Houla Massacre, Syria: What If?

CSI: Internet. :rolleyes:


As everybody else, you are invited to provide constructive criticism of our research, point out bias and/or add information we might have missed. So far nobody has even spent a single sentence on our small but determined effort at objectivity. I wonder why that is (kidding here).
 
Okay, for discussion purposes (CE, anyone else) let's look at the Syrian government version of the Tremseh situation. They say the militants, about 250-300, had entered the city some time before the events (about 20 days), set up an explosives manufacturing plant, bringing numerous Libyans, a Turkish officer, plenty machine guns, grenades, and RPGs, no tanks mentioned.

Seven captives make their claims, published by SANA. They're under captivity, but show no obvious signs of torture (some types you can't see, of course)

Four here, July 14
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...p://www.sana.sy/eng/337/2012/07/14/431292.htm
More details on the overall rebel operation, including that the attack was first to impose a "state of strike," just shut the city down.

Three more, July 15
http://www.sana.sy/eng/337/2012/07/15/431458.htm

The latter has the story I alluded to already regarding an olive grove. I'm not certain this is supposed to be part of the events of the 12th or some previous event during the activists' stay in al-Tremseh. So I'll start with it:
For his part, terrorist Zaher al-Tayeh said that he took part in the abduction of a man from al-Safsafiye village along with two others, hijacking the man's car and then interrogating him in an olive field before slitting his throat with a knife.

Al-Tayeh also confessed to abducting two others; one from al-Safsafiye and the other from the village of Khneizir, saying that they demanded a ransom of SYP 400,000 for the first one and 200,000 for the second, but their demands weren't met so one of the abductors, a man killed Hussein Dabbas, slit the victims' throats as al-Tayeh watched.

Actually, it seems perhaps unconnected to the day's events. His role in that remains unclear.
Two terrorists from the town of al-Treimseh in Hama countryside confessed to taking part in a series of murders and acts of terrorism before the army entered the town, while a third terrorist admitted to participating in abducting citizens to demand ransom and killing them afterwards.

The two locals are brothers, who confirm a sort of odd story of being pressed into joining the rebel terrorists, a group led by Saleh al-Saba'awi, offering little of value as they witnessed others entering homes and killing people on 'revenge' missions.
Al-Mahmoud said that he and his brother accompanied al-Saba'awi and six other men attacked two houses, with him breaking one of the houses' doors and shooting at the roof, noting that he stayed outside with his brother upon al-Saba'awi's orders while the rest entered the house and shot everyone inside, saying that he only saw a man and a woman but that there were more people inside.

He went on to say that they broke into the second house, with him staying outside like the first time and firing at the house, and the rest of the group entered the house and killed anyone inside.
Ahmad confirmed all that, adding that they were told the victims were military men, "when in truth there were only civilian men and women who were shot dead by the terrorists."

I can see how there are possible problems with all that, but I can also see how it could be true.
I think another source give further details on how the brothers' recruitment happened, but it doesn't seem to be in this piece.
 
As everybody else, you are invited to provide constructive criticism of our research, point out bias and/or add information we might have missed.

OK. Most of your junk research comes from the propaganda agencies of the terror state doing the killing, along with their sponsors and allies.

There's a start.
 
I can see how there are possible problems with all that, but I can also see how it could be true.
I think another source give further details on how the brothers' recruitment happened, but it doesn't seem to be in this piece.


That's in the video whose transcript I summarized. I didn't touch the SANA articles, just their raw statements.

Well, it could be theater of course, but what they say is consistent, it's plausible that those are villagers and not foreign fighters (seen the two of them in handcuffs in the Russian report?), and most important: unlike in Houla, there is no consistent "official" narrative, it all fell apart in the first days and everybody on the "opposition" side was telling different stories, from a few civilians among "rebel" casualties to the Al-Arabiya approved huge "massacre". It also fits with what we know about the Army offensive against "terrorist" nests in the last weeks. So i'd say likely true.
 
Sometimes I can do that, as I just acknowledged. But only a bit, not an awful lot. Isn't a forest made of trees? No comment on the species analysis for the Sari tree and the Ali tree? Specific examples ignored, broad patterns warranting blanket dismissal (you think) highlighted. That's a forest seen with no informed idea what kind of trees are in it.

Now let's examine your less imaginative view:


No, just the regime crimes, according to activists who wind up in possession of the bodies as they're still bleeding. Got it. No jumping to conclusions there. Thanks, but I don't think you're going to be any help here.

Sneaky snipping of quotes. Another truther trick.

Carry on.
 
Sneaky snipping of quotes. Another truther trick.

Carry on.

Sorry, did I make up that you claim to "buy nothing" and don't "slavishly believe the media," but yet feel you "know" that "there are thousands being killed by Assad and his regime." ? Feel free to explain that disconnect in your own words, I'm not up to guessing. Techincally, I don'teven contest that. In addition to however many the opposition has killed, and however many FSA-type fighters killed are foreigners, I believe "thousands" of Syrian people killed by the government in 17 months is correct and comfortably vague. I'd say about 7-10 thousand.

You speak of trees and forests, and some "everything else" I'm ignoring. Regarding Ali Al-Sayed, if you ever looked at that, what relevant sources am I missing? Three publicized interviews, all covered, gross inconsistencies between them noted. That's a sickly tree and you don't contest it. Most people discussiing him have called on only one of the sources and repeated it as fact, even though the other interviews contradict some key parts of it. One up for my approach.

When Sari Saoud was shot dead, what sources did I miss there? it was opposition people right there with the truck to steal his body and make videos with it, blaming Assad, when, again, they were the ones there and mobile and not being shot as they took that advantage someone handed them.

I have two cases there where the activists apparently lied to you, quite possibly after killing 108 and 20 Syrian people, respectively, and you'd be wise not to buy their stories there.

How much of the "everything else" can you slap me back with? I hunger for an example to consider and see if you can make even one specific hit, or what.
 
After the grand slam the opposition managed yesterday,I have a feeling that Dear Leader Assad days are numbered.
Maybe his buddy Hugo CHavex will offer him sanctuary....
 
But Assad is beloved by all the people of Syria! How could this happen?!

Was it a popular uprising of the masses, or well-planned FSA bomb attack that killed the defense chiefs? Confusing the power of explosives with the will of the people is a common error these days.

From this ridicule, it seems you do have an opinion that those who'd "play the numbers game" are in fact wrong. On what evidence have you made that decision? Is it any better than citing a bomb attack by the well-armed rebel minority we all know exists?
 
After the grand slam the opposition managed yesterday,I have a feeling that Dear Leader Assad days are numbered.
Maybe his buddy Hugo CHavex will offer him sanctuary....

Keep the Chex mix handy. How many cities do they solidly hold? The Libyans needed to leapfrog through conquered cities from Misrata and Zintan before hitting the capitol, and that was with NATO help in the air, lots of it. Unless they have some serious tricks up their sleeves, I'm not so sure this is the beginning of the end. For the government.
 
By the magic of a straw-man argument!

Nah, you just don't get that it's not about arguments, facts, morality, or anything but a chance to gloat that 'we gonna git that diktater real soon now.' It's supposed to trump all the "apologist" blathering with details in it.
 
:bike:

BTW< Mods, posts 548 to this one and the bike inclusive, are cross-posted, and clearly fit best with the silly "discussion" in the other Syria thread. If possible, they should be dropped over there.
 
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From this ridicule, it seems you do have an opinion that those who'd "play the numbers game" are in fact wrong. On what evidence have you made that decision? Is it any better than citing a bomb attack by the well-armed rebel minority we all know exists?

He runs a police state. His "admirers" are made up of a small group of people made rich by his regime, another small group that expects to be able to use the regime to further their own ends, and then a much larger group of people who will always tell foreigners and reporters they love Assad because telling the truth could lead to jail or death.
 
Seems like the poor Syrians will exchange one Satrap for another with a different master. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
 
Sorry, did I make up that you claim to "buy nothing" and don't "slavishly believe the media," but yet feel you "know" that "there are thousands being killed by Assad and his regime." ? Feel free to explain that disconnect in your own words, I'm not up to guessing. Techincally, I don'teven contest that. In addition to however many the opposition has killed, and however many FSA-type fighters killed are foreigners, I believe "thousands" of Syrian people killed by the government in 17 months is correct and comfortably vague. I'd say about 7-10 thousand.

You speak of trees and forests, and some "everything else" I'm ignoring. Regarding Ali Al-Sayed, if you ever looked at that, what relevant sources am I missing? Three publicized interviews, all covered, gross inconsistencies between them noted. That's a sickly tree and you don't contest it. Most people discussiing him have called on only one of the sources and repeated it as fact, even though the other interviews contradict some key parts of it. One up for my approach.

When Sari Saoud was shot dead, what sources did I miss there? it was opposition people right there with the truck to steal his body and make videos with it, blaming Assad, when, again, they were the ones there and mobile and not being shot as they took that advantage someone handed them.

I have two cases there where the activists apparently lied to you, quite possibly after killing 108 and 20 Syrian people, respectively, and you'd be wise not to buy their stories there.

How much of the "everything else" can you slap me back with? I hunger for an example to consider and see if you can make even one specific hit, or what.

Nobody lied to me. Stop being foolish. I know what I see. People being killed by all sides. I even mentioned there was undesirables on the rebel side. What did you do? Snipped it out.

Blinkers man, blinkers.
 

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