Noah's Ark

edge said:
Ya I should have said except those that bring in disese like ants and roaches.
And nasty biting spiders.
Click to expand...
Are you equating the children whom you claim were killed for the glory of your god with vermin?


Some of them witnessed the angelic hosts protecting the Isralie army.
Do you remember that story?
God working in todays world.
Click to expand...

During the rectification of the Vuldronaii, the Traveller came as a large and moving Torb.
Then, during the third reconciliation of the last of the Meketrex Supplicants,
they chose a new form for him -- that of a Giant Sloar!
Many Shubs and Zuuls knew what it was to be roasted in the depths of the Sloar that day I can tell you!

Do you remember that story?
 
edge said:
I don't condone it but I still will not judge God and we can't see what the reasons were, only he knows what in the future these people where going to do and were capable of. Obviously their direct linage was a danger of some sort and how it was to be played out against the Hebrews or Gods plan is irrelevant since we have survived it.
Gods plan was fulfilled against them. It was demonstrated in miraculous ways.
So was his promise to the Hebrews and they didn’t even see it or at least the ones in power.
Some of these people’s genes are blended into all the surrounding societies that where present in that part of the world, as were the Hebrew peoples.
You have to remember that their name was eliminated from the world in the sense that they had no heritage no one can say this is the Amalekites country dog cattle or he is an Amalekite.



That’s explained above my mothers linage her father and all of the surviving Germans today that were mislead. Many fled the country before the war.
No I do not. There is not enough information for me to say God was wrong.
Not even I can know all of the mind and thoughts of God.
God has kept many things hidden from the world so that faith can continue.
Click to expand...

A reminder of what I said on page 4:

Silentknight said:
You can't declare God to be beyond human judgment when it is precisely your own human judgment that you have already used to declare the Old Testament genocides to be just.
Click to expand...

So which is it? You can't judge God because there isn't enough information to say he was wrong-- yet at the same time you can make a judgment of absolute 100% certainty that he was right about the genocidal campaign he ordered against the Amalekites? How can you have all the information you need to judge God as just regarding a genocide that happened thousands of years ago, and yet not have enough information to judge God as unjust regarding events that happened in more recent history?

If you have a defense for your hypocritical argument, I think it's time you presented it.
 
 
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Safe-Keeper said:
So he was a Christian who obeyed only the parts of Christianity he liked (as do most Christians).

Er, what?
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Correct interpretations and not changing it to do your dirty work are two different things.
Because I am with Christ I can recognize the false from the true.

He was hiding behind the false Catholic Church.

I thought I… had a reading comprehension problem.
The whole out come everything is left up to him.



Are you equating the children whom you claim were killed for the glory of your god with vermin?
Click to expand...
Not even close!
I was talking about killing anything and how I feel, That I think about the death of an ant, they don’t know that they are bringing bacteria across you dishes an utensils from the out side and in your walls and your nastiest place in your house and transfer it.

What a dumb reason for that ant to die.
You can’t remember the writings in the past post?

I caught a mosquito hawk in my house the other day it was six inches across the wing span or more, it was the biggest one I ever seen.
I caught it , examined it and let it go.
It was amazing to see flying away.

Any way it was in answer to this:
Quote:
You've contradicted yourself in two successive lines.

A) You are not in a position to judge God's position. Well, God's position includes genocide (as "evidenced" multiple times in the bible.

B) You don't condone killing anything. But you *do* seem to condone killing many, mnay people, if it is God's decision (see "A"). So, make up your mind. Are you a pacifist, or are you religious? It doesn't seem that you can be both.....
It was his reply to this:

Originally Posted by edge

I don't condone the killing of any one and will still walk with God.
Originally Posted by edge
Again off topic.
I'm not in a position to judge Gods decisions if in fact it is.
I don't condone killing anything-even bugs.
Not all bugs at all times.
There I made a mistake ……Get it now?
I was letting him know that was my error.

Your next question Foster,..I can’t figure out?

I do know that you will kill for your son.
And the rest of humanity, if you could see ahead , in the future so to say, if you have to, …to save them… yes.



If no man can go between god and man, then how can you claim that others are wrong and you are right. Aren't you acting as a go between? how can you know that the Pope isn't supposed to fulfill that role? All you are doing is asserting that you have the "one true interpretation". Not a very convincing argument.
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You can minister and I give the glory to Christ not me.
You haven’t understood the words of Christ then.
I just see further and know what is right but I can’t see it all and don’t know everything.
I was an Orthodox to begin with so what don’t you get?
Serbian based orthodox derived from Greek Orthodoxy.



I believe you say that this is a fairy tail.
I always figured the Rhinos were close but here for a side track.
The unicorn, a horse-like creature with magical healing powers, has appeared in legends and stories throughout history, from ancient and medieval texts to the adventures of Harry Potter.

And you guys said they were myth?


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25097986/from/ET/wid/18298287/&GT1=43001
 
edge said:
[X] I read your links or at least one they seem to be saying the same thing but they leave loop holes, so Occam's razor says they must be anti-Christ worshipers who sacrificed childeren.
Click to expand...


1) Which link did you read?

2) Loop-holes? Can you give me an example? I will try to clarify them, if I can.

3) All I said was that Ba'al was a fertility god, and ritual sex was sometimes practiced during ceremonies to worship him. The webpages I linked agree on the fertility god part, but not all delve into worship practices. As I mentioned, however, my source was a book, not a webpage. If you really want it directly from the source, go buy the book I mentioned (Karen Armstrong: "A History of God"). It wouldn't hurt you to learn a little of the history of the god you follow.

4) Occam's razor therefore says they were anti-Christ child sacrificers? How in the three hells did you come to that conlcusion? You have a very funny idea of Occam's razor, Edge. For one thing, Ba'al worship predates Jesus by a long time. So you've made things more complicated by assuming the worshipers of Ba'al were somehow anti-Christ before this "Christ" fellow was even born! Additionally, is not the simplest explanaiotn that it was just another god among many? Remember, the Canaanites were Pagan, which means they had multiple gods. Furthermore, people thanked or made offerings to whichever god was in vogue in the region the individual lived in. If you moved, you changed gods. Abraham changed all that by specifying one god for everywhere and everything, and by declaring other worship practices "sinful". This is reflected in the Torah, with the laws against holding any other gods before YHWH, and the ban against idols or boiling calves in their mother's milk. But Ba'al worshipers being anti-Christ? Unless you can provide evidence that they rebelled against Jesus millenia before his birth, I'm going to say that such a conclusion is diametrically opposed to Occam's razor.



Edit: please use the multi-quote function, Edge. It will make parsing out your post much easier.
 
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Correct interpretations and not changing it to do your dirty work are two different things.
Click to expand...
Pretty much every single believer of every single organized religion out there has his own view of his religion. Many of them arrogantly believe their view to be the only true one.

Because I am with Christ I can recognize the false from the true.
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The members of the Catholics, Protestants, Methodists, and all the other denominations are all with Christ, edge. Hence the name Christian.

I do know that you will kill for your son.
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Are you on that tangent still? Why do you ignore our replies?
 
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If it's anti Christ/Christian now it also must of been anti God then.
How simple.
Sin started in the Old Testament with the first family.
All these people came from an original set of people /family.
If Sin is anti-Christian, is it not anti God?
 
edge said:
If it's anti Christ/Christian now it also must of been anti God then.
How simple.
Sin started in the Old Testament with the first family.
All these people came from an original set of people /family.
If Sin is anti-Christian, is it not anti God?
Click to expand...
How does this at all relate to this discussion?

You've claimed that you "know" what is the "true" teaching because you and christ are buddies.
However, I have catholics saying they know what the "true" teaching is.
We have Christian scientists saying what the true teaching is.
We have snake handlers saying what the true teaching is.
we have mormons saying what the true teaching is.
we have methodists, orthodox, baptists, pentacostals, non-denominationals, 7-day adventists, Jehovah Witnesses,.... and these are just christians.

They all claim to have the true teaching yet they all disagree. So, why should I or anyone take your claim as more true than others? Especially since you can't explain the simplest of points, "Why is god directed genocide moral?"

In truth, if there was an anti-christ, I would think that one of the first things he would claim that genocide and the killing of children was morally justifiable.
 
plumjam said:
:D

In most circumstances fish are ***t-hot at surviving a flood.
Click to expand...
I suggest a home experiment... Take a salt water fish and put it into a fresh water tank and then take a fresh water fish and put it into a salt water tank.
 
joobz said:
How does this at all relate to this discussion?
Click to expand...


Sorry, my fault.
Edge is replying to me.


Initially this:

[X] said:
1) Ba'al was a fertility god. Worship of him included, among other fertility rites, ritual sex as a celebtration of life. Might this be the "whoredom" referred to in Numbers, Edge?


2) You mentioned herod's slaughter. Funny how there is absolutely no historical evidence for this, in either Roman or Jewish records. It occurs only in the Gospel of matthew. So did it happen and somehow get ignored by the likes of Josephus, who recored as many of Herod's transgretions as he could find? Or did it not occur at all, and the Bible is therefore fallible, Edge? If it didn't occur, might not some of the more fantastical stories be just that: stories? Like the flood? It would save you having to justify a genocide....
Click to expand...


Then my reply to his response:

[X] said:
edge said:
Post the refrence.
In Samuel is where I am reading.
Click to expand...


My reference is Karen Armstrong's "A History of God".
However, since I can't post a book, please regard the following links as references.
Wikipedia article on Baal
Stewarton Bible School sermon notes (has an evangelical bias, so be careful taking it literally)
Encyclopedia Mythica article onBaal
Britannica.com article on Baal
Encyclopedia.com article on Baal
Bible-History.com section on Baal
A few of the more readable entries on the first page of a Google search for "Baal fertility god".
Seriously, Edge, it's your religion. Shouldn't it interest you to learn all you can abbout its history?




edge said:
But there is a Christian record and why is it, that it doesn’t count as historical, because some body else didn’t record it?
Leaders stifle stuff all the time eventually they are brought to light later, even for presidents.
Click to expand...


And now where back to the old claim of the Bible being infallible.
The Bible is not infallible, and is known to have had many passages added to or altered. It even disagrees with itself in many places. Not only that, but the gospels were written long after when Jesus' death is supposed to have taken place. About a full generation after.
So it makes sense to seek corroborating testimonies.
Since none can be found outside of one book in the Bible, it stands to reason that the accounts are not hisotorical, btut hagiographical. That is, they are part of a diefication process rather than a true accounting of history.
Click to expand...



And now this, when I point out that calling Ba'al worshippers "anti-christ worshippers" is utterly illogical, since Ba'al preceded Christ by a rather long time.

edge said:
If it's anti Christ/Christian now it also must of been anti God then.
How simple.
Sin started in the Old Testament with the first family.
All these people came from an original set of people /family.
If Sin is anti-Christian, is it not anti God?
Click to expand...


Ah, how simple. Assume the Bible is factual in order to support pre-determined concusions that it is true and thus what it condemns is false.
Round and round the logic goes, when it will stop, God only knows...




Seriously, Edge, if you value your religion, why wouldn't you want to learn about the history and development of it?




And as Joobz (and others) has repeatedly pointed out:
Claiming your flavour of Christianity is true becaus e"you know it to be true" is a useless argument against anyone. It may reassure you, but putting it forward in an argument is folly.
Why?
Because it is the same argument every religious person uses for their religion, no matter what that religion is.



Honestly, Edge, isn't it easier to assume Noah's flood is just a story?
Then you won't have to engage in these mental gymnastics to try to justify Gods genocide(s). Since your justification seems to consist of the following contradictory opinions:
a) mankind cannot understand the intent of God, and
b) God and whatever God does is good (which, of course, requires knowledge that was admitted in a) to be impossible);
wouldn't it just be easier to admit that not all of the Bible is literally true, and spare your mind the hurt of doublethink?
 
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From your first link:
The altar of Baal was in the image of a bull with the head and shoulders of a man. Its arms extended outward and fire belched out from a hole in the chest. The priest of Baal placed the babies on the outstretched arms, where the child would be rolled into the fire. As the child died, the priest and priestess engaged in sexual intercourse, while an orgy occurred among the onlookers.
A Baal cemetery unearthed recently contained the remains of more than twenty thousand children. The Greek author Kleitarchos described this practice of sacrificing infants to Baal three hundred years before Christ:
"Out of reverence for Kronos [Baal], the Phoenicians, and especially the Carthaginians, whenever they seek to obtain some great favor, vow one of their children, burning it as a sacrifice to the deity, if they are especially eager to gain success. There stands in their midst a bronze statue of Kronos, its hands extended over a bronze brazier, the flames of which engulf the child. When the flames fall on the body, the limbs contract and the open mouth seems almost to be laughing, until the contracted body slips quietly into the brazier."
Ancients were led by Satan to kill their children for personal convenience and gain, while engaging in promiscuity.
Click to expand...

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Abortion is Murder/abortion_and_baal_worship.htm
The author makes the connection to abortion also.


Modern Baal worshipers still exist.
People of the Americas 400 years ago, also worshiped a similar deity, the feathered serpent and they were much more extreme in the act of human sacrifice and all for the fertility of the land and crops.

A serpent that flies sounds familiar.
Lord of the high places.
How does the same religion basically, be practiced in the extremes of human sacrifice world wide and have similar evil practices?

Worship of the creature not the creator.


Through analogy and through the belief that one can control or aid the powers of nature by the practice of magic, particularly sympathetic magic, sexuality might characterize part of the cult of the Ba'als and 'Ashtarts. Post-Exilic allusions to the cult of Ba‘al Pe'or suggest that orgies prevailed. On the summits of hills and mountains flourished the cult of the givers of increase, and "under every green tree" was practised the licentiousness which was held to secure abundance of crops. Human sacrifice, the burning of incense, violent and ecstatic exercises, ceremonial acts of bowing and kissing, the preparing of sacred cakes (see also Asherah), appear among the offences denounced by the post-Exilic prophets; and show that the cult of Ba'al (and 'Ashtart) included characteristic features of worship which recur in various parts of the Semitic (and non-Semitic) world, although attached to other names. But it is also possible that such rites were performed to a local Ba'al 'Lord' and a local 'Ashtart without much concern as to whether or not they were the same as that of a nearby community or how they fitted into the national theology of Yahweh who had become a ruling high god of the heavens, increasingly disassociated from such things, at least in the minds of some worshippers.
Click to expand...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal
From your link [X]
I read three and the Britannica took to long to load.
They all are in agreement.


In the Bible Baal is also called Beelzebub, or Baalzebub, one of the fallen angels of Satan.
Click to expand...

Taken from here: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baal.html

So you still can’t see it?
Really?
 
edge said:
From your first link:

The altar of Baal was in the image of a bull with the head and shoulders of a man. Its arms extended outward and fire belched out from a hole in the chest. The priest of Baal placed the babies on the outstretched arms, where the child would be rolled into the fire. As the child died, the priest and priestess engaged in sexual intercourse, while an orgy occurred among the onlookers.
A Baal cemetery unearthed recently contained the remains of more than twenty thousand children. The Greek author Kleitarchos described this practice of sacrificing infants to Baal three hundred years before Christ:
"Out of reverence for Kronos [Baal], the Phoenicians, and especially the Carthaginians, whenever they seek to obtain some great favor, vow one of their children, burning it as a sacrifice to the deity, if they are especially eager to gain success. There stands in their midst a bronze statue of Kronos, its hands extended over a bronze brazier, the flames of which engulf the child. When the flames fall on the body, the limbs contract and the open mouth seems almost to be laughing, until the contracted body slips quietly into the brazier."
Ancients were led by Satan to kill their children for personal convenience and gain, while engaging in promiscuity.
Click to expand...

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils in America/Abortion is Murder/abortion_and_baal_worship.htm
The author makes the connection to abortion also.


Modern Baal worshipers still exist.
People of the Americas 400 years ago, also worshiped a similar deity, the feathered serpent and they were much more extreme in the act of human sacrifice and all for the fertility of the land and crops.

A serpent that flies sounds familiar.
Lord of the high places.
How does the same religion basically, be practiced in the extremes of human sacrifice world wide and have similar evil practices?

Worship of the creature not the creator.



Through analogy and through the belief that one can control or aid the powers of nature by the practice of magic, particularly sympathetic magic, sexuality might characterize part of the cult of the Ba'als and 'Ashtarts. Post-Exilic allusions to the cult of Ba‘al Pe'or suggest that orgies prevailed. On the summits of hills and mountains flourished the cult of the givers of increase, and "under every green tree" was practised the licentiousness which was held to secure abundance of crops. Human sacrifice, the burning of incense, violent and ecstatic exercises, ceremonial acts of bowing and kissing, the preparing of sacred cakes (see also Asherah), appear among the offences denounced by the post-Exilic prophets; and show that the cult of Ba'al (and 'Ashtart) included characteristic features of worship which recur in various parts of the Semitic (and non-Semitic) world, although attached to other names. But it is also possible that such rites were performed to a local Ba'al 'Lord' and a local 'Ashtart without much concern as to whether or not they were the same as that of a nearby community or how they fitted into the national theology of Yahweh who had become a ruling high god of the heavens, increasingly disassociated from such things, at least in the minds of some worshippers.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal
From your link [X]
I read three and the Britannica took to long to load.
They all are in agreement.


In the Bible Baal is also called Beelzebub, or Baalzebub, one of the fallen angels of Satan.
Click to expand...

Taken from here: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/b/baal.html

So you still can’t see it?
Really?
Click to expand...




They also all agree that Ba'al was a fertility god.
And that ritual sex was sometimes part of worship rituals.
I am afraid I do not recall denying that Ba'al worshippers sacrificed children. Perhaps you could point it out to me?
Because all I recal saying is that Ba'al was a fertility god whose warship included, among other things, ritual sex. Which is what the links I provded verify!
I was merely pointing out that Ba'al was not Satan, although later on Ba'als name was twisted (by followers of the Abrahamic faith) to "Beelzebub", or "Lord of the Flies", which was meant to be an insulting version of "Lord of All That Flies" (man those people had odd insults), and cast him as one of Satan's. Because, well, it is an effective way to get ignorant followers to avoid straying. Call it scary, call it evil, and the people will hate it.


Additionally, I notice that you have not responded to my comment on the utter lack of historical evidence for Herod slaughtering the innocents, except to ask why I don't consider the Bible alone as valid evidence. I pointed out why, and you have remained silent.
I wonder if you could indulge me by responding.
I will copy the comment below for your convenience.


Edit: forgot to copy my comment:

And now where back to the old claim of the Bible being infallible.
The Bible is not infallible, and is known to have had many passages added to or altered. It even disagrees with itself in many places. Not only that, but the gospels were written long after when Jesus' death is supposed to have taken place. About a full generation after.
So it makes sense to seek corroborating testimonies.
Since none can be found outside of one book in the Bible, it stands to reason that the accounts are not hisotorical, btut hagiographical. That is, they are part of a diefication process rather than a true accounting of history./quote]
Click to expand...
 
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Ya but you don't know that for sure and who's to say it isn't?
There are too many details in that story if you ask me.
Even a king of the Jews was willing to sacrifice his own.
The three wise men had sight, enough so they avoided the deception and on their way back to their homelands they avoided Herod, they were able to see past his deception because of his history.
If you did such a despicable thing and as a king would it be part of your history?

So to figure out who’s a false profit you then look at their works and what was Hitler’s works?
They the false ones will be judged for their works we are not if we accept Jesus.

When an English robber called Captain Thunderbolt escaped the law and moved to the eastern US in 1818, he began practicing medicine. He took on the name Dr. John Wilson. Often he wore three suits of clothes to escape recognition by making himself look larger and covering up a deformed leg.
Just before the man died, he asked his friends to bury him without removing his clothes. But to prepare his body for proper burial, that request could not be honored. The mortician was surprised to find scars from wounds and a withered leg. A search of “Dr. Wilson’s” house revealed a stash of watches, jewelry, and diamonds. The sheriff learned that the doctor was in fact Thunderbolt, a thief in disguise. They had been fooled!
Satan and his followers have disguises too. It says in 2 Corinthians 11:15, “[Satan’s] ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness.”
But how? One way is through false doctrine. Ever since Paul’s day, false teachers have taught that good deeds can earn salvation.
Paul warned us not to be deceived by the devil’s craftiness (v.3). The truth is: “By grace you have been saved through faith; it is the gift of God, not of works” (Eph. 2:8-9). Don’t be fooled.
— Anne Cetas
The powers of darkness have blinded the race,
closing our eyes to the glories of grace;
but faith in the Savior brings healing and sight—
He floods our soul with His truth and His light. —DJD
Satan has many tools, but deception is the handle that fits them all.
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http://www.rbc.org/devotionals/our-daily-bread/2008/06/17/devotion.aspx




3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
2 Corinthians 11:3-4

12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
2 Corinthians 11:12-15

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Corinthians 11:3-4,12-15

Because learning such things might endanger his faith.
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Madalch my faith is not endangered it’s yours that’s is endangered.
 
edge said:
Ya but you don't know that for sure and who's to say it isn't?
Click to expand...
That's the best retort for any claim in faith.

God is good:
Ya but you don't know that for sure and who's to say it isn't?

God was just in genocide:
Ya but you don't know that for sure and who's to say it isn't?

God wears a pink tu-tu while singing i'm a little teapot:
Ya but you don't know that for sure and who's to say it isn't?



We have only our logic and reason to go off of. Anyone to claim that 3 year olds, 2year olds, 5 year olds, 4 year olds were all wicked and deserved death is amoral. A god who would demand such action is amoral. A person who would defend a god who would do such action is amoral. It doesn't matter if that person calls god, God, godhead, JuJu, Allah, Jehovah, Xenu, Bart, ...., they are defending an amoral god.
 
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