Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[Reality Check]

1. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of an "advanced agricultural civilization" at Göbekli Tepe (or acknowledge your assertion was wrong)
2. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a "globally connected" civilization about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
3. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a single civilization building pyramids globally about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
4. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence that Easter Island is being re-dated and to about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
   
5. 10 November 2017: Why do scientists not have a theory of an asteroid impact causing the Younger Dryas?
   
6. 10 November 2017: Citation for "ovens for bread" at Göbekli Tepe
   
7. 13 November 2017: Is not finding pink unicorns at GT evidence that pink unicorns existed at GT ?
   
8. 13 November 2017: Inanity of pointing out that there have been no "grain cello" (silos) found when that is evidence of no agriculture!
   
9. 13 November 2017: A lie about a unsourced quote being evidence for ovens for bread

 

[Reality Check]

Wild wheat can be cultivated by brushing it while walking with a pointy stick...

A fantasy about what domestication means does not change the fact that GT has no evidence of domesticated barley, wheat or other grains.
13 November 2017: Is not finding pink unicorns at GT evidence that pink unicorns existed at GT ?

 

[Reality Check]

A delusion that the same people carved the hand carvings

You mean stuff like the same hand carvings appearing at GT and on Easter Island?

13 November 2017: A delusion that the same people carved the hand carvings appearing at GT and on Easter Island?
Göbekli Tepe: In Turkey and site abandoned by ~8000 BCE.
Easter Island: In the Pacific and carvings done probably after AD 700 (earliest speculative date of AD 100) !

It is a question so that you can answer that you do not have the delusion that sites separated by thousands of kilometers (and oceans!) and thousands of years with carvings of hands = the same people did the carving.

Hands picking stuff up can only be depicted in certain ways.

Add the cherry picking carvings of body parts.
13 November 2017: Where the carvings of foxes, etc. on Easter Island? Where the moai, makemake, birdmen, etc. at Göbekli Tepe?

 

[Hans]

You are kinda like a zombie too, stumbling about, belching up rotten awful, mush-mouth garble; but that might just be how I see all skeptic-infected humans who can't or won't see the evidence presented to them.

Yes that is you the problem is you are aren't presenting evidence you are expressing unsupported contention (opinion) as fact.

Laughable. Try puting up more Sitchin it clearly demonstrates your level of understanding....lol

 

[Hans]

Question: Do books like Homer's Iliad and Oddsey, the Bible, or other ancient fictional writings have ANY value to scientific archaeologists?

Do tell us about all the great science in 'Enki' won't you? Make a list......we'll wait.....lol

 

[Hans]

ROTFLMAO

*Except for these huge stone monuments that appear on every continent... :/

lol

Still wrong

Why do you keep making the same mistake over and over again?
Is it because you don't think those brown folks could carve rocks?

Tell us where the lost civilization is?

 

[King of the Americas]

1. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of an "advanced agricultural civilization" at Göbekli Tepe (or acknowledge your assertion was wrong)
2. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a "globally connected" civilization about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
3. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a single civilization building pyramids globally about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
4. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence that Easter Island is being re-dated and to about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
   
5. 10 November 2017: Why do scientists not have a theory of an asteroid impact causing the Younger Dryas?
   
6. 10 November 2017: Citation for "ovens for bread" at Göbekli Tepe
   
7. 13 November 2017: Is not finding pink unicorns at GT evidence that pink unicorns existed at GT ?
   
8. 13 November 2017: Inanity of pointing out that there have been no "grain cello" (silos) found when that is evidence of no agriculture!
   
9. 13 November 2017: A lie about a unsourced quote being evidence for ovens for bread

1.) The 40 gallon fermenters are evidence of the cultivation of wheat (wild).
2.) Similar carvings on GT and EI statues, for starters.
3.) There is global connection today, but not one civilization.
4.) EI has moai facing two different directions. The ones facing out to sea are being excavated even now, and have a different instruction date.
5.) The microspheral layer in north america.
6.) Amended- "ovens" but not necessarily for bread.
7.) Are there numerous myths about pink unicorns, to cause us to look for evidences?
8.) Let's make that assertion after they have finished excavation.
9.) Sounded like an oven to me.

 

[King of the Americas]

13 November 2017: A delusion that the same people carved the hand carvings appearing at GT and on Easter Island?
Göbekli Tepe: In Turkey and site abandoned by ~8000 BCE.
Easter Island: In the Pacific and carvings done probably after AD 700 (earliest speculative date of AD 100) !

It is a question so that you can answer that you do not have the delusion that sites separated by thousands of kilometers (and oceans!) and thousands of years with carvings of hands = the same people did the carving.

Hands picking stuff up can only be depicted in certain ways.

Add the cherry picking carvings of body parts.
13 November 2017: Where the carvings of foxes, etc. on Easter Island? Where the moai, makemake, birdmen, etc. at Göbekli Tepe?

No one said the 'same people' did anything.

Is a Nike symbol on every continent, evidence of a globally connected civilization?

 

[Craig B]

1.)
4.) EI has moai facing two different directions. The ones facing out to sea are being excavated even now, and have a different instruction date.

If you're in the mood for "instruction" please give us your source for this.

 

[Reality Check]

A delusion that a "global connected civilization" carved the hand carvings

No one said the 'same people' did anything.

Ok. We have a delusion about a "global connected civilization".
13 November 2017: A delusion that a "global connected civilization" carved the hand carvings appearing at GT and on Easter Island.

Göbekli Tepe: In Turkey and site abandoned by ~8000 BCE.
Easter Island: In the Pacific and carvings done probably after AD 700 (earliest speculative date of AD 100) !

It is a question so that you can answer that you do not have the delusion that sites separated by thousands of kilometers (and oceans!) and thousands of years with carvings of hands = the same people did the carving

And you have answered yes that is your delusion about a "global connected civilization".

13 November 2017: Where the carvings of foxes, etc. on Easter Island? Where the moai, makemake, birdmen, etc. at Göbekli Tepe?

 

[Reality Check]

1.) The 40 gallon fermenters are evidence of the cultivation of wheat (wild).
2.) Similar carvings on GT and EI statues, for starters.
3.) There is global connection today, but not one civilization.
4.) EI has moai facing two different directions. The ones facing out to sea are being excavated even now, and have a different instruction date.
5.) The microspheral layer in north america.
6.) Amended- "ovens" but not necessarily for bread.
7.) Are there numerous myths about pink unicorns, to cause us to look for evidences?
8.) Let's make that assertion after they have finished excavation.
9.) Sounded like an oven to me.

9 "answers" that are:
1) Fantasy.
2) Delusion.
3) Fantasy.
4) Irrelevant.
5) Parroted crank pseudoscience.
6) Making the "ovens for bread" fantasy (so far) an irrelevant fantasy
7) Irrelevant..
8) Denying existing evidence.
9) Repeating a lie about a quote that explicitly says not an oven..

 

[Reality Check]

1. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of an "advanced agricultural civilization" at Göbekli Tepe (or acknowledge your assertion was wrong)
2. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a "globally connected" civilization about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
3. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a single civilization building pyramids globally about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
4. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence that Easter Island is being re-dated and to about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
   
5. 10 November 2017: Why do scientists not have a theory of an asteroid impact causing the Younger Dryas?
   
6. 10 November 2017: Citation for "ovens for bread" ovens at Göbekli Tepe
   Amended- "ovens" but not necessarily for bread.
   
7. 13 November 2017: Is not finding pink unicorns at GT evidence that pink unicorns existed at GT ?
   
8. 13 November 2017: Inanity of pointing out that there have been no "grain cello" (silos) found when that is evidence of no agriculture!
   
9. 13 November 2017: A lie about a unsourced quote being evidence for ovens for bread
   
10. 13 November 2017: Confirmed a delusion that a "global connected civilization" carved the hand carvings appearing at GT and on Easter Island.
    
11. 13 November 2017: Where the carvings of foxes, etc. on Easter Island? Where the moai, makemake, birdmen, etc. at Göbekli Tepe?

 

[Reality Check]

Is a Nike symbol on every continent, evidence of a globally connected civilization?

An idiotic comparison. The Nike symbol is a modern, commercial, fairly unique (not a common body part that anyone with 2 brain cells can paint or carve!)l logo spread in the modern era with modern communication .

Hands are one of the oldest symbols that we have, e.g. they are common in cave paintings.

The hand carvings in GT and Easter Island being evidence of a globally connected civilization is deluded because

• There are limited ways to depict hands (duh!).
• GT and Easter Island are separated by at least 8,000 years so you imply that this fantasy of a civilization has lasted that long.
• The implication that you think Easter Islanders were so stupid that they could not think of craving hands.
• GT and Easter Island are separated by thousands of kilometers and oceans.
  So now do we have supersonic, time traveling carrier pigeons between GT and Easter Island ?
• The idiocy of ignoring every other carving at GR and Easter Island.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

My conclusions were reached after much reading and exposure to many stone structures, myths, and consistent datings and symbols the world over...

9.) Sounded like an oven to me.

I'll just leave this one here.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

When you get your breath back, I am still waiting for the photos of the Antarctic and Australian 'huge stone monuments' you are claiming as evidence for this vanished civilisation.
Plus the rest of the peer-reviewed research you claim to have posted.

Antartica is covered by ice...or didn't you hear?

I am well aware of this fact. Hence my surprise that you claimed there were huge stone pyramid structures there.

That said, I'd happily amend my statement and say "almost every known habitable place" has ancient stone structures from before the great flood.

Heartening to see you can change your position.
I would note, however, that this new statement leaves an awful lot of wriggling room. A dolmen, or even a fireplace, are stone structures. Their presence does not signify the existence of an ancient, advanced and globally-connected civilisation, though.
Are there any features of, say, construction techniques, art, symbolism, shared materials or language, that you could include in your new statement, so as to make it more specific to this postulated civilisation, and therefore more useful as evidence? How about time frames? What do you consider to be the start and end dates of this civilisation? That would help, by ruling out stone structures from outside those dates. What about size? You have rowed back from the 'huge' part of your original claim. Why is that?
Like, for example, the C19th Australian pyramid. Are there any antediluvian structures in Australia (which, I note, is not covered by ice) that you can point to as being part of your lost empire?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Standard Skeptic procedure.

Ignore or dismiss any evidence that contradicts your position.

"Bad Scientist!"

Third time of asking.
Please post (or repost) the peer-reviewed research you mentioned that supports your claim of an ancient, advanced, global civilisation that was destroyed in a flood.
I promise not to ignore it.

 

[Roboramma]

WRONG.

I made the claim that historically, humans enjoy, palette, and or are capable of commonly producing fermented liquid with an alcohol rating of between 5-15%, and that maintaining a 40 gallon primary fermenter (AND others) would require too vast an area for simple hunters and gatherers to supply.

The grain requirements I posted were modern ingredients commonly used throughout history, and no evidence yet produced has contradicted these findings.

Be it one batch or two from a 100 lb bag, THAT is a lot of grain...

How do you know that they weren’t making weak beer?

 

[King of the Americas]

If you're in the mood for "instruction" please give us your source for this.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...u_Nau_and_the_Settlement_at_'Anakena_Rapa_Nui

These dates were derived from some charcoal and rat bones...they think this still might not be the earliest or first settlement.

 

[Tolls]

WRONG.

I made the claim that historically, humans enjoy, palette, and or are capable of commonly producing fermented liquid with an alcohol rating of between 5-15%,

And again.
Wrong.

Try here.
Specifically:

Beer was classified according to alcoholic strength and flavor, with the average beer having an alcohol content of 3-4% while beer used in religious festivals or ceremonies had a higher alcohol content and was considered of better quality.

Which matches current beer consumption in pubs, and matches medieval beer consumption (if we remove the really weak stuff).

A stone, permanently affixed to the floor fermenter would REQUIRE...*I REPEAT* R-E-Q-U-I-R-E...constant use.

For two reasons: 1.) To keep the yeast alive within that vessel, so you get a consistent product. 2.) Without the ability to spray, scrub, and suction that vessel, the operator is threatening the materials in the next batch thereafter.

Which assumes ancient beer was produced in the way you think.

Most bread at the time we are talking about would have been a form of sourdough.
Beer would have been produced from the bread (we have Mesopotamian recipes).

The fermenters had no need to be kept going all year, as that's not how the beer was produced...they relied on the yeast in the bread, plus any additional grains lobbed on top.

 

[King of the Americas]

How do you know that they weren’t making weak beer?

Weak beer or strong, 40 gallons is a huge fermenter!

Beer is addictive, and those who learn how to make it, don't go without it.

They had no way to wash or sanitize these units, so it is MORE THAN LIKELY that they used them constantly, keeping bad bacteria to a minimum. This is also true about alcohol content. The higher the content, the longer lasting the drink in unrefrigerated locals.

I'd like to expound on this notion of "constant use"...

Alcoholics, ahem, I mean 'beer enthusiasts' do NOT usually go without it long. It causes withdrawal symptoms and a general bad attitude. If you are supplying just yourself, maybe a roommate or 2, a 5-15 gallon will do nicely. If you had two fermenters, you could easily destroy both of your livers in like two decades, 3 at the most. A 20 gallon fermenter, churning out even crappy, -4% by alcohol beer would require more liver, or a few more friends visiting regularly.

You people simply have no clue here what a 40 gallon fermenter means...

Ahh!

Play with this for a little while- https://www.brewersfriend.com/allgrain-ogfg/

LEARN!