Houla Massacre, Syria: What If?

[Virus]

thats it? we do not know if they stand for democracy for example?

So if they don't stand for democracy, to your stringent standards they should be killed by an enemy regime?

 

[DC]

So if they don't stand for democracy, to your stringent standards they should be killed by an enemy regime?

why should we help someone if they just want to take over the power and not give the power to the people? i want the people of Syria to have democracy and self determination. I sure do agree that Assad should be stopped asap, but just giving out weapons and money to some unknown group wich i do not know what they stand for? no, that went wrong in the past, i don't think we should repeat such failed ideas.

 

[JihadJane]

thats it? we do not know if they stand for democracy for example?

Don't complicate matters. When our former friend becomes our enemy then our former enemy becomes our friend because our former enemy is now against our former friend who is now our enemy.

 

[DC]

Don't complicate matters. When our former friend becomes our enemy then our former enemy becomes our friend because our former enemy is now against our former friend who is now our enemy.

yeah you would never support anyone simply because they are anti imperialists

 

[Childlike Empress]

Hi, I support the Syrian opposition and you should too. They're not all Al Qaeda!

So do I. I support genuine peoples struggle for freedom everywhere. And I support the right of peoples to determine their own faith. What I don't support is attacking countries based on lies for geopolitical reasons. Virus gave a hint above that for him this is about the enemies of Israel first and that's why he's willing to accept the lies about what happens in Syria. The road to Teheran goes through Damascus, the Syrian people are only pawns in this game.

What you dug up is interesting. The author claims in the comments that "HRW is not simply repeating opposition claims." Don't know if that is true. The report linked there has some interesting details.

[...] Residents and survivors described to Human Rights Watch how the attack on Houla unfolded. At midday on May 25 protesters gathered in Taldou, Houla’s largest town. According to a witness, at around 2 p.m., soldiers from an army checkpoint opened fire to disperse nearby protesters but he did not know whether anyone was injured or killed at that moment. An opposition activist from Houla told Human Rights Watch that armed members of the opposition subsequently attacked the checkpoint from which the army had fired, and that the Syrian army responded by intensely shelling various neighborhoods in Houla. [...]

That's the very beginning of the incident. According to the ANNA witness, 25 people at the checkpoint were attacked first and their bodies presented to the UN observers as protesters killed by the army. So we have disagreement from the very start.

Also interesting that they claim the Abdul Razak survivors sought protection from the FSA after the massacre. Because this area was under the control of the FSA to begin with, except for the checkpoints.

And if that family was Sunni, the question is why they were specifically targetted in a 90% Sunni town, while their neighbours were not. One would expect a much more random list of victims in a case of our Shabiha muscle men simply going on a rampage in a "rebel" town, wouldn't one?

Some thoughts.

 

[Virus]

why should we help someone if they just want to take over the power and not give the power to the people? i want the people of Syria to have democracy and self determination. I sure do agree that Assad should be stopped asap, but just giving out weapons and money to some unknown group wich i do not know what they stand for? no, that went wrong in the past, i don't think we should repeat such failed ideas.

To smack Iran.

These "failed ideas" brought down the Soviet Union you know.

 

[JihadJane]

yeah you would never support anyone simply because they are anti imperialists

Correct, I wouldn't.

 

[DC]

To smack Iran.

These "failed ideas" brought down the Soviet Union you know.

so you are not really interestend in helping the people, you are intersted to use them to deal a blow to what you believe to be your enemy.

 

[Virus]

so you are not really interestend in helping the people, you are intersted to use them to deal a blow to what you believe to be your enemy.

False dilemma.

I don't believe Assad and Iran are enemies. They are enemies.

 

[DC]

False dilemma.

I don't believe Assad and Iran are enemies. They are enemies.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Another German journalist reports (translation from here) from his Syria visit. Alfred Hackensberger tried to get to Taldou but did not make it directly to the village. But he was in the monastery in Qara interviewing the Mother and the refugees she has there.

Same picture: Not Shabiha, but "rebels" from Al-Rastan attacking the checkpoints. Al-Sayed were government supporters, but nothing on Abdul Razaq and Shiites:

[...] “The fighting began around noon, when the rebels, coming from Ar-Rastan and Saan, attacked the checkpoints of the army around Hula,” says the man in his late thirties. The position at the entrance near the hospital was the first thing that was overrun.

The soldiers fled and the rebels went to the hospital and killed patients there. Why, he does not know it, and just as little why so many other people were killed. Then, several teams targeted went in selected houses and had started to shoot all of the inhabitants. “They did nothing to the neighbors”, says Jibril.

Of the two families which were killed, he knew the Sajid’s personal. “They were Sunni Muslims, like all of us”, he says. “They were killed by them because they have rejected to join the revolution.” They’ve even murdered a Member of Parliament, who insisted on his candidacy in the elections in early May and had refused the boycott of the FSA. ”

After the massacre, the rebels have brought all the dead bodies to the mosque”, said Jibril. On the question of whether the regime loyal, the Shabiha, have massacred the people, Jibril raised his head and snaps with the tongue, customary. “Exemplary nonsense”, he says.

Anyone who has seen Taldu, will have doubts about the reports, that several hundred soldiers and Assad-supporters were able to come to the village without any resistance.

Hula (al-Houla) is in rebel hands, since December 2011. Taldu lies in an open area where there is little opportunity to seek cover. The village is easy to defend with machine guns and bazookas. The Army would like to reclaim Taldu, but it has not been done.

Jibril says, “Of course, many people know what really happened in Hula”. But all fear for their lives. “Who’s there and now opens his mouth, can only replay the version of the rebels. Everything else is the certain death.”

 

[Captain.Sassy]

So far as I can tell, virus' position is : "I don't care if the rebel and newspaper accounts of events are false, Syria is bad so let's get 'em.". Its a consistent position, though many people would be hesitant to support war on false pretexts.

 

[Virus]

As far as I can tell, your position "I don't care if rebel accounts and true and the accounts of Assad's useful idiots are false, I'm going to support a fascist state that exported terrorism to all of its neighbours and uses it on its own people." It's a consistent position. Although many people would be hesitant to support the biggest state-sponsor of terrorism in the Arab world based on false pretexts.

 

[Caustic Logic]

As far as I can tell, your position "I don't care if rebel accounts and true and the accounts of Assad's useful idiots are false, I'm going to support a fascist state that exported terrorism to all of its neighbours and uses it on its own people." It's a consistent position. Although many people would be hesitant to support the biggest state-sponsor of terrorism in the Arab world based on false pretexts.

You can't tell very far, crusader.

 

[Captain.Sassy]

As far as I can tell, your position "I don't care if rebel accounts and true and the accounts of Assad's useful idiots are false, I'm going to support a fascist state that exported terrorism to all of its neighbours and uses it on its own people." It's a consistent position. Although many people would be hesitant to support the biggest state-sponsor of terrorism in the Arab world based on false pretexts.

Okay. Well, I've cited a number of sources and reports which male me doubt the rationale of the pro war narrative. Why don't you tell me which of these sources you think are Assad's water boys?

 

[Captain.Sassy]

Great, now Turkey (which earlier admitted its plane might have been in Syrian airspace) says its plane was in international waters. Regardless of which side of the line it was on, given the situation in Syria and turkeys support for the rebels, flying fighter planes right along the border seems reckless and possibly provocative.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Diplomacy overview from Asia Times. Turkey between a rock and a hard place. Clinton continues to provoke the Russians, now implying that the Syrians are too stupid to use advanced weapons so it had to be the Russians who downed that plane (not in the article). According to the article, the ship with the repaired old helicopter parts has resumed its journey and now flies the Russian standard, after Clinton's and Hague's lies about that were exposed. A powder keg.

 

[bigjelmapro]

Diplomacy overview from Asia Times. Turkey between a rock and a hard place. Clinton continues to provoke the Russians, now implying that the Syrians are too stupid to use advanced weapons so it had to be the Russians who downed that plane (not in the article). According to the article, the ship with the repaired old helicopter parts has resumed its journey and now flies the Russian standard, after Clinton's and Hague's lies about that were exposed. A powder keg.

Can't read? Bolding mine.

From the article:

...
The ship is apparently carrying up to 15 Mil Mi-25 helicopters that were repaired in Kaliningrad. The helicopters were originally bought by Assad's late father and predecessor Hafez al-Assad at the end of the 1980s. ...

Old attack helicopters, but still in active service in Russia. Mil Mi-24

Syria has made the accusation that Turkey has flown into its airspace for a while now, and that this case the Syrians apparently didn't know it was Turkish. Turkey says otherwise and supposedly has evidence to support its case.

Lest we forget, Syria shelled a refugee camp within Turkey a few months ago. This seems to be more of an offensive and flagrant attack than flying over one's sovereign territory and eventually being shot down over its territorial waters, wouldn't you say?

Syria shells towns despite ceasefire deadline

Or is that a lie to?

There's no question Syria has defensive capabilities since they were bought directly from Russia, including the s-300

What are these exposed lies you referred to above? And why do you present Syria as some sort of victim when the border tensions have already been high for months already?

 

[Childlike Empress]

Clinton claimed that Russia is delivering new helicopters to Syria as was all over the news. Turned out that they didn't sell them any helicopters since the fall of the Soviet Union.

 

[bigjelmapro]

If you're referring to the speech Clinton made at the Washington’s Brookings Institution on June 12th, here's the transcript (pdf). Here's the quote:

We have confronted the Russians about stopping their continued arms shipments to Syria. They have, from time to time, said that we shouldn’t worry; everything they’re shipping is unrelated to their actions internally. That’s patently untrue. And we are concerned about the latest information we have that there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria, which will escalate the conflict quite dramatically.

I've gone through about a dozen or so articles and even blogs quoting various articles about this attack helicopters accusation Clinton was quoted as saying (ie. Clinton accuses Russia of delivering attack helicopters to Syrian regime. Nowhere did I find the word 'new', and neither am I even considering trying to use that as a defense as if splitting hairs about this up-to-now non-existent quote of 'new helicopters' even means anything. The only term 'new' used in any of the article is referring to the shipment itself, not the contents as being new.

Where does obsessing about this term get you? Are you intentionally missing the big picture? And how does attack gunships like the Mi-24, still active in over a dozen armies worldwide, take away from the issue that such deliveries to al-Assad for use against the anti-government rebels/insurgents/etc. (whom are restricted to land), should be banned. Additionally, there's an active arms embargo being enforced and the ship should have been impounded and its contents seized, as the Cypriots did earlier this year:

Russia Ships Arms to Syria in Violation of Arms Embargoes

Make note of the Arms Trade Treaty (ATT) in that article. And the 'but but, the US is accused of sending weapons to the rebels' drivel defense does not take away from what the Russians are doing and have been doing for decades already.

Then again, I'm sure, as with the previous post here and numerous others, that you'll just handwave all this away and continue with some other half-baked argument. Prove me wrong.