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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

Was this strained for 21 days? https://mobile.twitter.com/Madame_Kunta/status/525047518372323328/photo/1
Traditional beer is made like porridge, only thinner. It is drunk as soon as it has fermented, if need be through a straw packed with fibre as a filter. It takes a couple of days. Fermented porridge is popular too. The two things are much the same, originally; one consumed thicker, one thinner.

The collectors of wild grain can't make leavened bread. The make flat bread on a hot stone. Native Australians do that with wild millet seed to this day, and have been doing it for fifty thousand years. They never invented agriculture, but gather wild seeds in substantial quantity. If the gatherers have clay pots, or other vessels like gourds, they can make porridge. Make a batch of thin porridge, leave it to ferment a couple of days and consume it as gruel or beer. That's how it's done. The beer will be milky with unsettled sediment, but that's not a deterrent to the consumers.

Similar to Ancient Wine as produced in Greece and Rome.

Load crushed grapes into an Amphora and ferment. A cloudy wine is the product and quality is variable. There is a wine still made in Romania in the same style, they bury the Amphora up to their neck in the ground and seal the lid, a technique dating back to Roman occupation.
 
Similar to Ancient Wine as produced in Greece and Rome.

Load crushed grapes into an Amphora and ferment. A cloudy wine is the product and quality is variable. There is a wine still made in Romania in the same style, they bury the Amphora up to their neck in the ground and seal the lid, a technique dating back to Roman occupation.
A version of that is known in France to the present day as vin bourruWP. I once drank some in a bar in the Dordogne region and was unable to get out of bed the next day before 5 pm.

It takes 3 à 4 jours to prepare from grapes, and thus could easily be produced in gourds or dugout log vats by semi nomadic gatherers. Its effects on the human frame and brain are unpredictable and often severe, so that the invention of wine gods who stimulated bizarre behaviour among devotees is easy to explain.

Recent evidence is that wild grapes have been collected - no doubt for such nefarious purposes - for more than 22,000 years, but that the fruit has been cultivated for only a fraction of that time.
 
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You do not understand that GT is in Turkey not China :eye-poppi?

Very little evidence for residential use has been found at GT which is why it is considered to be a religious center.
Beer is has not evidence of any "settled, advanced, agrarian society" - especially when you want "advanced" to mean "globally connected" :eek:!
GT is evidence that a nomadic, simple, non-agrarian society could brew beer.

It is correct to state what we know something based on the current evidence because it is stupid to wait until we know 100% of anything to draw conclusions.
"Since GT lacks any evidence" is wrong. Not finding something is evidence that it is not there. There were no pink unicorns fond at GT thus we can be really sure that there are no pink unicorns at GT :D. More seriously:
  • No pottery found = this was a simple pre-pottery society.
  • No agricultural tools or cultivated plants found = this was a simple non-agrarian society.
  • No writing found = this was a simple pre-writing society.
  • No homes found = this was a simple non-residential (probably nomadic) society.
Beer can be brewed from wild grains. Basic beer is easy to brew - just seep wild grains in water and leave it to ferment with the natural yeast in the air. The very first beer could be when a group of hunter/gatherers were preparing wild grains in just that manner.

  1. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of an "advanced agricultural civilization" at Göbekli Tepe (or acknowledge your assertion was wrong)
  2. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a "globally connected" civilization about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
  3. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a single civilization building pyramids globally about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).
  4. 9 November 2017: Present your evidence that Easter Island is being re-dated and to about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).

No "stone working tools" were found = ???

I believe that finding no such tools means you can't say one way or the other what did or did not happen at GT.
 
You did and I did not say you did. You said asteroid which is a theory that no one else seems to believe in. There will be reasons why working scientists do not support the idea of an asteroid impact in North America causing the Younger Dryas. I do not know them but an expert like you must know the reasons so:
10 November 2017: Why do scientists not have a theory of an asteroid impact causing the Younger Dryas?

A reference to a 3 hour long video is not your evidence. Present your evidence that you have, e.g. from the video.

Scientists don't have a theory?

Are Hancock and his cohort disqualified?

They present a microspheral sedimentary layer exactly where it should be.
 
You are the "monkey" with the assertion that the pyramids everywhere in the ancient world are evidence of a globally connected civilization. This is an ignorant fantasy, a wrong idea or you have evidence to back it up.
9 November 2017: Present your evidence of a single civilization building pyramids globally about 12,900 BP (start of the Younger Dryas).

You missed the point of the pyramids I listed from the many differentcivilizations at many different times building pyramids so:
10 November 2017: Are the Egyptians from 2700 BC until around 1700 BC the same civilization as the Aztecs in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries?

"the same civilization"...? As in Sam Huntington?

No.

Today, we are globally connected, but we are not the same civilization.

ONE piece of the evidence for global connection lies in the hands on Easter Island's statues and those at GT.
 
Do you know that it is idiocy to think that Neolithic people used modern brewing technology to brew modern beer :eye-poppi?
All you need to brew a very simple beer is a container + water + wild grains + the yeast in the air. It would not be efficient and would produce a weak beer. But it would produce beer.

*sigh* REPOST

It has no froth, is the colour of dark tea and carries an alcohol content of 10% - about double most contemporary beers.

Sakuji Yoshimura, an Egyptologist at Waseda University in Tokyo, helped transcribe the recipe from Egyptian wall paintings.

Kirin spokesman Takaomi Ishii said: "It has a taste very different from today's beer. It tastes a little like white wine."

-- BBC News, Brewers Concoct Ancient Egyptian Ale, 3rd August 2002

Original article: http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/egypt_alcohol.html#.WgR-bLaZPYo#ixzz4xx4WdH7I
© Caroline Seawright
 
The 40 gallons comes from Our 9,000-Year Love Affair With Booze

The evidence is that there were gatherings of "hundreds of hunter-gatherers" so a kilogram of wild grain each should easily fill the pits with that "38 kg" per 40 gallons. Maybe a few hours work gathering grain for each person?
A possibility is that the construction and maintenance and rites for the site was a religious duty that included a "tithe", e.g. "come to work for X moons, bring food for yourself and wild grains for everyone's beer". So a hunter/gather would collect wild grains over a year and take a proportion of it to GT.

So, you think they collected for ONE batch, in this one fermenter??

How prolific were these wild grains? Did they produce multiple harvests?

Have they found grain cellos yet?

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I oppose your conclusion of a single annual event. NOTHING but pure speculation there.
 
10 November 2017: Citation for "ovens for bread" at Göbekli Tepe

What do the researchers at GT on 07/18/2017 say?

No ovens of any kind in that mound, the large enclosures or implied anywhere in the site.
But I am sure that King of the Americas has a credible source for his assertion.

"...The feature is open to the west. A lack of evidence for burning would speak against its function as an oven. Excavations within the building yielded numerous finds, including chipped stone and animal bone remains. A large stone vessel was found in-situ on the floor of the building."

A lack of evidence for burning?

Large stone vessels situation in the middle of a floor in a room is USUALLY used for what in other ancient building structures?

Good god, it is like they are intentionally ignoring evidence of domestication!
 
No "stone working tools" were found = ???

I believe that finding no such tools means you can't say one way or the other what did or did not happen at GT.
Stone working doesn't require advanced technology. What has definitely not been found anywhere are the products of advanced technology. Therefore we can definitely say it did not happen in ancient times. Worked stones are found so we can say stone working occurred; but as noted, that doesn't require complex tools.
 
I'm not the one making claims of Gobekli Tepe's antiquity based on their purported capacity for brewing. That was you, remember?

Yes, and I have both knowledge and experience with fermenting.

YOU look to be doing homework, as to appear more insightful than originally postulated.
 
What you would bet about the GT brewers is worthless without evidence. If you chew grain and spit it into a jar, beer will result. Alpha-amylase in your saliva will convert starch in the grain into maltose. Wild yeast will start the fermentation of simple di and mono saccharides into alcohol.

Exposure to oxygen will spoil beer some of the time, but no one accused the residents of GT of making Fine Beer.

But I'm making no claims of expertise in ancient archaeology based on brewology. Why are you? Do you have any recipes from 10,000+ years ago?

I stand by my original assertion- that multiple large beer brewing fermenters, require cultivated grain.
 
He is also continuing with the fantasy that Neolithic people used modern technologies, e.g. in the production of wort

We have to wonder how Neolithic people knew about the Celsius scale :).

The history of barley

Göbekli Tepe was built in 2 phases. The first phase with the larger structures was during Pre-Pottery Neolithic A (c. 11,500 – c. 10,000 BP) before barley was domesticated. The second phase overlapped the domestication of barley in other places (PPNB was between 10,700 and ca. 8,000 BP or 7000 - 6000 BCE). However I see no sign of any domesticated barley at Göbekli Tepe.

ETA: Wild barley is not the only way to make simple beer - there is also wild wheat.

The recipe I posted comes from ancient Egypt.
 
I was speaking to a senior lecturer of Polynesian anthropology at the Bishop Museum, in Hawaii three month ago. We were discussing is Polynesians introduced potatoes into Eastern Asia before the Europeans.

You see, there's another nail in your coffin. Your international trade culture of 12,500 ago, "forgot" to exchange potatoes and tomatoes until about 800 years ago.
:eek:

Forget that potatoes and tomatoes can be eradicated by too much rain... Insert rolleyes emotion here.

*Ignore the South American drugs we found in these Egyptian mummies.
 
So, you think they collected for ONE batch, in this one fermenter??

How prolific were these wild grains? Did they produce multiple harvests?

Have they found grain cellos yet?

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I oppose your conclusion of a single annual event. NOTHING but pure speculation there.

Got any evidence that they only brewed one batch in that fermenter?

All species of grain produce multiple harvests.

What's a grain cello? If you mean grain cellar, they've only dug-up 10% of the site. And what's to stop them from storing grain in baskets?
 

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