Materialists......

I think it is fair to say that of all the philosophers we studied during that time, it was Dennett whose position was the most obscure.
That's most philosophers for me. Their insistance on giving names to things that have no "referent", (like 'qualia') just bumfoozles me. But I know from painful self-appraisal that it is miraculous how one can feel superior to those who know less than you while simultaneously feeling in no way inferior to those who know more than you.
 
OK, a wave of guilt has come over me. I have probably been far too hard on Paul. The truth is that there are some people here who make no real effort to understand what I write and think they have debunked my position when in fact they haven't really got a clue what it is. Paul is not one of those. Instead, he has made a near-heroic effort to understand my position and has regularly changed his own, even if the experience (for me) was akin to pulling a mule in a direction it did not want go - one inch at a time. It is partly for this reason that I went bananas at him for claiming he didn't know the difference between a brain process and a subjective experience, because I felt that by now he ought really to have got beyond saying such things. I expect it from Kevin, but not Paul. But partly I am just in a bad frame of mind because I've given up smoking dope to revise for my exams and being a habitual dope-smoker this doesn't do very much for my patience and my tolerance. So if you are reading this Paul, I apologise. I am now going to get something to smoke, and I will return in a better frame of mind.

:)
 
OK, a wave of guilt has come over me. I have probably been far too hard on Paul. The truth is that there are some people here who make no real effort to understand what I write and think they have debunked my position when in fact they haven't really got a clue what it is. Paul is not one of those. Instead, he has made a near-heroic effort to understand my position and has regularly changed his own, even if the experience (for me) was akin to pulling a mule in a direction it did not want go - one inch at a time. It is partly for this reason that I went bananas at him for claiming he didn't know the difference between a brain process and a subjective experience, because I felt that by now he ought really to have got beyond saying such things. I expect it from Kevin, but not Paul. But partly I am just in a bad frame of mind because I've given up smoking dope to revise for my exams and being a habitual dope-smoker this doesn't do very much for my patience and my tolerance. So if you are reading this Paul, I apologise. I am now going to get something to smoke, and I will return in a better frame of mind.

:)

Always nice to see someone unafraid of offering a retraction/apology.

And I empathise in two ways 1) university exams (last one for me on wedsnesday!) 2) A fellow dope fiend.

However you're still a philosophy student ;)

Peace.
 
Always nice to see someone unafraid of offering a retraction/apology.

And I empathise in two ways 1) university exams (last one for me on wedsnesday!) 2) A fellow dope fiend.

However you're still a philosophy student ;)

Peace.

Dr. Jekyll is back. What do you study, DreadNiK?
 
That's most philosophers for me. Their insistance on giving names to things that have no "referent", (like 'qualia') just bumfoozles me. But I know from painful self-appraisal that it is miraculous how one can feel superior to those who know less than you while simultaneously feeling in no way inferior to those who know more than you.
/me nods wrt qualia.

Every definition of qualia i have read seems to say a whole lot about not much. The redness of red, the edgeness of edges, the desirability of pleasure -- just seems to be so much overcompartmentalization of ideas.
 
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Geoff said:
Good. So why did you claim that you had no idea how to distinguish between them, Paul?
I done thought you wuz talking about the two things themselfs, not merely the concepts about them. Of course we's got two concepts. Heckeroonies, we probably have 100 concepts.

~~ Paul
 
Geoff said:
So if you are reading this Paul, I apologise. I am now going to get something to smoke, and I will return in a better frame of mind.
Geez, no wonder this conversation is content free. Geoff, d00d, get back to smoking the dope!

~~ Paul

Edited to add: Apology accepted.
 
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Yeah, clear as mud. As one of the people contributing to that page summarises brilliantly:

http://www.consciousentities.com/dennett.htm said:
Disciple: Dan, I've absorbed and internalised your theory and at last I really understand and believe it fully. But recently I've been having a difficulty.

Dennett: What's that?

Disciple: Well, I can't seem to adopt the intentional stance any more.

Dennett: Wow. It's really very simple. Deep breaths now. Look at the target (use me if you like). Now just attribute to me some plausible conscious states and intentions.

Disciple: But... What would that be like? What are conscious states? For you to have conscious states just means I can usefully deal with you as if you had ... conscious states. I seem to be caught in a kind of vicious circle unless I just somehow know what conscious states are...

Dennett: Steady now. Just think, what would I be likely to do if I had the kind of real, original intentions which people talk about? How would things with intentions behave?

Disciple: I have no idea. There are no things with real intentions. I'm not even sure any more what 'real intentions' means...

Knowing everything there is to know about tetrahydrocannabinol doesn't make it any less of an interesting substance. :)

The response to this little piece of comedy was "yes, you have to give up some cherished notions to understand Dennett". The trouble is, the "cherished notions" he is asking me to give up actually make sense, and Dennett doesn't. :(

Then my not having those cherished notions to begin with probably helped. I found Dennett fairly easy to understand.


If you cannot explain something clearly, you probably do not understand it. I do not believe Dennett understands consciousness, and what he has explained is, to me, clear as mud.

An inteesting example of the Multiple Drafts model of consciousness is what is happening in this thread. Not an exact analogy, mind you, but a funny one.
 
I am sorry that I am late. It is I who Geoff was debating when we came to this. I had to work all day yesterday, and I was too tired to respond last night.

I am willing to admit that I was wrong if that is what it comes to. Perhaps we should start with what I actually said (pieced together from several posts).

What looks like red to me is a combination of the physical aspects of my eyes and brain, and is theoretically, if not practically, knowable by others.

Because how red looks to me is entirely describable by the brain processes in my head. I know that this is point on which we disagree, but I do not accept subjective as anything more than a linguistic term used to describe things based on how we see them, which is a lot easier than describing the actual processes going on, though it theoretically can be done.

I don't feel that this is going to go anywhere, Geoff. You feel that there is something more to seeing red than the physical processes, and I do not. I feel that it is possible to completely describe me seeing red in physical terms. Light from a certain range of the spectrum enters my eyes, it is detected by cells able to discern the spectrum, this data travels down my optical nerve, and is interpreted by the completely physical processes of the brain to become the "experience of seeing red"

I don't feel that I have denied that there is a concept of "subjectivity", but simply claimed that anything which is subjective is able to be described in objective terms. Of course, this is a vastly different definition of subjective than you use, and I admit that it is arrived at by assuming materialism.

Perhaps it will help if I admit my disbelief in free-will or any sort of free agent.
 
Materialism (or physicalism, doesn't make much difference which) is a worldview which treats the external physical world as the only reality. Nearly all of modern science implicitly works within this framework...
It simply escapes me how people can keep repeating this blatantly wrong point of view. Especially from someone who claims to have studied the philosophy of science.

Did you never study Ernst Mach? Did your course never discuss his importance in the philosophy of science. Did you not learn that Ernst Mach believed that the metaphysical reality made no difference to science, and that life might all be a dream, but science would not be affected just so long as it were a consistent dream?

It seems to me that the underlying philosophy of science is positivism rather than materialism. Or physicalism in the original sense (which had nothing to do with materialism).

I have posted many quotes on this site before to show that influential scientists are normally not materialists. Einstein was not, Hawking is not. I doubt, in fact, that any physicist is a materialist since if they knew precisely what was meant by “matter” they would be out of a job.

So let’s have no more of this nonsensical claim.
 
I don't feel that I have denied that there is a concept of "subjectivity", but simply claimed that anything which is subjective is able to be described in objective terms.

This is the crux of the problem, from a linguistic point of view. The following link may help:

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cach...oblem?+undergraduate&hl=en&gl=uk&ct=clnk&cd=1

5. No statement ascribing a mental predicate can be derived from any set of purely physical descriptions.

Finally, there is (5). What reason is there for thinking that is true? Well, we can compare it with a number of similar principles to get the general idea. In moral philosophy, there is a principle sometimes called Hume's law that says it is not possible to derive a normative judgement from a descriptive judgement. A normative judgement is a judgement about what is good or bad, right or wrong, and a descriptive judgement is basically anything else. Another way this is stated is that you cannot deduce an "ought" from an "is": you can't derive what ought to be the case solely on the basis of what is the case. This principle is almost universally acknowledged. And it is merely part of a more general pattern. For example, you can't derive a statement describing distances from any set of statements that don't describe distances. You can not derive a statement about colors from any set of non-color statements. You can't derive geometrical statements from non-geometrical ones. And generally, if you have an inference in which the conclusion talks about one thing and the premises talk about something else, the inference is invalid. In the same way, it is a conceptual truth that you cannot derive a mental description from a physical description. After all, just consider some physical concepts, such as spatial/geometrical properties, mass, force, and electric charge. Is it plausible that there is any way that these concepts could be used to explain what it feels like to be in pain? Say whatever you like about masses, positions, and forces of particles, you will not have ascribed any mental states to anything.

Descartes argued that he could clearly and distinctly conceive of any physical state existing without any conscious experiences accompanying it, so it follows that conscious experiences cannot be derived solely on the basis of the existence of any given physical state. And it looks as if he is right. We can forgo the Cartesian lingo about clear and distinct conceptions and say that for any physical description, that description could have been true even if there were no such thing as consciousness. Another way to put this is the following: for any physical property P, it is an open question whether a thing that has P is conscious. It makes sense to ask, "Granted that it has the feature P, but can it really think/feel/etc.?" and it's a significant question, so it follows that saying a thing has P is different from saying it is conscious, so having P can't be the same thing as thinking/feeling/etc. Of course, it might turn out that everything that has P is conscious, but that would be an additional piece of information beyond the fact that everything that has P has P.

But from this it follows that physical descriptions do not explain why there is consciousness, since they don't say anything about consciousness. They talk about a different subject matter.

Now it might be tried to challenge the sharp mental/physical dichotomy that has been drawn, to claim that mental and physical are not two mutually exclusive categories corresponding to completely different subject matters but that mental things can also simultaneously be physical. This view flies in the face of common sense (as well as the above argument), and I don't find it very comprehensible. But moreover, it won't help matters any because I could just as well have substituted "non-mental" for "physical" everywhere in the statement of the five theses and their defense. That is, we can simply restate (3) as, properties of atoms are all non-mental, and (5) as, non-mental properties cannot entail mental properties, and the problem is back in full force without having to assume that "physical" = "non-mental".

Posted by Jeremy:

Perhaps it will help if I admit my disbelief in free-will or any sort of free agent.

Yes, this helps. I wish Franko was here. :)
 
It simply escapes me how people can keep repeating this blatantly wrong point of view. Especially from someone who claims to have studied the philosophy of science.

Did you never study Ernst Mach? Did your course never discuss his importance in the philosophy of science. Did you not learn that Ernst Mach believed that the metaphysical reality made no difference to science, and that life might all be a dream, but science would not be affected just so long as it were a consistent dream?

It seems to me that the underlying philosophy of science is positivism rather than materialism. Or physicalism in the original sense (which had nothing to do with materialism).

I have posted many quotes on this site before to show that influential scientists are normally not materialists. Einstein was not, Hawking is not. I doubt, in fact, that any physicist is a materialist since if they knew precisely what was meant by “matter” they would be out of a job.

So let’s have no more of this nonsensical claim.

I guess you've read this then:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...102-1355248-3924120?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

If not, you're in for a treat. :)
 
Jeremy said:
I know that this is point on which we disagree, but I do not accept subjective as anything more than a linguistic term used to describe things based on how we see them, which is a lot easier than describing the actual processes going on, though it theoretically can be done.
Well good gosheroonies! Not two viewpoints!

Robin said:
Did you never study Ernst Mach? Did your course never discuss his importance in the philosophy of science. Did you not learn that Ernst Mach believed that the metaphysical reality made no difference to science, and that life might all be a dream, but science would not be affected just so long as it were a consistent dream?
Holy epistemology, Batman!

~~ Paul
 
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JustGeoff said:
So the thing which is "over and above a physical process" is the subjective experiences associated with the relevant brain activity. Now, what the consequences of this are going to be for the wider worldview of the materialist is no immediate concern of mine - and whether or not you think this disproves materialism is another matter entirely. Maybe the problem can be solved. Just do not try to tell me you do not even know what the problem is, because you might just as well tell me that Jesus fed five thousand people with a single basket of fishes. And that would be stupid, wouldn't it?
Nobody will know what the problem is unless you actually state it. How am I supposed to know what this problem is from a disjointed and emotional rant like your OP?

Just state clearly, simply and precisely what you believe the problem to be. Leave out the ad hominem and the stuff about Jesus and fishes, it is not relevant.

And if you claim that you have reason to believe that subjective experience is “over and above a physical process”, state your reasoning and define in which sense you are using the word “physical”.

But don’t tell me it is stupid to claim that I don’t know what the problem if you refuse to state what the problem is.
 
This is the crux of the problem, from a linguistic point of view. The following link may help:

easily criticised undergrad paper
Well, that is a problem with undergrad papers -- they tend to miss things. That paper's vision of the mind/body problem is demolished by the concept of supervenience, which is a necessary part of any meaningful conception of physicalism.
(Extremly short version -- patterns of matter matter! Especially those that change over time!)

That, and point 5 in the paper

5. No statement ascribing a mental predicate can be derived from any set of purely physical descriptions.
​

is hardly a tenable thesis.
 
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