Houla Massacre, Syria: What If?

[Virus]

Seems like the poor Syrians will exchange one Satrap for another with a different master. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

You don't know that.

 

[Caustic Logic]

You don't know that.

But you know he's wrong. The crusader doesn't proceed on guesses but iron certainty.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Nobody lied to me. Stop being foolish. I know what I see. People being killed by all sides. I even mentioned there was undesirables on the rebel side. What did you do? Snipped it out.

Blinkers man, blinkers.

Maybe it didn't catch you personally, (you might've missed the Sari incident, but not likely the Houla massacre), but these were - or might be - lies sent out to you and me and all the other malleable infidels out here. How you can be sure otherwise I can't fathom.

Undesirable, sure, and their acts. I didn't notice you saying that, but I'll credit you. The question one can't even have a good guess at without some study is what percentage of the murdered Syrians, especially young children, have been killed by that side? My study still suggests it was 100% of the reported 49 kids killed in Houla, and by extension, every other carbon-copy MO massacre is suspect... Do I know they lied? No. Can I say they didn't? No. You can, but not me.

Says the person who stll maintained Gadaffi still had the support of the majority in Libya. Pot -> kettle.

No, read again what he was calling an "admission." It's just stupid, and I was letting him know, like when someone's zipper is down or their brain is falling halfway out of their head.

Seems like the poor Syrians will exchange one Satrap for another with a different master. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

For good or ill, if there was no difference, of course, there'd be no point going to all this hassle for it. Food for thought.

 

[Moss]

For good or ill, if there was no difference, of course, there'd be no point going to all this hassle for it. Food for thought.

The difference I see seems to lie on who the new leader is going to be beholden to. Assad seems to have been the force projector for China and Russia, the new one is likely to be one for the UAE or the Saudis.

 

[JihadJane]

The difference I see seems to lie on who the new leader is going to be beholden to. Assad seems to have been the force projector for China and Russia, the new one is likely to be one for the UAE or the Saudis.

You missed out Syria's regional ally, Iran, " NATO's" actual target.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yeah, those sorts of changes. The new Syria hopefully will let us use their country as a base to attack Iran from, or at the very least as one less friend for them. Other consideration are surely motivating but I don't feel up to guessing aside from feeling that's one of them, and the main one. The Russians would lose a base, of course.

But general things are best covered at the other Syria thread or a new one. Here I'd like to add another Houla massacre witness for consideration. Hassan Abdul Razzaq, spoke to the UK Daily Fail on June 8/9. He didn't directly witness the killings and escape by playing dead, in his story. But he heard them, sort of, and is a witness to the AbdulRazaq family being a rebel one (for his part anyway), and presumably, by the lack of mention of religion, as a Sunni one still.

Is he reliable?
http://acloserlookonsyria.wikinet.org/wiki/Hassan_Abdel-Razzaq
(entry not complete yet, will be tonight)

For proof, he's got photos of the family when alive, all six killed members in his house. These would be available to someone who lived in the home (like him, and still living there safely as of June 9, he says) or someone who entered the home (like the killers). There are no images of Hassan among these shared shots, and no images from his Skype talk with the Daily Fail to compare them to anyway. But we're to presume ...

There are also photos at the Fail article of the three sons after execution-graphic. Abdullah, the 10-year-old with CP has the back of his head hacked open and his brain has fallen out. Bad stuff, but an oblique side-view (there's a back view I've also seen). Hassan suggests he himself took these pro-grade photos, taken the next day at the mosque when the UN monitors were present (judging by the match with the other photos I've seen that show that scene).

“I wanted the world to see what happened to my family. I also took pictures so that there would be evidence of what had happened.”

I'd be curious to track down the source of the photos (besides Best Gore, no link here) and who actually took them. I doubt it was Hassan Abdulrazaq.

How he survived, he says: When he was warned of an impending Shabiha attack on the 25th, Hassan said, “I immediately made plans to get away.” The Mail reports his mindset - arrested twice for peaceful protests but never charged, afraid for his own safety, but no clue they'd try to to kill his family. So, he split off for safety. "When Hassan left the house, nothing had happened in the town to suggest the Shabiha were intent on carrying out systematic killings,” though he felt sure he would be targeted. “My only hope was to get away until the militia left.”

Even when “he heard shouting and the noise of the baby crying” from his nearby hiding spot, “I had no idea what was really going on inside the house. My reaction was to stay away from the soldiers and then to return a few hours later.”

Note he mentions the sounds of shouting and crying, but not shooting, even though at least two of this family's kids were reportedly shot (one verifiably, in the head), and among these 8/9 family homes clustered together near the dam were most of the victims - 62 Abdelrazaqs killed that day, most by gunshot. But he saw/heard none of it, and had no idea until he saw his family dead.

Orly?

 

[Mycroft]

Read that again.

Mycroft - you think you know. How?

Sorry, did I say something controversial?

 

[Caustic Logic]

Sorry, did I say something controversial?

The whole side-issue is better covered in the other thread, but (and sorry for not specifying) it's about how many Syrians support the rebels/terrorists vs. how many support the tyranical regime/government and how we can be sure we've got the majority's interest's in mind. (And remember Sunni does not necessarily mean rebel supporter, despite the rebels' best efforts to make this a war of the Sunni majority against all the rest).

For my part, I don't claim to know, but my guess is true rebel supporters are no more than maybe 30% of the total population. And most of those I think would reject it if they knew what was really going on (see the rest of the thread).

 

[Caustic Logic]

This is especially troubling given that Alawites were only blamed by the activists with the fake-seeming witnesses and the logic-free accusations.

Alex Thomson reports (below the main article):

Another man was shouting of revenge in excellent English: ‘We will win! And when we do we will do it to them. We will kill them. We will kill their children.’

Some bystanders murmered ‘No’ and ‘Please, no’, but plenty more cheered.
Like so many in Houla they claimed to know the places where the killers came from.

We got on to a roof and the villages were pointed out to us, but when we arrived, there was no sign of the killers.

From the comments here, originally here, aired March 14 apparently, prior to the massacre at Taldou/Houla.

Haiduk 06/21/12 14:56
March 14, 2012 Sheik Muhammad Badi' Moussa said on Al-Hekma TV "brothers in the Free Syrian Army" approached him and asked if it was "permissible to kill Alawite women and their children in retaliation for their [??] actions". — His answer: "Yes, my brother." External Link
To my understanding the Sheik belongs to Syria's MB.

Right from the Jihad Watch link:

[The 'Alawites] know that they are a minority in our country, and that all the sects hate them and want to get rid of them. It is not [??] in their best interest to follow the regime.

 

[Toontown]

You missed out Syria's regional ally, Iran, " NATO's" actual target.

Ayahtollahs really know how to win friends and influence people.

All the wrong friends. All the wrong people. Seems to be a national trait. Not a good trait for these times, in that region. A religio-testosterone-boy could get himself nuked, playing little jack-jack games.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I was waiting for C.E. to post this, but for what it's worth, Spiegel has a set of six video interviews, now subtitled in English, of six rebel witnesses, again posing as representatives of ALL witnesses.

http://www.spiegel.de/flash/flash-29263.html

What might help bolster the rebel story is if these people could show consistency in the details they report. (or would it?) I still haven't taken the watch more than a few portions of some of these (just glad they playon my old system), but just in case one of our many resident skeptics (who know the diktater we gittin this time is guilty of everything) could have a look and tell us what's extra compelling here.

 

[funk de fino]

I was waiting for C.E. to post this, but for what it's worth, Spiegel has a set of six video interviews, now subtitled in English, of six rebel witnesses, again posing as representatives of ALL witnesses.

http://www.spiegel.de/flash/flash-29263.html

What might help bolster the rebel story is if these people could show consistency in the details they report. (or would it?) I still haven't taken the watch more than a few portions of some of these (just glad they playon my old system), but just in case one of our many resident skeptics (who know the diktater we gittin this time is guilty of everything) could have a look and tell us what's extra compelling here.

If they got everything, and every detail, identical would that not be more suspicious?

 

[Caustic Logic]

If they got everything, and every detail, identical would that not be more suspicious?

Ah you caught the trick. I was hoping to trick someone into pulling out the small-scale agreements shared by the group speaking to one journalist but not the body of witnesses. Lot of those with the shed massacre in Libya... I didn't think it would work anyway, and will be finding them myself when I have time.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I mean, you seem to have sort-of caught it. I also catch your point that witnesses do disagree a little. And here, discrepancies won't even hardly occur - we have like a dozen homes hit, enclosed walls, one or so survivors alleged in each spot. There's little to agree or disagree on between that scattered pool (not like at the Khamis Brigade Shed massacre, where some around 30 people disagree wildly over one alleged event is a one-room shed prison))

Miracle survivors, always a little suspect. Detecting Alawite accents, slogans and songs, slogans painted on foreheads, etc, troubling.

Ali is the star for having three detailed accounts himself that disagree. We can presume he saw the same scene and had the same family as himself.

Spiegel also has an article, with a few problems I can spot off the bat (like - who ever said the Sayid family converted? No one until now, and that's Spiegel, as a straw man), as well as a new star witness, Maryam (not new, we had her on file, but her stardom is new). And they have a fourth talk with Ali (no video, cause video of a skype talk sucks)...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/a-look-back-at-the-houla-massacre-in-syria-a-845854.html

WITNESS IV

It was late in the evening, and 11-year-old Ali Adil Sayyid had been kept awake for hours by the sound of nearby shelling. "I heard voices outside at about 11 p.m. 'Turn off the light! Open the door!' they said. But the electricity was off, anyway. I heard them hitting the bottom of the door, but then they left.

I woke up again just before 4 a.m., when men came into the house. My brother and I were lying in the living room. When my sister Rasha tried to run away, one of the men shot her. My brother Adil was still sleeping when a man shot at him. A piece of Adil's head was missing after that. The man also shot at me, but he didn't hit me. I rolled over on my side and played dead. Then the men took two TV sets, our washing machine and the computer. I heard the sound of a BMB outside" -- a type of armored personnel carrier used by the Syrian army.

According to Ali, his severely wounded brother Nadir "was still making noises, as if he had the hiccups. Then he died."

Ali Adil Sayyid, the only surviving member of his family, is a distant relative of Abdulmuti Mashlab, a member of the Syrian parliament. This circumstance prompted UN observers to make the assumption that people were killed because of their family ties to a regime official. But Mashlab, says Ali, was merely the uncle of his uncle's wife. Ali says that he and his father had gone to many demonstrations until last fall, "and we always bought kebabs and cola first!" But his father was arrested in November, "and he was afraid to go after that."

So not the evil uncle?

Also, his stolen items list has broken down. Sadly, that was a consistent point before: 3 TVs, a computer, and a vacuum cleaner.

 

[funk de fino]

Miracle survivors, always a little suspect. Detecting Alawite accents, slogans and songs, slogans painted on foreheads, etc, troubling.

Only if you do not live in the real world. I'll give you 2 examples:-

1. My grandfather during 2nd World war. The rest of his comdrades were shot by Germans and he lay beneath a few dead bodies and played dead. Was caught later and put in a POW camp in Poland. Survived the death march at the end of the war.

2. The survivors in the stair well of one of the twin towers.

"You see what you wanna see, hear what you wanna hear"

 

[Childlike Empress]

And they have a fourth talk with Ali (no video, cause video of a skype talk sucks)...

Although they don't say it, I suspect that they did not publish an Ali video out of youth protection reasons. Quite strong guidelines for this in Germany. (the other six alleged witnesses have accompanying video snippets linked by CL above)

Did you notice that we now have three alleged FSA witnesses all named "Bak(o)ur"?

Already checked the alleged perpetrators list from ANNA but wasn't lucky there.

 

[Childlike Empress]

If they got everything, and every detail, identical would that not be more suspicious?

The problem is that we have two rather strong sets of witnesses who both differ internally on details, but overall tell two stories almost diametrically opposed. See here.

 

[funk de fino]

The problem is that we have two rather strong sets of witnesses who both differ internally on details, but overall tell two stories almost diametrically opposed. See here.

Stories of things like this are expected to differ. That's the point. You go back to a lifechanging event in your life that you shared with someone else you wouldn't both get the details correct. If you did it would be suspect.

Do you believe that miracle survivors make things suspect? It seems the bias here needs that to be the case.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Stories of things like this are expected to differ. That's the point. You go back to a lifechanging event in your life that you shared with someone else you wouldn't both get the details correct. If you did it would be suspect.

Do you believe that miracle survivors make things suspect? It seems the bias here needs that to be the case.

Apparently you didn't read the (my) very brief summaries behind the link. Those are not details, those are absolute basic differences, of the kind honest witnesses can not disagree on through faulty memory. One set of those witnesses is making it up. And if one set cannot keep their own alleged family connections straight, that indeed makes them suspicious. And everybody else on that set, including miracle survivors.

 

[funk de fino]

It's win-win isnt it. A miracle survivor is suspect. No survivors is suspect. Difference in the stories are suspect. Identical stories would be suspect.

If only you looked at flyover witness with as much critique you may not support those morons that created that nonsense anymore!