Molten Steel

[twinstead]

See, bill. It's fun to just make stuff up, isn't it?

 

[Christopher7]

So your so-called "government scientists" is now just a "narrator." I guess we can call that progress, Chris.

The "scientist" remark was incorrect so I corrected it.
Bart Voorsanger is President of Voorsanger and Associates, Architects

The point remains that this video was OK'd by the government.

Mr. Voorsanger described his role as consultant charged with selecting artifacts and objects from the World Trade Center site for future exhibitions and a memorial by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. He was hired by the Port Authority soon after the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and began the process of collecting 9/11 materials.

Speaking about the section of the antenna he said:
"I think it must have fallen far enough away from the internal fires within the center of the towers that it was not melted."

He knew the debris pile within the center of the towers was hot enough to melt steel.

Have you written Steven Jones yet to tell him that his "meteorite" is just concrete and not "re-solidified molten metal?"

Just concrete? Where did you get that?

Mr. Voorsanger said:
"molten steel and concrete and all these things all fused by the heat into one single element"

Prof. Jones said:
"The abundance of iron (as opposed to aluminum) in this material is indicated by the reddish rust observed."


There was solidified molten steel in the "meteorite".

The debris pile was hot enough to melt steel.

Carbon based fires cannot get that hot except in a foundry where a great deal of air is forced through a fire for a long time or a torch where a combustible gas is mixed with oxygen under high pressure.

 

[GStan]

<snip>

There was solidified molten steel in the "meteorite".

The debris pile was hot enough to melt steel.

Carbon based fires cannot get that hot except in a foundry where a great deal of air is forced through a fire for a long time or a torch where a combustible gas is mixed with oxygen under high pressure.

-No there wasn't.
-No it wasn't.
-Which further illustrates why your first two points are wrong.

 

[BigAl]

The point remains that this video was OK'd by the government.

What "government" and how do you know that?

 

[Furcifer]

I answered your question in post 1039


Mr. Voorsanger said:
"molten steel and concrete and all these things all fused by the heat into one single element"

No reasonable person would interpret his statement as meaning the "meteorite" was only molten metal. Your assertion that people would interpret it that way is absurd.

Prof. Jones included this photo in his paper with the caption:
"The following photograph has become available, evidently showing the now-solidified metal with entrained material"
entrained: to trap in gas or liquid


[qimg]http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4439/meteoritesm.jpg[/qimg]


Neither the photo nor the caption would lead anyone to think the "meteorite" was all solidified molten metal.
The paragraph following the photo starts with:
"The abundance of iron (as opposed to aluminum) in this material is indicated by the reddish rust observed.
abundance: large amount
This is clearly NOT claiming the "meteorite" is all solidified molten metal.

It is a common tactic by you, Gravy, and others here to intentionally misinterpret what people say and then call them liars based on that misinterpretation. Then you use the false allegation of lying to deny the evidence.

All your misinterpretation, doubletalk and sophistry cannot get around the FACT that there was solidified molten metal in the "meteorite".

Mr. Voorsanger's comment;

"I think it must have fallen far enough away from the internal fires within the center of the towers that it was not melted."

makes it clear that he knows the temperatures in the debris pile were capable of melting steel.

Since carbon based fires cannot burn hot enough to melt steel, it was the molten metal causing the fires.

Blast! All those years of planning, the flawless execution, the planting of evidence, the fantastic innovative science of silent explosives, all foiled by the emotional testimony of a few non-knowing fools!!!!

The truth movemment seems to latch on to a few out dated statements by the less qualified as "THE TRUTH"

If there was a YouTube video of two guys claiming 2 teddy bears in jumpsuits cause the collapse there would be a "theory" to reflect this.

No one, least of all me, would claim that no one said there were "temperatures as hot a a white giant in July" in the center of the debris pile. People said all kinds of stuff. There's no doubt about that. What you have to doubt is the validity of the statements of a select few in relation to those of the experts.

The sad thing is the fact that if the truth movement was in the majority, totally backed by science and the experts, I would say "OK, plausible". I think most of the members here would do the same. Just some proof, some evidence and I'm on board. Got any?

 

[twinstead]

When people like Chris say "The Government" it is quite different than when most other people say "the government". His is usually accompanied by spooky music.

 

[GStan]

When people like Chris say "The Government" it is quite different than when most other people say "the government". His is usually accompanied by spooky music.

Don't mess with those guys. They'll steal your blender and spraypaint your dog green. All in the interests of national security no less.

 

[T.A.M.]

When people like Chris say "The Government" it is quite different than when most other people say "the government". His is usually accompanied by spooky music.

More like...

"THE GOVERNMENT!" .... DUM DUM DUM!!!

TAM

 

[bje]

The "scientist" remark was incorrect so I corrected it.
Bart Voorsanger is President of Voorsanger and Associates, Architects

Thanks for the admission, finally.

The point remains that this video was OK'd by the government.

Mr. Voorsanger described his role as consultant charged with selecting artifacts and objects from the World Trade Center site for future exhibitions and a memorial by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. He was hired by the Port Authority soon after the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and began the process of collecting 9/11 materials.

There is nothing there to indicate your claim that the TV video was "cleared by the government." None of your claims here hold up:

The other video was made in co-operation with the government. The man said "molten steel".
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4484205&postcount=971

That guy in the government cleared video thought there was previously molten metal, but what do they know?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4485766&postcount=1023

The man in the video said there was [previously] molten metal in the meteorite. He got his info from the government. You are looking at photos and saying you know better.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4486077&postcount=1036

You dodged the truth. The government said there was molten metal in the meteorite. So why all the doubt and discussion?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4486103&postcount=1039

The government scientists say there's molten metal in the meteorite. Yes, the govt. falsifies scientific documents but not this one. This one confirms molten metal and NIST doesn't deal with that.

I'm going with what the government says about the meteorite. Their data has been mostly accurate, it's their analysis that sucks. The meteorite is fused together by extreme heat. Compaction alone cannot make a solid chunk like that.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4486761&postcount=1054

This video clip is effectively government conformation of the existence of molten metal and extreme temperatures that fused the "meteorite" into a solid block.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWWws...eature=related


What I am saying is:

Thermite is the only known possible cause of the molten metal.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4475168&postcount=641

Of course molten steel can solidify around rebar. [Steel does not melt immediately]. . . . . . Paper, not so much.

The guy in the video about the "meteorite" says something about "molten". Steven was probably quoting him.

What difference does it make anyway?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4477348&postcount=778

Gosh... So no one from the "government" ever said the "meteorite" was "molten." The only one claiming that is Steven Jones and you, Chris.

Speaking about the section of the antenna he said:
"I think it must have fallen far enough away from the internal fires within the center of the towers that it was not melted."

He knew the debris pile within the center of the towers was hot enough to melt steel.

Just concrete? Where did you get that?

Mr. Voorsanger said:
"molten steel and concrete and all these things all fused by the heat into one single element"

You finally admitted that Voorsanger is an architect and NOT a "government scientist." And you said:

Only a real investigation where someone actually tests the remaining steel will give us the proof. The government has not and will not do that.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4475168&postcount=641

Gosh....

Prof. Jones said:
"The abundance of iron (as opposed to aluminum) in this material is indicated by the reddish rust observed."

There was solidified molten steel in the "meteorite".

The debris pile was hot enough to melt steel.

Carbon based fires cannot get that hot except in a foundry where a great deal of air is forced through a fire for a long time or a torch where a combustible gas is mixed with oxygen under high pressure.

Steven Jones said quite clearly:

Why Indeed Did the World Trade Center Buildings Completely Collapse?

The following photograph has become available, evidently showing the now-solidified metal with entrained material, stored (as of November 2005) in a warehouse in New York:

The abundance of iron (as opposed to aluminum) in this material is indicated by the reddish rust observed. When a sample is obtained, a range of characterization techniques will quickly give us information we seek. X-ray energy dispersive spectrometry (XEDS) will yield the elemental composition, and electron energy-loss spectroscopy will tell us the elements found in very small amounts that were undetectable with XEDS. Electron-backscattered diffraction in the scanning electron microscope will give us phase information; the formation of certain precipitates can tell us a minimum temperature the melt must have reached. We will endeavor to obtain and publish these data, whatever they reveal

What concrete, Chris? Gosh, what is concrete melt, Chris?

It is easy to spot when Truthers can't keep their "stories" straight. It's all in the record. Your convulsions in this thread are quite funny.

Would you like me to write that letter to Steven Jones for you, Chris?

 

[Christopher7]

-No there wasn't.
-No it wasn't.
-Which further illustrates why your first two points are wrong.

Are you calling Mr. Voorsanger a liar?

 

[Christopher7]

There is nothing there to indicate your claim that the TV video was "cleared by the government." None of your claims here hold up:

The Port Authority is the government agency in charge of the Trade Center. The "meteorite" is in their custody and access is limited by them. They cleared the video.


Steven Jones said quite clearly:

"The following photograph has become available, evidently showing the now-solidified metal with entrained material,"

"The abundance of iron (as opposed to aluminum) in this material is indicated by the reddish rust observed."

What concrete, Chris? Gosh, what is concrete melt, Chris?

Entrained material includes the concrete. Abundance means 'not all'. Just because he did not mention the concrete directly you misinterpret his statements as meaning there was none.

 

[bje]

Chris,

Do you want to correct your last post or shall I use your own statements that contradict you?

 

[Mercutio]

Are you calling Mr. Voorsanger a liar?

Technically, it is you who is lying with his words. Have you told him what you are doing? Has he expressed his thanks and admiration?

 

[Kent1]

When you were talking about the basement it reminded me of this wild looking photo.

 

[Christopher7]

Chris,

Do you want to correct your last post or shall I use your own statements that contradict you?

You can play word games if you like but that will not change the facts.

Mr. Voorsanger said:"molten steel and concrete and all these things all fused by the heat into one single element"

"I think it must have fallen far enough away from the internal fires within the center of the towers that it was not melted."


He knows what he is talking about. You are not qualified nore are you in a position to second guess him. He was there.

 

[Christopher7]

Technically, it is you who is lying with his words.

No, he said there was molten steel in the "meteorite".

Do you understand?

 

[bje]

You can play word games if you like but that will not change the facts.

Mr. Voorsanger said:"molten steel and concrete and all these things all fused by the heat into one single element"

"I think it must have fallen far enough away from the internal fires within the center of the towers that it was not melted."


He knows what he is talking about. You are not qualified nore are you in a position to second guess him. He was there.

You're not paying attention, Chris. Do you even bother to read what you wrote before messing up again?

I'm giving you the opportunity to correct yourself. Try again.

 

[Christopher7]

You're not paying attention, Chris. Do you even bother to read what you wrote before messing up again?

I'm giving you the opportunity to correct yourself. Try again.

That's what I use debate for, to correct my statements. You want to ignore the fact that there was molten steel in the debris piles by talking about what I said while refining my point.

 

[Sunstealer]

I propose the NWO used a new, NEVER BEFORE HEARD OF chemical, call it EBILEX,

exothermic-barometric, inter-laced Europium Xenon is not an easy material to produce.

Europium is the most reactive of the rare earth elements; it rapidly oxidizes in air, and resembles calcium in its reaction with water; samples of the metal element in solid form, even when coated with a protective layer of mineral oil, are rarely shiny. Europium ignites in air at about 150 °C to 180 °C

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europium

Hence the need to keep it contained within an inert, noble gas atmosphere such as Xenon.

Due to the production of Europium, it's isotopes and subsequent compounds are secret, because it's mainly produced by the nuclear industry and therefore the properties are not widely known. However, documents have leaked out showing it's a proponent for experimental uses such as silent explosives in the nano form.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

You're not paying attention, Chris. Do you even bother to read what you wrote before messing up again?

I'm giving you the opportunity to correct yourself. Try again.

If I'm seeing the error you speak of... Christopher hasn't seen it yet...

Just concrete? Where did you get that?

Mr. Voorsanger said:
"molten steel and concrete and all these things all fused by the heat into one single element"

Prof. Jones said:
"The abundance of iron (as opposed to aluminum) in this material is indicated by the reddish rust observed."


There was solidified molten steel in the "meteorite".

The debris pile was hot enough to melt steel.

Carbon based fires cannot get that hot except in a foundry where a great deal of air is forced through a fire for a long time or a torch where a combustible gas is mixed with oxygen under high pressure.

Yeah there would be solid metal inside the concrete floor assembly, it is part of what adds to the tensile integrity of the floor system. That tends to lean on the area of "not having melted" at all. The "rust" is pretty irrelevant and doesn't require the materials to be combined in some form of mixture, the rust is a surface feature of the concrete which came from both the material that was used with it and whatever material was adjacent to it prior to it being recovered. A rather normal phenomenon found in what was the product of an unprecedented event. It's not screaming "I WAS MELTED BY THERMITE LOL!"