Materialists......

It doesn't. You said there could not be a definition for the term that I asked. So you're basically trying to support the existence of something that you cannot even define.

Strictly speaking, I don't even claim it exists. I said it was beyond existence/non-existence. To claim it exists is to deny it.

You seemed to claim that because mysticism has a running "theme" it makes it more likely.

That is for you to decide. What is not is a work of fiction by one individual, which was the comparison you tried to make.

You know, this tendency of philosophers to resort to insults is getting quite tiresome.

It wasn't an insult. It was the truth.

Name one example.

Mysticism.

No, YOU'RE the one who keeps hinting that there's SOMETHING out there that's supposed to explain stuff, but you just stubbornly refuse to explain what that is, how it would work or what it could mean.

Yes. Since I can do no better than the Upanishads and the Tao Te Ching, I'm not going to try.
 
Bell's theorem forces us to accept one of four things:

1) Quantum theory is wrong.
2) Logic is wrong.
3) Local Realism is wrong.
4) Some form of ontological idealism is true.

There are no other options. I don't know anyone who defends (1), I am not going to seriously consider (2) and that leaves (3) and (4), both of which seem to imply that materialism is false.

How about 1a) Quantum theory is not understood well enough.
 
Yes. Since I can do no better than the Upanishads and the Tao Te Ching, I'm not going to try.

Then why bother in the first place. You must realise it is highly unlikely any skeptic is going to listen to mysticism/woo without anything other than words and a few 'QMs' here and there. Why don't you go to a woo board and post mystical platitudes that mean nothing (objectively) there?

What I keep failing to understand is why you expect, or even think it is reasonable to hope that people here are going to accept your arguments when they are based on metaphysics and mysticism.
 
That would be a false claim. Bell's theorem is a theorem. Before Bell, claim 1a would have stood. After Bell, it doesn't. We do understand it well enough.

Ok. Looks like I have some reading to do...like I said, I too am/was genuinely interested in QM as the only possibility for developments in metaphysics. That and neuroscience, but neuroscience goes the 'wrong' way...
 
Then why bother in the first place. You must realise it is highly unlikely any skeptic is going to listen to mysticism/woo without anything other than words and a few 'QMs' here and there. Why don't you go to a woo board and post mystical platitudes that mean nothing (objectively) there?

I am not in control of the direction of this thread. I will post as I see fit, depending on what happens and on what I am asked.

What I keep failing to understand is why you expect, or even think it is reasonable to hope that people here are going to accept your arguments when they are based on metaphysics and mysticism.

That depends on what you mean by "people". Some people will reject it outright and compare the history of mysticism to the plot of the Lord of the Rings. Other people, mainly those who lurk, will decide for themselves what to make of such claims, and what to make of the claims that I make.

I've been posting on this board for a long time, DreadNik, and I get lots of different sorts of feedback. I do not believe I am wasting my time here.
 
Ok. Looks like I have some reading to do...like I said, I too am/was genuinely interested in QM as the only possibility for developments in metaphysics. That and neuroscience, but neuroscience goes the 'wrong' way...

http://www.drury.edu/ess/philsci/bell.html

Bell's Theorem

The point here is that the debate between Einstein and Bohr over reality - i.e., whether indeed an independent, external reality exists apart from the observer ("Is the moon there when you're not looking?") - moved from a philosophical debate to a scientific one: with Bell's theorem, it became possible to test the two metaphysical assumptions, i.e., the Einsteinian assumption of a local reality (independent of the observer, etc.) vs. the Copenhagen Interpretation of q.m. (see p. 94)

In particular, Bell's theorem demonstrates a contrast between the correlation to be found between measurements on twin particles:

if local reality is correct, the correlation will lie between -2 and 2;
if q.m. is correct, the correlation (e.g., for detectors at 45 degrees) = 2.83
These numbers mean, notice:

...the quantum world is more highly correlated than any world that depends on a local reality or locally operating hidden variables. (112)

The Experiments:

Briefly, the experimental work confirms the q.m. prediction, not the correlation predicted for local reality.



Implications:

While contemporary physicists/scientists may wish to ignore the "metaphysical" questions and implications surrounding "nonlocality" as now demonstrated via Bell's theorem and the Aspect experiments - Peat suggests that this effort at ignorance is parallel to an earlier reponse, namely, the response to Newton's conception of gravity as "action at a distance." (126)

Indeed, the demonstration of nonlocality is a fundamental paradigm shift out of Newtonian mechanics:

...physics had been wedded to locality, to systems that were well defined within their own particular regions of space and time, and to interactions that involved the transmissions of physical energy across space. The idea of nonlocality appears to deny this most basic fact of everyday experience, for it suggests that distant systems can be connected in a totally new way - a way in which distance no longer seems to matter. (127)
Among the many implications which Peat discusses, let me stress those under the heading "A Connected Universe" (156ff.)

Most generally, quantum mechanics appears to force us to recognize the limits of the "classical" Cartesian/Newtonian atomism and mechanistic picture of the world. While this picture works at a certain scale of reality ("between" the subatomic and the relativistic) - it is not an accurate account of all of reality, nor of "reality" at its most fundamental level.

Rather - if q.m. is correct, "reality" is unitary and connected in ways that correlate nicely with, for example, the direct experiences of connectedness reported in all religious traditions (cf. Peat, 158f.)

http://www.nonlocal.com/hbar/bell.html

In 1964 John showed that the world according to quantum mechanics really is nonlocal. The universe is 'nonlocal at the level of individual events' (even though the locally observable aggregates of the universe predicted by quantum mechanics do not bear any traceable nonlocal signature).
Bell inverted the EPR argument since EPR had used locality as an assumption - Bell's theorem converted EPR's local-realist position into a paradigm of what is not true.
 
Last edited:
Are you openly defending substance dualism..... :shocked:
No, I don't think Descartes gives us any clear idea about what mind is. And none of our experiences lead us to think that mind can exist apart from matter, that mind is anything other than utterly dependent on matter. But Descartes did pretty much define the physical world for us and scientists have been using his conception of it, with minor tweaks, ever since.
 
I am not in control of the direction of this thread.

But you are the thread starter.


That depends on what you mean by "people". Some people will reject it outright and compare the history of mysticism to the plot of the Lord of the Rings.

Imo, if mysticism requires QM to explain it, then mysticism as it is currently known cannot be the same as the QM mysticism, because they didn't know about QM. If you claim the effects of whatever this 'mysticness' is were the reason people 'knew' about mysticism, then it should have enough of an empirically detectable effect. Other than that, I can't see how 'mysticism' is anything other than a vague 'something's out there' assertion.

Other people, mainly those who lurk, will decide for themselves what to make of such claims, and what to make of the claims that I make.
I've been posting on this board for a long time, DreadNik, and I get lots of different sorts of feedback. I do not believe I am wasting my time here.

Obviously and evidently.
 
No, I don't think Descartes gives us any clear idea about what mind is.

He said it was "animal spirits" that met the body in the pineal gland.

And none of our experiences lead us to think that mind can exist apart from matter, that mind is anything other than utterly dependent on matter.

Including me.

But Descartes did pretty much define the physical world for us and scientists have been using his conception of it, with minor tweaks, ever since.

Much more so than they realise. When I debate with people on this board they tend to rant alot about dualism. See Paul's quote in my sig line. The irony is that it is materialism itself which is inherently dualistic, because, as you have indicated here, it is in fact one half of his dualistic system with the other half crudely amputated. Yet those same materialists are the first to accuse anyone who isn't a materialist of being a dualist.
 
There is only so far that logical debate can take you. Sooner or later you arrive at Kant or Wittgenstein and realise that it can take you no further.
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." If only, huh? If only...
 
Imo, if mysticism requires QM to explain it......

I did not argue that and do not believe that. Mysticism must stand on its own. QM merely opens a doorway - it removes some important obstacles.

, then mysticism as it is currently known cannot be the same as the QM mysticism, because they didn't know about QM.

Exactly. But before the scientific revolution and everything that has happened because of it, there are now conceptual obstacles in the way especially for scientists. Most of the people here who would reject mysticism without actually knowing anything but the barest details about it do so not because of anything to do with mysticism but to with an element of their own belief system which renders the whole idea non-sensical before it is even considered. This is a mixture between a belief in naive/local/direct realism combined with an understandable respect for the authority of materialistic science. Before the scientific revolution, there were just naive realists and people influenced by mysticism. It was far simpler. But why bother learning about mysticism or the history of religion when you know it's all a load of nonsense anyway? QM has the capacity to cut through both the belief in local realism AND the deferal to science as an authority. It is science, not philosophy, and it denies rather than confirms local realism. At this point it has done nothing to support mysticism, it has merely removed some misunderstandings.

If you claim the effects of whatever this 'mysticness' is were the reason people 'knew' about mysticism, then it should have enough of an empirically detectable effect.

That is not neccessarily true as discussed in the "woos calling us the woos" thread. Some things are only subjectively knowable. This is the ultimate example of those things.
 
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent." If only, huh? If only...

Neither Kant nor Wittgenstein actually expected people to stop practising metaphysics after them. Neither does Rorty. Human beings cannot help themselves. Somebody will always ask these questions and somebody will always try to answer them.

Although if the entire world actually got as far as either Kant or Wittgenstein, there would no longer be any need to talk about metaphysics. The debate is never-ending precisely because neither Kant nor Wittgenstein were ever likely to have a large enough readership to make any impact on the wider human race.
 
Ok well I'm still going with the reading, but so far it seems to me to be (very crudely): "Science can't explain some things. One of these things is QM and nonlocality. Therefore science must be unable to explain it (?!?!? Science was unable to explain a great many things that it now can). Materialism = Science. Therefore, materialism is unable to explain [currently unexplained thing]."

You then appear to take it one step (giant leap of faith?) further and say: "therefore, meaningful synchronicities can occur".
 
Ok well I'm still going with the reading, but so far it seems to me to be (very crudely): "Science can't explain some things. One of these things is QM and nonlocality. Therefore science must be unable to explain it (?!?!? Science was unable to explain a great many things that it now can). Materialism = Science. Therefore, materialism is unable to explain [currently unexplained thing]."

You then appear to take it one step (giant leap of faith?) further and say: "therefore, meaningful synchronicities can occur".

Not quite. It's the same as the reply I gave in the previous post. All this stuff does is deny local realism and provide an example of scientifically-verified non-local connections between different parts of reality. This is a long way short of demonstrating the existence of synchronicity. It just makes it seem less implausible.
 
Bell's theorem forces us to accept one of four things:

1) Quantum theory is wrong.
2) Logic is wrong.
3) Local Realism is wrong.
4) Some form of ontological idealism is true.

There are no other options. I don't know anyone who defends (1), I am not going to seriously consider (2) and that leaves (3) and (4), both of which seem to imply that materialism is false.

Ok, well, I made a slight misreading of this earlier, I read it as 3 => materialism is false, rather than 3 => materialism might be/seems to imply materialism is false.

But then seem is a tricky word:

Not quite. It's the same as the reply I gave in the previous post. All this stuff does is deny local realism and provide an example of scientifically-verified non-local connections between different parts of reality. This is a long way short of demonstrating the existence of synchronicity. It just makes it seem less implausible.

I agree...it makes it SEEM less implausible :)
 
Strictly speaking, I don't even claim it exists. I said it was beyond existence/non-existence. To claim it exists is to deny it.

I'm going to ignore that last bit as beign nonsensical.

That is for you to decide. What is not is a work of fiction by one individual, which was the comparison you tried to make.

Oh, no. Please. What DID you mean when you claimed mysticism had a theme ?

It wasn't an insult. It was the truth.

Oh ? Then your claim :

"The only difference is that you don't know your beliefs are beliefs. "

Can only be described as eligible for the million-dollar challenge, seeing as such you aren't a psychic. Don't tell me what I think, especially now that I've explained my assumption.

Mysticism.

An example of something that exists, Geoff. Why am I not surprised ?
 
I did not argue that and do not believe that. Mysticism must stand on its own. QM merely opens a doorway - it removes some important obstacles.

How so ?

Some things are only subjectively knowable. This is the ultimate example of those things.

I'm not sure ANYTHING is only subjectively knowable, unless you play with words to make them impossible to objectively evaluate by definition.
 
I'm going to ignore that last bit as beign nonsensical.

It's rather an important bit to ignore.

Oh, no. Please. What DID you mean when you claimed mysticism had a theme ?

I meant that it is worthy of interest simply because so many different people from so many different cultures over such a long period of time said such strikingly similar things.
 

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom