Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[King of the Americas]

This is speculation on both our parts.

The entire brewing discussion is a sidetrack to the main point of the presence or not of an advanced civilization.
You are extrapolating an entire world spanning advanced civilization from stone ruins and a stone vat. Both of these show no signs of having been made with any technology other than that which was available to any ancient civilization.

One of us doesn't know or understand the requirements of brewing alcohol.

The other did so for over a decade, lives in a brewing community, and has a complete and full understanding of how much grain it takes to produce modern & historic brews, and the environmental living requirements for yeast.

---

Brewing 40 gallons of beer, on a consistent basis IS evidence that a culture was practicing agriculture.

A Nike symbol appearing on every continent, is evidence of a globally connected civilization. The arms and hands wrapping around the corners of the bottom of a statue or pillar pointing to (or carrying) an important object is MORE symbolic and detailed than Nike's Swoosh.

My conclusions were reached after much reading and exposure to many stone structures, myths, and consistent datings and symbols the world over...

 

[Craig B]

Aheeem...*in a whispered tone*

"I've been arguing that the globe was interconnected."

ETA:

You are ignoring the other evidence that stated brewing was likely 100,000 years old...GT brewers were likely advanced.

ETA II: The evidence posed to contradict my original statement was from a few hundred years ago...which should carry more weight?

Where is the evidence - any evidence - that if people brewed intoxicants 100,000 years ago they used cultivated plants for the purpose? Who has suggested this? Which "peer reviewed" evidence do we have for this? Beer can be made from dates, bananas, cactus, birch sap, and other starchy or sweet plant products. Again, where is the evidence that any one of these plants was cultivated so early?

And answer my frequently asked question: where is the wheat pollen in pre-contact America? The Mormons can't produce any from their alleged ancient civilisation. Can you?

 

[King of the Americas]

Where is the evidence - any evidence - that if people brewed intoxicants 100,000 years ago they used cultivated plants for the purpose? Who has suggested this? Which "peer reviewed" evidence do we have for this? Beer can be made from dates, bananas, cactus, birch sap, and other starchy or sweet plant products. Again, where is the evidence that any one of these plants was cultivated so early?

And answer my frequently asked question: where is the wheat pollen in pre-contact America? The Mormons can't produce any from their alleged ancient civilisation. Can you?

Check the link I provided.

Evidence for 'cultivation' is at GT, about 12,500 years ago.

Where is the condom I used on Jennifer, my freshman year that broke and caused the both of us to sweat bullets for 3 weeks!?!? If no one can locate it, connect it with DNA to the two of us, do we get to say our experience was not real?

Mormons??? What are you talking about???

 

[Craig B]

Check the link I provided.

Evidence for 'cultivation' is at GT, about 12,500 years ago.

Where is the condom I used on Jennifer, my freshman year that broke and caused the both of us to sweat bullets for 3 weeks!?!? If no one can locate it, connect it with DNA to the two of us, do we get to say our experience was not real?

Mormons??? What are you talking about???

What are you talking about? Does anyone claim that if KoTA ever ejaculated, his sperm from every such occasion will be available in the fossil record? I hope nobody requires such evidence from you.

Does anyone contend that if people were getting rat arsed a hundred thousand years ago using cultivated plants to make hooch, there should be general evidence of such cultivation? Yes, that is a reasonable contention.

But evidence of every single occasion when alcohol was consumed by a particular individual? That is unlikely to be available.

The Book of Mormon says people came from the Mediterranean area to the Americas long ago, and grew wheat there. No trace of it or its pollen can be found in eg lakebed core samples. Can you find anything in such places? Link.

 

[John Jones]

They all seem to represent or worship fertility...their hands all hang down at a 45 degree angle toward their junk-spot. ETA II: The MAIN similarity I see is the way the fingers wrap around the corner at aand 45 degree angle- pointing toward a square'ish or other object. They seem to be carrying or holding an object of some importance.

ETA:

This was my first thought to your first question:

How very incisive and thought-provoking.

I think that you should consider using that as your standard response to all interlocutors. It's not like you have any credibility left to squander.

 

[John Jones]

WRONG.

I made the claim that historically, humans enjoy, palette, and or are capable of commonly producing fermented liquid with an alcohol rating of between 5-15%, and that maintaining a 40 gallon primary fermenter (AND others) would require too vast an area for simple hunters and gatherers to supply.

The grain requirements I posted were modern ingredients commonly used throughout history, and no evidence yet produced has contradicted these findings.

Be it one batch or two from a 100 lb bag, THAT is a lot of grain...

You make a lot of claims. You don't provide much in the way of evidence.

I don't think you understand the diff between speculation and evidence. That's not intended as a dig at you, just a pattern that I see.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Fantastic! Why didn't you say so before?
Please link to the posts where you cited the peer-reviewed research arguing in favour of an advanced civilisation, dating from some 12,500 years ago, that has been lost.
Will it show the stone pyramids, sorry, the huge stone pyramid structures, in Antarctica and Australia?

ROTFLMAO

*Except for these huge stone monuments that appear on every continent... :/

When you get your breath back, I am still waiting for the photos of the Antarctic and Australian 'huge stone monuments' you are claiming as evidence for this vanished civilisation.
Plus the rest of the peer-reviewed research you claim to have posted.

 

[King of the Americas]

You make a lot of claims. You don't provide much in the way of evidence.

I don't think you understand the diff between speculation and evidence. That's not intended as a dig at you, just a pattern that I see.

Practice the fermenting arts for a decade, watch your friends make many different kinds of beer using all kinds of techniques. Then grow some domestic wheat, and allow it to be overgrown, and look at the results of what might be harvested by forging and gathering. THEN, do some reading about wild wheat, and how easy it is to accidentally cultivate...

Once you've seen that evidence, begin to speculate about how much area you'd have to walk, in order to collect 50 lbs of wheat for ONE batch of beer in ONE brew center, that would need another shipment in 21 days...

I think you are speaking from a position of ignorance to someone who understands fully and completely the physical requirements needed to operate a large primitive alcohol fermenter.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Again this is standard CT procedure.

Pick some minor irrelevant aspect and bog the entire discussion down on it.

 

[King of the Americas]

How very incisive and thought-provoking.

I think that you should consider using that as your standard response to all interlocutors. It's not like you have any credibility left to squander.

...

 

[King of the Americas]

Again this is standard CT procedure.

Pick some minor irrelevant aspect and bog the entire discussion down on it.

Standard Skeptic procedure.

Ignore or dismiss any evidence that contradicts your position.

"Bad Scientist!"

 

[King of the Americas]

When you get your breath back, I am still waiting for the photos of the Antarctic and Australian 'huge stone monuments' you are claiming as evidence for this vanished civilisation.
Plus the rest of the peer-reviewed research you claim to have posted.

Antartica is covered by ice...or didn't you hear?

That said, I'd happily amend my statement and say "almost every known habitable place" has ancient stone structures from before the great flood.

 

[Craig B]

Antartica is covered by ice...or didn't you hear?

That said, I'd happily amend my statement and say "almost every known habitable place" has ancient stone structures from before the great flood.

I'd amend my previous statements too, and say "places that were inhabited in the early period of civilisation have stone structures. This is explicable because

The construction of large stone monuments does not require advanced technology

It does require the coordinated collective effort of large numbers of people, and this is the thing that early civilised societies were the first to possess. But they appeared in different places at different times. So for example, the Great Pyramid was built about two and a half millennia BCE, while Tiwanaku reached its peak of development around half a millennium CE.

The Andean region was later in developing civilisation than the Nile Valley. In ancient times there was no global civilisation, and no advanced technology. The S Americans didn't even have the wheel.

Or maybe all the wheels were washed away in the Flood! Like Pharaoh's chariots in the Red Sea.

 

[Reality Check]

Is not finding pink unicorns at GR evidence that pink unicorns existed at GT

No "stone working tools" were found = ???.

KOTA: "No agricultural tools or cultivated plants found = this was a simple non-agrarian society" is not spelt "stone working tools" !

1. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of an "advanced agricultural civilization" at Göbekli Tepe (or acknowledge your assertion was wrong)
2. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a "globally connected" civilization about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
3. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a single civilization building pyramids globally about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
4. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence that Easter Island is being re-dated and to about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).

13 November 2017: Is not finding pink unicorns at GT evidence that pink unicorns existed at GT ?

Not finding evidence for any residential use or agriculture at GT does not allow a "god of the gaps" argument or ignorant fantasies about future findings.

 

[Reality Check]

...

Nothing to do with my post asking:
10 November 2017: Why do scientists not have a theory of an asteroid impact causing the Younger Dryas?

More ignorance since you think that Graham Hancock is a scientist! He is a crank writer espousing pseudoscience. Anyone with some knowledge of science knows the reasons that there cannot have been an asteroid impact and so real scientists proposed an air burst from a comet.

 

[Reality Check]

*sigh* REPOST

*sigh* REPOSTNIG AN IRRELEVANT POST.

 

[Reality Check]

Call me a liar again.

It is a lie that I called you a liar. This is what I wrote:
Polynesia is not mentioned in the Wikipedia article but I assume there is something in his book about their migrations. Whether it is what King of the Americas asserts is dubious from a person with the record in this thread of unsupported assertions.

 

[Reality Check]

Inanity of pointing out that there have been no silos found

So, you think they collected for ONE batch, in this one fermenter??

You wrote about ONE batch, in this one fermenter and I replied to that.

39 kg divided by "hundreds of hunter/gatherers" per feast = a small amount of grain for each hunter/gatherer - maybe literally a handful! Multiply that by the 6 vats and it is still a small amount.

13 November 2017: Inanity of pointing out that there have been no "grain cello" (silos) found when that is evidence of no agriculture!

 

[Reality Check]

A lie about a unsourced quote being evidence for ovens for bread

"...The feature is open to the west. A lack of evidence for burning would speak against its function as an oven. Excavations within the building yielded numerous finds, including chipped stone and animal bone remains. A large stone vessel was found in-situ on the floor of the building."

This quote states that a feature is not an oven so:
13 November 2017: A lie about a unsourced quote being evidence for ovens for bread.

Fixing your bad scholarship: A Brief Report on Fieldwork at Göbekli Tepe in 2016

In the northwest quarter of the room fill deposits were left untouched in order to provide additional support for the T-pillar (PXIII) located (still in-situ) at a central position at the western end of the room. The base of this T-pillar was found to be embedded in a raised platform at the western end of the building. In the northeast corner of the room a stone feature was revealed. This feature is comprised of three low (c. 50 cm high) walls (to the north, east and west). Two of the walls (to the north and east) are constructed of limestone blocks and were built up against the main walls of the room. The southern wall of the feature is made of a large worked limestone slab, perhaps a fragment of a T-pillar or similar object. The feature is open to the west. A lack of evidence for burning would speak against its function as an oven. Excavations within the building yielded numerous finds, including chipped stone and animal bone remains. A large stone vessel was found in-situ on the floor of the building.

 

[King of the Americas]

KOTA: "No agricultural tools or cultivated plants found = this was a simple non-agrarian society" is not spelt "stone working tools" !

1. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of an "advanced agricultural civilization" at Göbekli Tepe (or acknowledge your assertion was wrong)
2. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a "globally connected" civilization about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
3. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a single civilization building pyramids globally about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
4. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence that Easter Island is being re-dated and to about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).

13 November 2017: Is not finding pink unicorns at GT evidence that pink unicorns existed at GT ?

Wild wheat can be cultivated by brushing it while walking with a pointy stick...

Simply walking through it, after a rain would be enough to use more to grow along the path you took.

It could be gathered with large sweep-baskets, but who knows...