Houla Massacre, Syria: What If?

[Caustic Logic]

Easier formatting here. The death toll is shifting, and this (part? version?) sounds different:

Most of the people killed in the Treimsa violence in central Syria were rebel fighters, an activist said on Friday, adding the bloodbath followed a Free Syrian Army attack on an army convoy.

"At this stage, though we do not yet have the final count, the number of civilians killed by shelling is not more than seven," Jaafar, an activist at the anti-regime Sham News Network, told AFP. "The rest were members of the [rebel] Free Syrian Army."
[...]
Separately, the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reported that "dozens of rebel fighters" were among those killed.

http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=418732

 

[Childlike Empress]

Yeah, just added a video released by the SOHR which shows maybe twenty dead men, in fighting age. Mildly graphic content.

 

[Childlike Empress]

(Saudi mouthpiece) Al-Arabiya has it backwards concerning the convoy:

Activists said that helicopters have targeted the trucks carrying the humanitarian aid on their way to al-Tremsa, while the government troops shelled the village using tanks and missiles.

"Humanitarian aid", hear hear. Also inflated victim numbers and rejoicing that the regime is "desperate" and therefore commits massacres. Seems to look more and more like their hired thugs get desperate and this was nothing that could be described as a "massacre of civilians". But as long as the media report it as such ... and look at that cute rebel girl.

 

[Caustic Logic]

And this sounds different again:

Rebel leader Abu Mohamad, chief of a group based further to the north, said early today that the attack using helicopters, tanks and multiple rocket-launchers had killed more than 200 people in the village.

Abu Mohamad said he had been in phone contact with a resident of Treimsa who told him that government forces were on hills a few kilometres outside the town.

The army and the Shabiha, pro-regime militia who are said to accompany troops to make sure they do not desert, started to bombard Treimsa yesterday, Abu Mohamad said.

Hama-based activist who identified himself as Abu Ghazi said via Skype that the bombardment was “followed by clashes with the (rebel) Free Syrian Army, but the FSA does not have a big presence in Treimsa and could not fight long.”

“The number of martyrs is very high partly because the army shelled a mosque where scores of people had taken shelter, to treat the wounded and hide from the bombs,” Abu Ghazi said.

“But it is obvious that the regime knows no limits. The mosque was shelled, it collapsed, and that killed the people in it.”

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/in-...-100-people-dead/story-fn7ycml4-1226425059737

A good rule of thumb with these things is the version where the regime targets a mosque is the one you should always believe. Mosques and babies, always.

Thankfully no word on babies here, yet. It might've only sounded exactly like Houla...

 

[Childlike Empress]

The army and the Shabiha, pro-regime militia who are said to accompany troops to make sure they do not desert

Lol. Anybody can imagine how that works? These Shabiha guys are real devils, forcing the poor army to massacre civilians. Assad, you thug!!!!1

 

[Childlike Empress]

The Guardian has a live update page. An SNC goon - they recently were in Moscow and told the Russians that they need to help because this is like 1989 ... how stupid can you get? - assures us:

The Tremseh massacre is well documented and not being exaggerated by activists, Saleh insisted. He pointed out that the initial deathtoll came down from 250 to 200 because of a desire to record the casualties accurately.

Meanwhile some "activists" have published a list with 103 names of alleged victims. The SNC goon asked after the connection between UNSC meetings and massacres:

From the Assad regime's perspective it is very clear that any political or international solution at this point will mean the end of the Assad regime. I think the Assad regime, in committing all these massacres, is really talking to [its] shabiha, to his forces on the ground. I think these massacres unfortunately increase the morale of the Assad gangs. It is the same thing when they shot down the Turkish airplane.

 

[angrysoba]

UN monitors apparently confirming the use of helicopters and tanks:

The head of the UN monitoring mission in Syria has said that helicopters and tanks were used to shell a town in the centre of the country before a massacre that is believed to have killed more than 140 people on Thursday.

General Robert Mood, who has led the UN presence in Syria since April, said his members were ready to enter the town of Tremseh if a truce there took hold. He said monitors stationed in the area had personally verified that heavy weapons were directed against Tremseh on Thursday.

Late on Friday the UN said observers had been unable to contact the local military commander responsible for the area near Tremseh and its members had been refused access. It claimed the Syrian air force "continued to attack populated urban areas on a large scale" and said its observers had logged more than 100 explosions in an "ongoing military operation".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/13/syria-helicopters-tanks-tremseh

 

[Caustic Logic]

UN monitors apparently confirming the use of helicopters and tanks:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/13/syria-helicopters-tanks-tremseh

Indeed, that's what's being reported. I have two main questions about that:

#1 - how they confirmed it. They haven't inspected yet, only "ready" to go there. (video?)
#2 - if such weapons were used by Syrian security forces, against whom?

In fact this "massacre" might be the sum total of different things. There seems to be a bit of another Houla-type affair, but maybe the rebels were caught in the middle by that army/aid convoy. That would explain how the bulk of deaths were of them as they tried to flee. The house-by-house massacres were done by the "Shabiha," they say, after the rebel forces fled (as in Houla) but those shot crossing the fields were different - on motorcycles, likely scattered rebels, and hence the gunships chased them down. Can anyone think of a better way?

A big number of the young men were killed in the field when they were trying to escape the army attack. Helicopters targeted them by heavy machine guns while they were driving their motorcycles - while they were fleeing the village.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/13/syria-hama-massacre-live#block-27

The confusing part - the other Guardian report said:

Syrian government troops and a pro-regime militia have killed more than 200 people, mostly civilians, in a village near the city of Hama, opposition activists reported in the early hours of Friday morning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/13/syria-hama-massacre-activists
While other activists say

Most of the people killed in the Treimsa violence in central Syria were rebel fighters, an activist said on Friday, adding the bloodbath followed a Free Syrian Army attack on an army convoy.

http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArticleDetails.aspx?ID=418732

So were they fighters or civilians? Oh yeah, the fighters/terrorists on the one side are civilians. So is it that simple? Rebels claiming a battlefield defeat as a massacre of innocents?

 

[DC]

i think it doesn't mtter who fights who for what reasons, there should be an invasion of forces that end the bloodbaths and make sure there will be elections soon.

 

[Caustic Logic]

i think it doesn't mtter who fights who for what reasons, there should be an invasion of forces that end the bloodbaths and make sure there will be elections soon.

What a strange-sounding position. It doesn't matter who's killing whom? We just need an invasion (by whom?) to end the bloodshed (by stopping whom?) and have another election on top of the one the SNC types chose to sit out back on May 7?

Okay Bashar wasn't on the table there, it was for parliament - most diverse batch ever, plenty of opposition groups previously banned now working together. But there'd be a vote for president .... with Bashar running? Or dead/awaiting trial, guilty of being blamed in activist reports? Do we let the people choose, or narrow the choices for them like we did in Libya? How many soldiers will be killed in the process defending their government? How widely and how long will the purges go on? Etc?

I don'tcarehow dead-set people are on eliminating another hated "tyrant," the course of respecting a nation's integrity and turning back from the brinkis the right way. Instead, we're pushing for a cathartic total change, flipping the bus upside down and letting the blood fly where it may, that makes US (most of us) feel good, considering our pervasive conditioning...

 

[Childlike Empress]

Indeed, that's what's being reported. I have two main questions about that:

#1 - how they confirmed it. They haven't inspected yet, only "ready" to go there. (video?) [...]

So is it that simple? Rebels claiming a battlefield defeat as a massacre of innocents?

Their mission is still suspended and they are reported to sit in a hotel in Damascus. Latest news item on documents.sy says that just now "UN Observers set off from Damascus for Treimseh village in Hama Countryside". I'd have to read their first-hand statements, but what angrysoba quoted second hand speaks of "populated urban areas". There have been reports the last days that the Army is rooting out terrorist strongholds along the urban axis Homs-Rastan-Hama.

I suspect what we have here is a group fleeing the urban areas to the countryside, taking over this small village, more or less terrorize the villagers, those call the army and the "rebels" get defeated. The government on the one hand and Al-Arabiya on the other hand speaking of massacres might be both agenda driven, and the truth is more like those seven civilians killed in the crossfire while the rest were clashes between people in arms.

Seems totally blown out of proportion, which of course doesn't stop the Wicked Witch of the West from being once again outraged over "indisputable evidence that the regime deliberately murdered innocent civilians".

 

[DC]

What a strange-sounding position. It doesn't matter who's killing whom? We just need an invasion (by whom?) to end the bloodshed (by stopping whom?) and have another election on top of the one the SNC types chose to sit out back on May 7?

Okay Bashar wasn't on the table there, it was for parliament - most diverse batch ever, plenty of opposition groups previously banned now working together. But there'd be a vote for president .... with Bashar running? Or dead/awaiting trial, guilty of being blamed in activist reports? Do we let the people choose, or narrow the choices for them like we did in Libya? How many soldiers will be killed in the process defending their government? How widely and how long will the purges go on? Etc?

I don'tcarehow dead-set people are on eliminating another hated "tyrant," the course of respecting a nation's integrity and turning back from the brinkis the right way. Instead, we're pushing for a cathartic total change, flipping the bus upside down and letting the blood fly where it may, that makes US (most of us) feel good, considering our pervasive conditioning...

obviously the Syrian government is not able to handle the situation. So i would like to see foreign forces going in and prevent further bloodbaths and organize elections so the people of Syria can get back the authority asap.

 

[funk de fino]

Yes indeed. The usual suspects want to sit here picking holes in snippets of the reports coming in while hundreds die. Must feel sooooo important and smug.

Humanitarians indeed!

 

[Virus]

Yes indeed. The usual suspects want to sit here picking holes in snippets of the reports coming in while hundreds die. Must feel sooooo important and smug.

Humanitarians indeed!

The usual suspects praise Gaddafi as a democrat. That indicates how seriously their opinion should be taken.

 

[Caustic Logic]

obviously the Syrian government is not able to handle the situation. So i would like to see foreign forces going in and prevent further bloodbaths and organize elections so the people of Syria can get back the authority asap.

That I can agree with partly. Remember they've been calling this a real war and trying for real, screw "world opinion," for just a few weeks now. I think this last "massacre" where most of the dead were rebel fighters, shows they're getting there. I do still fear they can't handle it (which is supposed to be the outcome) if the other side gets any stronger, gets an Air Force etc. I hope Russian weapons get in, and if boots on the ground are needed to prevent total anarchy, I hope those arrive too.

Yes indeed. The usual suspects want to sit here picking holes in snippets of the reports coming in while hundreds die. Must feel sooooo important and smug.

Humanitarians indeed!

I know. I mean, it's so obvious what's going on, who benefits from these shocking massacres just before meetings on what to do about Syria. When everything is blamed on the government, why the hell would they? But with a few silly words from activists whose allies are delivering the crimes, people are all set to ignore the other witnesses and logic and empower the criminals to better punish the victims. With blades and cruelty, if past patterns hold. That's so NOT humanitarian.

Virus: I have no respect for your drive-by criticism. You imagine I "know" you're right and a quick shaming will shoot me right in the heart. Wrong. There are specifics being dealt with here and you, among some others, seem to be learning nothing. If you had to live in Syria under the random-striking shadow of these rule-by-terror gangs, hoping the government can protect you but realizing the world has forbidden that and wants the gangs to win, I'm quite sure you'd feel different. But you got your comfy chair in Australia where you can apologize for these scum by keeping your eye only on the hated dictator, ignoring all the stuff on the sides where the people live.

I'm for Assad going, if the people (a majority, not the few with guns) want. But strangely, I know this is weird, I don't think it's quite worth a quarter-million dead, Islamist mystery gangs chopping off hands and heads, whole Alawite villages burned to the ground, the women raped and children sterilized, other things I fear will happen if the Libya scenario were repeated in Syria. They want a purified, extremist, disciplined Sunni wedge from which to attack Iran next. That might be awesome to you guys too, but sucky for Syrians.

 

[geni]

i think it doesn't mtter who fights who for what reasons, there should be an invasion of forces that end the bloodbaths and make sure there will be elections soon.

No one is going to invade Syria. Far too messy. Okey yes technicaly if the war spread into Turkey they might do something but Turkey is strong enough to prevent that.

 

[geni]

Yes indeed. The usual suspects want to sit here picking holes in snippets of the reports coming in while hundreds die. Must feel sooooo important and smug.

Humanitarians indeed!

Well there isn't going to be any meaningful intervention so taking it seriously probably isn't a good idea. Picking apart the propaganda probably fills time between waiting for one side or the other to score a particularly convincing massacre.

 

[JihadJane]

'After U.S. Uproar, Another Syrian “Civilian Massacre” Story Falls Apart'

(New American)


***Despite hysterical reporting and wild statements by political leaders, however, even “opposition activists” were conceding early on that most of the dead were actually armed combatants who had staged attacks on the regime’s military forces. More recent reports, even those based on anonymous “opposition activists,” also suggest that closer to 100 people had died. Almost all of the dead were military-aged men, too — a far cry from Clinton’s “over 200 men, women and children.”

"At this stage, though we do not yet have the final count, the number of civilians killed by shelling is not more than seven," an anti-Assad “activist” known as “Jaafar” with the Sham News Network (SNN) told the AFP press agency. "The rest were members of the [Western-backed] Free Syrian Army.” How could Clinton and the establishment press have messed up the story so badly, again?

One problem, according to analysts, is that the Free Syrian Army (FSA) is consistently discussed using deceptive terminology. “From the U.S. State Department and outward through its tentacles across the corporate media, the so-called ‘Free Syrian Army’ is continuously referred to interchangeably as ‘civilians’ and ‘activists,’” noted analyst Tony Cartalucci, who has followed the conflict closely. “In reality they are heavily armed, foreign-backed, and include amongst their ranks a sizable proportion of foreign fighters — betraying the very name Free ‘Syrian’ Army.” ***

 

[geni]

"At this stage, though we do not yet have the final count, the number of civilians killed by shelling is not more than seven," an anti-Assad “activist” known as “Jaafar” with the Sham News Network (SNN)

Only 7? Do you think the syrians will get their money back? As a general rule unless you are using DIME you would expect more than 7 casulties if you hit a village with worthwhile shells. Suggests the Syrians were sold sub par shells.

told the AFP press agency.

AFP? Why would the french goverment be interested?

The rest were members of the [Western-backed] Free Syrian Army.” How could Clinton and the establishment press have messed up the story so badly, again?

No worthwhile sources on the ground mostly. The last time they sent journalists in it didn't end well.

“In reality they are heavily armed,

Doubtful. Not seen anything that isn't man portable yet. Mostly an RPG AK mix.

 

[Caustic Logic]

'After U.S. Uproar, Another Syrian “Civilian Massacre” Story Falls Apart'

(New American)


***Despite hysterical reporting and wild statements by political leaders, however, even “opposition activists” were conceding early on that most of the dead were actually armed combatants who had staged attacks on the regime’s military forces. More recent reports, even those based on anonymous “opposition activists,” also suggest that closer to 100 people had died. Almost all of the dead were military-aged men, too — a far cry from Clinton’s “over 200 men, women and children.”

"At this stage, though we do not yet have the final count, the number of civilians killed by shelling is not more than seven," an anti-Assad “activist” known as “Jaafar” with the Sham News Network (SNN) told the AFP press agency. ...

That's the same sources who spoke to AFP/Now Lebanon, mentioned earlier. An interesting set of reports that wind up matching more clues than anything else, but still not maybe the whole truth. If it wasn't for the SOHR agreeing, I'd wonder what kind of opposition this SNN represents...

Mrs. Clinton thought this was another Houla-style massacre but bigger, and really wanted it to be. It does seem it started out that way, according to the local who called in his account quoted by SANA:

Abo Arif al-Khalid, an eye witness from the targeted village, stated in a phone call to Syrian TV, that the village of al-Treimseh lived a nightmare when armed terrorist groups attacked it and opened random fire on its inhabitants and houses, killing more than 50 persons, and exploding houses, among which the house of his cousin. A woman and her child were killed by the terrorists before the eyes of all the people there, added Abo Arif al-Khalid, regretting the absence of the Syrian Army or security personnel from the village. Had the Army or security personnel existed in the village, the terrorists wouldn't have been able to overrun the village and perpetrate their massacres, said Abo Arif al-Khalid with a crying voice.

http://www.sana.sy/eng/337/2012/07/13/431204.htm

But this time the army came and interrupted it, hence an attack on a convoy, and heavy losses by scattered rebels, and the less horrific than usual massacre with less women, children, and other non-combatants killed.

In fact, was 200 the size the rebels had decided the massacre would be, and even in defeat they couldn't let the number go? A weird thought... Clinton et al. seem inclined to stick to the original script as well.