Molten Steel

[BigAl]

No. I'm just pointing out that there was molten steel in the "meteorite" and elsewhere in the debris piles.

A QUESTION TO THE GROUP: In the real world. what wold happen when concrete comes in contact with molten steel (~2500F)?

My guess is that the concrete hydrates would turn into little more than vaporized water and white dust, not anything that looks like it was ever concrete.

 

[bje]

That's what I use debate for, to correct my statements. You want to ignore the fact that there was molten steel in the debris piles by talking about what I said while refining my point.

Don't keep dodging what you claims, Chris. We are specifically discussing the so-called "meteorite" and your claims about it.

 

[Mercutio]

No, he said there was molten steel in the "meteorite".

Do you understand?

I note that you chose not to quote the rest of my post.

Have you contacted him? Does he approve of your interpretation of his words?

Seriously, you are clinging to a sentence or two, extremely early in the process, uttered by a man you admit not to be an expert, and you are denying the considered opinions of experts who have had the time and opportunity to go over the evidence in depth.

In other words, you are using his very selectively cherry-picked sentences to lie. You don't even know if he would stand by those words today, but you cling to them like a drowning man. Problem is, the straw you are clutching is circling the drain.

 

[bje]

Where have you been? I said in an earlier post that I was wrong about his being a scientist. What matters is what he said.

No, what we are discussing are your claims, Chris. Voorsanger is an architect. You wrote:

Mr. Voorsanger described his role as consultant charged with selecting artifacts and objects from the World Trade Center site for future exhibitions and a memorial by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey. He was hired by the Port Authority soon after the September 11, 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and began the process of collecting 9/11 materials.

Now, Chris, quit your incessant dodging and answer the question: Give us the name of government scientist(s) who you claim said the "meteorite" was "molten."

You're just making a fool of yourself evading your claims, Chris.

 

[bje]

Man, this thread is sad. I was also "there," and I say there's no evident molten metal. I also say it would do nothing to support conspiracist claims if there were molten metal.

Just another nonsensical red herring pursued with pathetic desperation by people who are utterly bereft of evidence to support their claims. This is it, "truth" movement? This is your best stuff?

Apparently.

Chris backed himself into a corner and he knows there is only one way out. But Truthers like Chris can never concede they have no support for their claims.

 

[A W Smith]

Failure to produce evidence = fail

The "meteorite" has been on display for many years now. Yet not one photo of "molten steel". All Chris has is one word in one sentence of hyperbole. This is truther desperation. Never mind that even if you can find a shovel full of molten anything within this "meteorite" It proves absolutely nothing. If the "meteorite" was allegedly formed of heat than it would be MOSTLY molten metal. It isn't. case closed.

 

[Christopher7]

The "meteorite" has been on display for many years now. Yet not one photo of "molten steel". All Chris has is one word in one sentence of hyperbole. This is truther desperation. Never mind that even if you can find a shovel full of molten anything within this "meteorite" It proves absolutely nothing. If the "meteorite" was allegedly formed of heat than it would be MOSTLY molten metal. It isn't. case closed.

hyperbole: deliberate and obvious exaggeration

You are calling Mr. Voorsanger a liar. You have no shame.

The molten steel and concrete in the "meteorite" were fused together by extreme heat. Now you are denying this as well.

You are in denial.

You will deny anything that proves the existence of molten steel in the debris pile, call anyone who says there was molten steel a liar, claim that the firefighters who saw molten steel running down the channel rails were mistaken, and the firefighters who saw molten steel dripping from the ends of beams as they were pulled from the pile were mistaken.

You are in denial and no amount of testimony will get past your denial.

 

[Christopher7]

Man, this thread is sad. I was also "there," and I say there's no evident molten metal. I also say it would do nothing to support conspiracist claims if there were molten metal.

Just another nonsensical red herring pursued with pathetic desperation by people who are utterly bereft of evidence to support their claims. This is it, "truth" movement? This is your best stuff?

You are calling Mr. Voorsanger a liar. You are calling the firefighters, contractors and structural engineers who reported molten steel liars. You will call anybody who reported molten steel a liar because you are in denial. You're pathetic desperation to deny the existence of molten steel leaves you no choice.

When you call the people in the Truth Movement names, you are actually describing yourself.

Mr. Voorsanger's statements are clear.
"molten steel and concrete and all these things all fused by the heat into one single element"

"I think it must have fallen far enough away from the internal fires within the center of the towers that it was not melted."


You are in no position to second guess him or call him a liar.

 

[BigAl]

You are calling Mr. Voorsanger a liar. You are calling the firefighters, contractors and structural engineers who reported molten steel liars. You will call anybody who reported molten steel a liar because you are in denial. You're pathetic desperation to deny the existence of molten steel leaves you no choice.

Is this meteorite-like on display somewhere in the NYC area? Are there any repositories of WTC debris that are open to the public?

 

[bje]

hyperbole: deliberate and obvious exaggeration

You are calling Mr. Voorsanger a liar. You have no shame.

Strawman. No one has called Voorsanger a liar. Voorsanger is an architect, NOT a government scientist.

I am specifically asking you to provide the names and papers of the government scientists you claimed said there was molten metal in the "meteorite."

Why are you afraid to give us those names, Chris? Either you can back up your own claims or you can admit you cannot.

Now, one more time, Chris: What are the names of the government scientists you claim said molten metal was in the "meteorite" and where can we find their studies showing that?

 

[BigAl]

You are calling Mr. Voorsanger a liar.

"Lie" is such a harsh word. Since he doesn't claim to have seem molten metal first-hand, he may simply be misinformed by someone that heard it from someone else.

You are calling the firefighters, contractors and structural engineers who reported molten steel liars.

We know of no statement of a first-hand eyewitness of molten steel that can be confirmed. many say they were mis-quoted.

If there were any technical measurements or other physical evidence consistent with molten steel, we could cut the poor eyewitnesses some slack, but there isn't so we can't.

Nobody says "I saw...". Some people that use the word "molten" use it in a context that shows that they are using the word incorrectly. They didn't see molten steel.

There were an estimated 7,000 people working on the pile for the clean-up. Many of these people were steelworkers that would recognize molten steel if they saw it. Nobody says they saw molten steel with their own eyes.

 

[Mercutio]

You are calling Mr. Voorsanger a liar. You have no shame.

Have you confirmed with him that he still believes the meaning you are attaching to his words? We cannot know if he is a liar until we know that you are correctly representing his views.

I am calling you a liar, C7; the fact that you are using his words to lie is tangential.

I doubt very much that he would agree with your statements today, and I doubt very much that you bothered to check. In a mountain of contradicting evidence, that one scrap is consistent with your preconceived notions, so why on earth would you critically examine it?

 

[Christopher7]

No one has called Voorsanger a liar.

The "meteorite" has been on display for many years now. Yet not one photo of "molten steel". All Chris has is one word in one sentence of hyperbole.

Voorsanger:
"molten steel and concrete and all these things all fused by the heat into one single element"

hyperbole: deliberate and obvious exaggeration

This is calling Voorsanger a liar.

Voorsanger is an architect, NOT a government scientist.
I am specifically asking you to provide the names and papers of the government scientists you claimed said there was molten metal in the "meteorite."

What part of;
"The "scientist" remark was incorrect so I corrected it.
Bart Voorsanger is President of Voorsanger and Associates, Architects"
don't you understand?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4492438#post4492438

 

[Gravy]

A QUESTION TO THE GROUP: In the real world. what wold happen when concrete comes in contact with molten steel (~2500F)?

My guess is that the concrete hydrates would turn into little more than vaporized water and white dust, not anything that looks like it was ever concrete.

It's composed of materials with different melting points. Some of those constituents would melt well below the melting point of steel. In this case there may also have been many other materials and gasses mixed in with the rubble that could affect melting points.

It's not so much a question of concrete coming into contact with molten steel, though. The problem is that the truthers are essentially saying that this rubble was in an oven that was hot enough to melt some steel yet leave other steel of similar composition intact. Curiously, the most obviously intact steel in these photos is not insulated by concrete. Remember that concrete/cement is used on steel as a fire insulator.

Aside from all that, the presence of unburned paper embedded in the rubble is a good indicator that it wasn't exposed to very high temperatures.

News flash: truthers don't think things through.

 

[Gravy]

I am calling you a liar, C7; the fact that you are using his words to lie is tangential.

It's ironic that the people who get nearly everything wrong can't comprehend that people can get things wrong without lying. They assume that statements by people like Voorsanger and the ironworker must be correct, because they can't imagine why such people would lie. Meanwhile, they invent titles such as "government scientist," which is obviously not only wrong, it's a lie.

 

[Gravy]

There were an estimated 7,000 people working on the pile for the clean-up.

More than 40,000, actually.

 

[George 152]

A QUESTION TO THE GROUP: In the real world. what wold happen when concrete comes in contact with molten steel (~2500F)?

My guess is that the concrete hydrates would turn into little more than vaporized water and white dust, not anything that looks like it was ever concrete.

Concrete when subjected to high temperature ablates rather well.

 

[A W Smith]

Voorsanger:
"molten steel and concrete and all these things all fused by the heat into one single element"

hyperbole: deliberate and obvious exaggeration

This is calling Voorsanger a liar.

No it is not. look up the definition again Christopher. There is no mention of a lie in any of them.

Hyperbole (pronounced /haɪˈpɝːbəli/ hye-PER-buh-lee; "HYE-per-bowl" is a common mispronunciation) comes from ancient Greek "ὑπερβολή" (meaning excess or exaggeration) and is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is rarely meant to be taken literally.

Hyperbole is used to create emphasis. It is a literary device often used in poetry, and is frequently encountered in casual speech. It is also a visual technique in which a deliberate exaggeration of a particular part of an image is employed.

The only one who is a liar is you Christopher. You need to invent lies like "government scientist" in order to support your fantasy. 40,000 people assisted in the cleanup Christopher. yet not one of them produced photos of molten steel. Not one of them produced a sample of molten steel. Your Lateral ejection has been debunked. Now your molten "meteorite" has been debunked. others here can see that. I don't ever expect you to. You have too much invested in 911 conspiracy fantasy. 7 years of your life a waste of time and at such a late point in your life. how sad.

 

[Furcifer]

Mr. Voorsanger's statements are clear.
"molten steel and concrete and all these things all fused by the heat into one single element"

No they aren't. It's obvious he either had no clue what he was talking about (which I find hard to believe) or he was exagerating his statement for dramatic effect.

This twisted standard of proof is why there is no truth movement and there will never be one. If people like yourself had any intent on finding the so called "truth" they would seek out those who made claims of molten metal. 8 years and not 1 person?

 

[Homeland Insurgency]

The only one who is a liar is you Christopher. You need to invent lies like "government scientist" in order to support your fantasy. 40,000 people assisted in the cleanup Christopher. yet not one of them produced photos of molten steel. Not one of them produced a sample of molten steel. Your Lateral ejection has been debunked. Now your molten "meteorite" has been debunked. others here can see that. I don't ever expect you to. You have too much invested in 911 conspiracy fantasy. 7 years of your life a waste of time and at such a late point in your life. how sad.

Oh please. How do you know who found what and what they didn't? We already know if a witness claimed molten steel you would just hand wave it with some nonsense.

Liar? Stop pretending to know things you obviously don't coming on eight years later.