well, God's position includes genocide (as "evidenced" multiple times in the bible.

B) You don't condone killing anything. But you *do* seem to condone killing many, mnay people, if it is God's decision (see "A"). So, make up your mind. Are you a pacifist, or are you religious? It doesn't seem that you can be both.....
 
And this God has carte blanche to do anything He likes as far as you are concerned? You will be perfectly happy to discard any moral objections? I find this position hard to respect. In my opinion, good person will oppose immoral actions regardless of where they come from.

Ah, but Tricky, this is where they get you. See, if the statement/decision/action comes from God, then according to the religious nuts it is de facto moral, by definition. Anything at all can be justified and considered "moral", it only has to come from divine influence.

(No, I don't get it either.)
 
Ah, but Tricky, this is where they get you. See, if the statement/decision/action comes from God, then according to the religious nuts it is de facto moral, by definition. Anything at all can be justified and considered "moral", it only has to come from divine influence.

(No, I don't get it either.)
.
"Lucy, lemme 'splain"... Oops, wrong sitcom.
The number of "statement/decision/action"(s) coming -from- God is either zero, or none.
The number of these "heavenly pronouncements" coming from lunatics and con-men fills entire bookshelves and fills St. Peter's plaza all the time with the faithful waiting for the next con to buy into.l
Saul's dilemma for instance was Samuel shouting "God's" commands, which if one reads the Book as history, Samuel is only a raving lunatic standing on a street corner yelling at the passing traffic.
Today, he'd be locked up with Abraham, with lots of medications.
Those that buy into religion -must- toss out their ability to discern b.s., bedazzled by the thrill of "eternal life" they just got scammed with.
It's of no higher an intellectual achievement than joining a car club devoted to Chevys, and spouting the mantra "I'd rather be dead than ride in a Ford!".
Same dismemberment of the intellect.
 
Sure... what's death but a beginning to the journey of happily ever after? The young 'uns never have to experience the strife of the "life test" god makes the rest of the folks go through--it's zippity split up to heaven for them (they are his favorites, you know... and he "needs another angel") Or so the theists tell me. But what do I know... I've never been able to make much sense of any of it. Why wouldn't relatively strife-free short lives trump long strife-filled lives if the goal was to get to the "eternal paradise"? What does it matter when you start your "eternity" as long as you get there, right? What better way to get there than to die young?

I'm gone use this (by your leave) in the embryo debate here.:rolleyes:

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2008/05/cabinet_split_looms_over_embry.php
 
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Thank you, Edge, for confirming all I ever believed about the Bible, and reinforcing my belief that religion is a tool of evil.

Religion is a tool Just like a cresent wrench you can use it for it's purpose or bash some ones head in with it.
You've contradicted yourself in two successive lines.

A) You are not in a position to judge God's position. Well, God's position includes genocide (as "evidenced" multiple times in the bible.

B) You don't condone killing anything. But you *do* seem to condone killing many, mnay people, if it is God's decision (see "A"). So, make up your mind. Are you a pacifist, or are you religious? It doesn't seem that you can be both.....

Ya I should have said except those that bring in disese like ants and roaches.
And nasty biting spiders.
If you say it doesn't seem, then you don't understand why Christ was, and that Gods covent changed and evloved.
Which means I can be both.

I Ratant, yes you do.

[X] I read your links or at least one they seem to be saying the same thing but theyt leave loop holes, so Oscomes razor says they must be anti-Christ worshipers who sacrificed childeren.

Safe keeper says:
My little rule of thumb (still in "hypothesis stage"): if someone uses the straw term "Darwinism", they don't have a clue as to what they're talking about. Nothing's disproven it so far.

And no, edge, "Darwinism" ( ) was not where Hitler got his ideas of eugenics - animal breeding was. You know how the dog as a species is many thousand years old? People long before Darwin knew that you could eliminate traits by selective breeding. And yes, Hitler was indeed a Christian.
Hitler advocated Positive Christianity, traditional Christianity purged of everything that he found objectionable.

He was doing this too:
My little rule of thumb (still in "hypothesis stage"):

Then this:
So? Do you have to do these things to be a believing Christian now? In that case, I can promise you that there are far less than two billion Christians in the world.

To do what man tells you to do to be a christain In the Caholic sense is false.
There is no man as an intermediate between god and man Christ fullfills that spot, not a pope.
His veiw point , (Hitler)was doomed before it began.

no, let me guess, every single Egyptian was evil, too)...

The rest of the amalakites?
They are still here aren't they?
They have also witnessed that they can't defeat Gods promise didn't they?
Some of them witnessed the angelic hosts protecting the Isralie army.
Do you remember that story?
God working in todays world.
 
Religion is a tool Just like a cresent wrench you can use it for it's purpose or bash some ones head in with it.
What is the function of the tool, religion?



[X] I read your links or at least one they seem to be saying the same thing but theyt leave loop holes, so Oscomes razor says they must be anti-Christ worshipers who sacrificed childeren.
I'm confused by this. What Link? And if I do understand correctly, how do you distinguish between an anti-christ child killer and a god-sanctioned child killer? The bible makes clear that the later exists (or at least existed). So, how can you make a judgement of other's actions. Especially since you have said later in your post:


There is no man as an intermediate between god and man Christ fullfills that spot, not a pope.
His veiw point , (Hitler)was doomed before it began.
If no man can go between god and man, then how can you claim that others are wrong and you are right. Aren't you acting as a go between? how can you know that the Pope isn't supposed to fulfill that role? All you are doing is asserting that you have the "one true interpretation". Not a very convincing argument.
 
Hitler advocated Positive Christianity, traditional Christianity purged of everything that he found objectionable.
So he was a Christian who obeyed only the parts of Christianity he liked (as do most Christians).

He was doing this too:
My little rule of thumb (still in "hypothesis stage"):
Er, what?
 

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