Houla Massacre, Syria: What If?

[funk de fino]

And will Virus or FdF ever accept the challenge I set out above? Is there anything true about what that kid Ali says? Why do you guys buy activist myth laundered through an adorable 8yo kid?

Do you realize what happened at Al-Houla and why the truth of it matters? Or is this all just a game of 'get the dictator,' with truth or lies or whatever? Because if so you run the risk of playing the parallel game of 'absolve the false-flagging child slashers and put them in charge of all Syrians.' It can happen with or without your help, but you really want to keep playing these games?

I am buying nothing. You are the only one playing games. And your MO is pathetic considering people are being murdered while you pick at a few media stories and ignore the multitudes of others. There were people posting about syria here while you were still bleating about Gadaffi and the Libya nonsense in your ill informed and flawed way.

 

[Childlike Empress]

I am buying nothing. You are the only one playing games. And your MO is pathetic considering people are being murdered while you pick at a few media stories and ignore the multitudes of others. There were people posting about syria here while you were still bleating about Gadaffi and the Libya nonsense in your ill informed and flawed way.

Why don't you show us that "multitude" of original information saying otherwise, funk? In fact, after only a few days and flows of original misinformation, nobody of any objectivity including Wikipedia is calling Tremseh a "massacre" anymore. Well, ok, we decided to not rename our article, but only for educational purposes. It says a lot about the broader issue.

 

[DC]

deleted

 

[funk de fino]

Why don't you show us that "multitude" of original information saying otherwise, funk? In fact, after only a few days and flows of original misinformation, nobody of any objectivity including Wikipedia is calling Tremseh a "massacre" anymore. Well, ok, we decided to not rename our article, but only for educational purposes. It says a lot about the broader issue.

This is how holocaust deniers or truthers work. They concentrate on small pieces. Ignoring the rest.

And sorry, but anyone who still believe in that fly over nonsense cannot be taken seriously about anything. I'll reply to CL if he wishes, but not a fly over supporter. It is a waste of effort.

 

[Childlike Empress]

This is how holocaust deniers or truthers work. They concentrate on small pieces. Ignoring the rest.

And sorry, but anyone who still believe in that fly over nonsense cannot be taken seriously about anything. I'll reply to CL if he wishes, but not a fly over supporter. It is a waste of effort.

Nice ad hom, funk. Not that I expected anything worth arguing or even on topic, just plugging the link.

 

[funk de fino]

Nice ad hom, funk. Not that I expected anything worth arguing or even on topic, just plugging the link.

Names not funk, childlike.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Ah., Mr. De Fino. Ms. Empress.

If you buy nothing, then why disapprove of "picking holes" in something you apparently consider solid, when people were killed at Tremseh. Murdered by whom? You seem to think you've got something figured out here.

As CE says the balance of reporting here, alt and mainstream, is coming around to a lost battle, not a massacre. How and why it started are still pretty up in the air, but there's nothing solid we're just finding tiny holes in.

ETA: And my main question was on the previous Houla massacre that I gather you still buy the rebel version of. Why? Is there anything true about what that kid Ali says? Why do you buy an activist myth laundered through an adorable 8yo kid?

 

[funk de fino]

Ah., Mr. De Fino. Ms. Empress.

If you buy nothing, then why disapprove of "picking holes" in something you apparently consider solid, when people were killed at Tremseh. Murdered by whom? You seem to think you've got something figured out here.

Try finding any post of mine where I buy anything. Slipping back into old habits CL.

As CE says the balance of reporting here, alt and mainstream, is coming around to a lost battle, not a massacre. How and why it started are still pretty up in the air, but there's nothing solid we're just finding tiny holes in.

Expand your focus, take your blinkers off and think about the dead people all over that country rather than feeding your own ego.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Try finding any post of mine where I buy anything. Slipping back into old habits CL.

I caught that you said you buy nothing. What I was asking is where's this moral certainty you slap me with coming from if so. Renting? Ask for your money back.

Expand your focus, take your blinkers off and think about the dead people all over that country rather than feeding your own ego.

Lol! I have facts, a number of them if clearly not all. They relate to who's killing people to put pressure on the reflexively blamed "evil regime." You offer nothing but vague second-guessing. See the added question above for something concrete - expand to one, report back, if you want to be taken seriously.

But thanks for coming back at all and giving me a chance to perhaps chase you back off like that. Feel free to stick around or actually add an evidence-based observation on the way out.

 

[Caustic Logic]

Expand your focus, take your blinkers off and think about the dead people all over that country

Also, it takes us a bit off-topic, but at your request. I've considered one other case in some detail (detail=useful), a nine-year-old boy shot dead by snipers, blamed on the government, in Homs back in November.
http://www.syrianews.cc/syria-troubling-story-dead-syrian-child-videos/
One is not many, I know. How many cases have you studied?

Virus? Same questions...

 

[Caustic Logic]

Telling typo I just noticed from Al Arabiya's (Saudi Arabia) initial English report, July 12 - first line, second word, I presume, is spelled wrong:
"At last 250 people have been killed in a new massacre committed by the Syrian forces..."

As Wahabbis who don't believe in Freud and his slips, are the Saudis more or less likely to make them?

 

[Caustic Logic]

this is more about the tone of things

I'd like to add that I haven't been in top argument form last few days, a little caught up in other things, etc. Might've been sloppy in some thinking, and I haven't yet gotten a grasp on the evidence like CE is getting at the wiki. What I've said 'til now is speculative and semi-informed and still seems totally possible. However, both sides have multiple versions coming out, lots of confusion.

ETA: That's in ref. to the Tremseh situation.

So it wasn't from a prime position I made that little stand demanding respect. But I stand by it anyway, and personally, I'm seeing a little more rudeness in general to CE and JJ than I consider to be warranted. It's not massive, but, eh, thought I should say something.

Tho I am still puzzled by CE's ability to be impressed with CIT's stuff, I'm sure the glitch is simple when you get to it. She's really pretty smart in many ways, and they are sorta wormy and tricky. She's doing good stuff where it matters most, that is, the subject at hand, hello?

 

[funk de fino]

I caught that you said you buy nothing. What I was asking is where's this moral certainty you slap me with coming from if so. Renting? Ask for your money back.



Lol! I have facts, a number of them if clearly not all. They relate to who's killing people to put pressure on the reflexively blamed "evil regime." You offer nothing but vague second-guessing. See the added question above for something concrete - expand to one, report back, if you want to be taken seriously.

But thanks for coming back at all and giving me a chance to perhaps chase you back off like that. Feel free to stick around or actually add an evidence-based observation on the way out.

My point is. You are picking holes in little parts of an overall narrative. You are looking at the trees but not the woods. And because a tree doesnt come up smelling of roses you are dismissing (or ignoring) everything else. It's a truther trick.

I don't slavishly believe the mass media on this. I certainly do not believe everything you post. This is based on your Libya stuff and your MO. An awful lot of what you think is fact based is a awful lot of speculation on your part yet you fail to see it. The mass media does this a lot also because that is it's business. Funnily enough you seem to catch it when they do it.

What I do know is that there are thousands being killed by Assad and his regime. There are many undesirables fighting against that regime just as there are many brave and noble people doing the same. Both sides will use every trick in the book to get sympathy. It's nothing new or unsusual.

In the end, for me, it's not about gotchas and who did what. It's about looking into what can be done and not jumping to conclusions about what will be done.

I don't see evil motives behind everything everybody ever does. Try it.

 

[HoverBoarder]

Lol. Anybody can imagine how that works? These Shabiha guys are real devils, forcing the poor army to massacre civilians. Assad, you thug!!!!1

I think you might be getting a little too much enjoyment out of this whole Syrian massacre thing.

 

[HoverBoarder]

I hope Russian weapons get in, and if boots on the ground are needed to prevent total anarchy, I hope those arrive too.

...
I'm for Assad going, if the people (a majority, not the few with guns) want. But strangely, I know this is weird, I don't think it's quite worth a quarter-million dead, Islamist mystery gangs chopping off hands and heads, whole Alawite villages burned to the ground, the women raped and children sterilized, other things I fear will happen if the Libya scenario were repeated in Syria. They want a purified, extremist, disciplined Sunni wedge from which to attack Iran next. That might be awesome to you guys too, but sucky for Syrians.

Well that is the heart of the disagreement. Whether more Russian weapons, and whether encouraging the Assad regime to engage in more attacks on Syrians will make anything better.

I would say no, but you seem to be saying otherwise.

This conflict started primarily because the Assad regime engaged in repeated violent attacks on demonstrators and villages; and the rebel uprising that emerged as a response to those attacks is not going to be placated or subdued by simply increasing the violence of the Assad regime.

Given your supportive posts for the Syrian regime, and dismal of any negative actions by them, I can take it as a pretty fair guess that by "boots on the ground," you are not talking about a peacekeeping force, or a force that would be focused on protecting civilians. More likely you are talking about something akin to the mercenary force that Gaddafi brought in to fight the Libyans in his own country.


Beyond the whole moral aspect of actively supporting dictators who torture and kill massive numbers of their own civilians, supplying more weapons to those dictators and ignoring the large numbers of atrocities that they have perpetrated on their people is not helping the people of those countries.

I am not saying that we should give the Free Syrian Army a pass on any atrocities that they commit, but if you were genuinely interested in the welfare of the people in these countries, you have to have a consistent policy against mass civilian killings rather than giving a free pass to one side in order to fit your own bias.

 

[DC]

I think you might be getting a little too much enjoyment out of this whole Syrian massacre thing.

yeah a scary new side i see from her. disgusting

 

[Caustic Logic]

My point is. You are picking holes in little parts of an overall narrative. You are looking at the trees but not the woods. And because a tree doesnt come up smelling of roses you are dismissing (or ignoring) everything else. It's a truther trick.

I don't slavishly believe the mass media on this. I certainly do not believe everything you post. This is based on your Libya stuff and your MO. An awful lot of what you think is fact based is a awful lot of speculation on your part yet you fail to see it.

Sometimes I can do that, as I just acknowledged. But only a bit, not an awful lot. Isn't a forest made of trees? No comment on the species analysis for the Sari tree and the Ali tree? Specific examples ignored, broad patterns warranting blanket dismissal (you think) highlighted. That's a forest seen with no informed idea what kind of trees are in it.

Now let's examine your less imaginative view:

What I do know is that there are thousands being killed by Assad and his regime. [...]In the end, for me, it's not about gotchas and who did what. It's about looking into what can be done and not jumping to conclusions about what will be done. [about the ones who are doing things] I don't see evil motives behind everything everybody ever does.

No, just the regime crimes, according to activists who wind up in possession of the bodies as they're still bleeding. Got it. No jumping to conclusions there. Thanks, but I don't think you're going to be any help here.

 

[Caustic Logic]

I think you might be getting a little too much enjoyment out of this whole Syrian massacre thing.

Do you believe the Shabiha babysit soldiers to keep them from defecting? It's a pretty stupid claim.

yeah a scary new side i see from her. disgusting

That she found it funny stupid is "disgusting?" Have you ever dealt with horrible info in an investigative sense? When you get really involved in the grimness for periods, you find you still need to laugh. Ask a mortician about it sometime.

As for the healthiness of this dwelling, you're welcome. Someone's got to do it or we'll have nothing but what the activists say.

Well that is the heart of the disagreement. Whether more Russian weapons, and whether encouraging the Assad regime to engage in more attacks on Syrians will make anything better.

I would say no, but you seem to be saying otherwise.

I disagree on who the threat is, based on my examination of individual "trees" and on their clustered growth patterns, etc. This should be prettyclear from almost all I write, so not sure how you missed that. I have no doubt the government has been unnecessarily harsh in spots, and is attacking people who are in cities. But they are only some, few, violent, sectarian, Salafist, deceptive, foreign-backed, foreign-armed, foreign-fighter-staffed people of Syria co-opted into a sick takeover tool for NATO and the Saudis. Yeah, no problem seeing them shut down. I predict it - in addition to other changes - would end the violence. Assad should step down - after all that, not before to reward it.

This conflict started primarily because the Assad regime engaged in repeated violent attacks on demonstrators and villages; and the rebel uprising that emerged as a response to those attacks is not going to be placated or subdued by simply increasing the violence of the Assad regime.

Why not? Only getting rubber bullets?

Given your supportive posts for the Syrian regime, and dismal of any negative actions by them, I can take it as a pretty fair guess that by "boots on the ground," you are not talking about a peacekeeping force, or a force that would be focused on protecting civilians.

The majority of civilians are government supporters or neutral. These kinds of people keep getting killed by the rebels, often including the kids, often with Islamo-nihilist cruelty, and I'd like to see that stop.

I gather the initial torture and abuse in Daraa last March at least was unwarranted. I criticize that, and anything else that truly deserves it from the gov. side. I don't consider them death penalty crimes for the gov. because so many others will die with them (Christians to Beirut, Alawites to the grave!)

More likely you are talking about something akin to the mercenary force that Gaddafi brought in to fight the Libyans in his own country.

Lol. African migrants who agreed to volunteer at the end and mostly just got slaughtered by NATO mercenary bombing, Qatari mercenaries, Libyan rebels, and Al Qaeda. Okay, lety's not argue this... I advocate both sides getting outside help in Syria, if the truly Syrian side needs help too. I fear they might and shouldn't risk it by not brining people in soon.

Beyond the whole moral aspect of actively supporting dictators who torture and kill massive numbers of their own civilians,

is the info problem of how you know that. Activists say + media repeats = true?

supplying more weapons to those dictators and ignoring the large numbers of atrocities that they have perpetrated on their people is not helping the people of those countries.

Unless...

I am not saying that we should give the Free Syrian Army a pass on any atrocities that they commit,

But if they win and take over and get all their revenge on the people they blamed for those atrocities, well, then they will. You don't have to favor it.

but if you were genuinely interested in the welfare of the people in these countries, you have to have a consistent policy against mass civilian killings rather than giving a free pass to one side in order to fit your own bias.

Agreed. We don't KNOW which of us is right. But we've both just got it all figured out, huh?

 

[JihadJane]

Beyond the whole moral aspect of actively supporting dictators who torture and kill massive numbers of their own civilians, supplying more weapons to those dictators and ignoring the large numbers of atrocities that they have perpetrated on their people is not helping the people of those countries.

Which dictators geopolitical players support or liquidate has nothing to do with morals or how many civilians they torture and kill.

The US, remember, was happy to make use of Syria's torturers.

 

[DC]

That she found it funny stupid is "disgusting?" Have you ever dealt with horrible info in an investigative sense? When you get really involved in the grimness for periods, you find you still need to laugh. Ask a mortician about it sometime.

CSI: Internet.