Houla Massacre, Syria: What If?

[Childlike Empress]

This thread is about the Houla massacre. The article I've posted about the very recent events concerning the "big picture" of this crisis is one that does not paint Syria as a victim in this plane incident at all, as you would know if you'd read it with an inquiring mind instead of hastily jumping at it to find something to "debunk" me. It's written by an Indian career diplomat and describes the diplomatic tensions Clinton's allegations caused, among many other things. You read something into my posts which isn't there - Darth Rotor asked earlier about what happened to the ship, that's why I mentioned it in my brief comment.

 

[A'isha]

You're the one who mentioned Clinton's "lies" about the helicopter shipment in the same post were you provided the link to the Asia Times article, and were more than happy to expound on the specifics of those "lies" in a followup post.

And now that those "lies" turn out to be no such thing (when Clinton said "there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria", she was being completely accurate), now you want to try and change the subject and accuse bigjelmapro of essentially being off-topic in debunking the claims that you yourself brought up?

 

[JihadJane]

You're the one who mentioned Clinton's "lies" about the helicopter shipment in the same post were you provided the link to the Asia Times article, and were more than happy to expound on the specifics of those "lies" in a followup post.

And now that those "lies" turn out to be no such thing (when Clinton said "there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria", she was being completely accurate), now you want to try and change the subject and accuse bigjelmapro of essentially being off-topic in debunking the claims that you yourself brought up?

I like your concept of "completly accurate". You should consider a career in politics. Three refurbished helicopters! OMG. Time to launch World War Three!

***[Russian Foreign Minister] Lavrov defended the abortive delivery and lashed out at the West over the incident, saying that the weapons could not be used against civilians protesting Assad's rule and that the insurance company had no right to withdraw coverage.

"The ship was carrying air defense systems, which can be used only for repelling foreign aggression and not against peaceful demonstrators, and it was carrying three repaired helicopters," Lavrov told Ekho Mosvky radio.***

Russia confirms Syria-bound ship carried helicopters

 

[Caustic Logic]

Yeah, so there was a mix-up. Syria paid to have those choppers fixed, but they're not allowed to have them back, because they're not allowed put down a serious, very nasty uprising. They're supposed to surrender to it and oput themselves at its mercy, the West says.

(below, free form ideas I realize might be "crazy," so knock yourselves out saying so)

As for the Turkish jet, the Syrians say it was flying low, and I suspect that's right. On an implied attack profile. It was over Syrian land at one point, maybe when hit, maybe limping back over int'l waters before crashing. Would like to see the radar tracks. It was stupid to shoot it down, but too late now.If it was to attack, you should let it. Now they're guilty of aggression over some waters, can be painted as a threat to all air traffic with a whole new tentacle of insanity the world must stop. Next maybe a busload of kids driven high speed towards an army base might do it, if this doesn't.

But all of this is on-topic only to the extent there's no other active Syria thread. This is about the family killing attacks that look like rebel work blamed on the government. Maybe a standard shoot-down-NATO-intervention route is more merciful on Syria's families and can get the war started with less of them getting hacked down...

 

[Caustic Logic]

I like your concept of "completly accurate". You should consider a career in politics. Three refurbished helicopters! OMG. Time to launch World War Three!

***[Russian Foreign Minister] Lavrov defended the abortive delivery and lashed out at the West over the incident, saying that the weapons could not be used against civilians protesting Assad's rule and that the insurance company had no right to withdraw coverage.

"The ship was carrying air defense systems, which can be used only for repelling foreign aggression and not against peaceful demonstrators, and it was carrying three repaired helicopters," Lavrov told Ekho Mosvky radio.***

Russia confirms Syria-bound ship carried helicopters

Off-topic but good catch. Maybe the choppers were a distraction, the part that could hurt the poor people of the Free Syrian Army, so worth mentioning. Maybe the main target of that little trick was air defense stuff that could hamper NATO. The part not mentioned by Hillary is more than likely the real problem in her mind. That's how these people work.

 

[A'isha]

Russia confirms Syria-bound ship carried helicopters

So, Clinton said (and I quote) that "there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria", it appears that there, indeed, are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria, and even Russia itself acknowledges that there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria?

How is that not completely accurate, again?

 

[Childlike Empress]

You're the one who mentioned Clinton's "lies" about the helicopter shipment in the same post were you provided the link to the Asia Times article, and were more than happy to expound on the specifics of those "lies" in a followup post.

And now that those "lies" turn out to be no such thing (when Clinton said "there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria", she was being completely accurate), now you want to try and change the subject and accuse bigjelmapro of essentially being off-topic in debunking the claims that you yourself brought up?

How can already existing helicopters repaired under decades old contracts "escalate the conflict quite dramatically", mentioned in the same breath with "continued arms shipments"? Maybe my wording of "lies" was a bit strong, but only if you ignore the usual political lingo, the climate in which it was spoken and try to be very pedantic. It certainly came across like accusations of "new" helicopters to the Russians, and that is what the article describes.

 

[A'isha]

How can already existing helicopters repaired under decades old contracts "escalate the conflict quite dramatically",

Because while they were technically "already existing", if they were in Russia being repaired, they obviously weren't available to the Syrians for use in the conflict. But as soon as they're landed in Syria, they can be immediately pressed into service in the uprising (and if, as you claim, the rebels are stealing heavy equipment and vehicles from the Syrian Army, Assad's probably gonna need those choppers).

 

[Childlike Empress]

And that would "escalate the conflict dramatically"? Sorry, but i'm not interested in discussing this argument any further. Instead i'll post what Clinton said two paragraphs later in the PDF bigjelmapro posted:

So how we manage a political transition, assuming we could manage a political transition; how we provide reassurance and some level of protection to Christians, Druze, Alawites, Kurds, Sunni business leaders and the like; how we prevent a massive inflow of refugees across the Jordanian and Turkish borders; how we protect Lebanon from getting caught up in the sectarian divides that afflict them as well as Syria – if these questions had self-apparent and actualizing answers, I would certainly share them with you. But as things stand, this is our constant, painful analysis as to how we can push the Assad regime out – there’s no doubt it needs to go – but create a transition that gives at least some possible reassurance to those who fear what comes next.

So I think with that, I’ll end.

Regime change at any cost, no matter how detrimental the consequences are and no matter how obvious it is that we have no plan what to do about the predictable chaos caused by our actions. We'll just tell the complainers that all will turn out well, maybe they'll throw some flowers at us.

Too strongly worded?

 

[DC]

how much of an uprising can there be when he was elected with over 97% , he must be one of the most loved persons in the country, but then he needs atack helicopters to handle an uprising?

 

[Caustic Logic]

To all:it'sa bad sign that I've been typing Shabiha wrong for a month now (Shahiba) and no one pointed it out. Not a big deal, but indicative of something.

Interesting tidbit I just noticed in the Guardian's second piece where Ali is named, still aged wrong, and mentions the killers'"Alawite accent." Right after that:

Many of the wounded in Houla are still being treated in makeshift medical clinics. Among them are people whose families worked with regime security forces or the local police.

"They were targeted because they were linked to the regime," one of the nurses treating the wounded men said. "The Shabiha wanted to create the impression that other forces were responsible."

So it has been acknowledged at least once that the attacks hit people linked to the regime - but not belonging to minority sects - to make it a false-flag attack. The impression does exist, says a nurse, and the government investigation did find that fact and used it for just that argument. So we critics must all be useful idiots now for agreeing with this same fact the Shabiha planted for us, right?

 

[A'isha]

And that would "escalate the conflict dramatically"? Sorry, but i'm not interested in discussing this argument any further.

Of course you're not. That way you don't have to explain your statement that the Russian ship was merely carrying "repaired old helicopter parts", when even a news item you yourself posted is headlined "Russia confirms Syria-bound ship carried helicopters".

Regime change at any cost, no matter how detrimental the consequences are and no matter how obvious it is that we have no plan what to do about the predictable chaos caused by our actions.

You seem to have a lot of difficulty parsing Mrs. Clinton's statements. First you somehow read "there are attack helicopters on the way from Russia to Syria" as "Clinton claimed that Russia is delivering new helicopters to Syria".

Now you're reading Clinton's statement that Assad needs to go, but in a way that ensures as much as possible that there is no chaos and uncertainty in the aftermath (something that she says has no easy or straightforward solution), as her actually saying "Assad must be removed at any cost, chaos and uncertainty and consequences be damned!"

 

[Caustic Logic]

how much of an uprising can there be when he was elected with over 97% , he must be one of the most loved persons in the country, but then he needs atack helicopters to handle an uprising?

I'm not familiar with the election details, but whatever % was among those who participated, which is I would guess is still a good majority of Syrians. The freedom-loving pro-Democracy activists abstained, and urged all Syrians to abstain and pursue total change only at whatever cost.

So for those now well-armed and encouraged and riuled up people, they've chosen the bullet over the ballot, so to communicate with them you need bullets and more.

And the pro-democracy crowd (or rather shady allies, perhaps uninvited) reportedly punished certain families in Houla/Taldou for, among other things, participating in the elections and even having a member win a seat as speaker in the parliament. This was sworn in, as I've noted, the day before the massacre when speaker Al Mashlab Al Sayed's family was slaughtered. But his alleged daughter or perhaps niece swears the family wasn't "with the government" and that, plus being Sunni, is why they were targeted by the government...

So ... ???

 

[Caustic Logic]

For my part, Clinton didn't lie, but she did somehow give a false impression of new Russian arms sales, as a big thing that must be stopped, when instead it was repairs on three attack helicopters. And, apparently, an aspect of their air defense system, which might have been the real concern as the West prepares to bomb Syria.

How many machine guns, mortars, anti-tank or anti-aircraft missile systems have been shipped to the rebels with no complaints? How many tanks have they stolen and soldiers they stolen and erased or replaced like body-snatchers, with no protest?

Okay.

Houla massacre, and things like it. The Qubeir one is fair game, and there are several other strange instances of insane alleged brutality that suddenly makes sense if you consider the rebel side doing it.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Bumped the thread about the diplomatic stand-off to not pollute this narrow-focus thread with the "big picture" anymore.

Interesting allegations of the nurse, well spotted CL.

 

[Virus]

The sooner Assad retires from the killing business and takes an extended vacation in Cuba the better.

 

[Caustic Logic]

The sooner Assad retires from the killing business and takes an extended vacation in Cuba the better.

If Libya's any indication, they'll be "sending him to Cyprus" * along with many, many other people of Syria.

* (as noted earlier, a euphemism for execution)

 

[Virus]

He could avoid getting hung from a bridge or spending the rest of his life at the Hague by taking an early retirement. I doubt Iran would be very happy with that though. They'd rather more killing and more crimes for you to "investigate".

 

[Caustic Logic]

I also mentioned many, many other people of Syria being "sent to Cyprus" if the next "humanitarian war" comes to be. How many of them are gonna go to Cuba with him?

Anyway, I found a pretty fair article from FAIR that actually mentions the possibility the rebels did Houla.

That said, it is still not clear what is happening in Houla, which all the more reason U.S. media should not be repeating as fact stories that cannot be confirmed–and doubly so when those stories give aid to the case for a wider war.

And an interesting comment there by "Syrian Citizen," From Homs (not a witness), posted June 18. Some of the points made:

1) it was executions, not artillery that killed people, but we know that and "the witnesses" say that, so...

2)Can you explain why every time the UN or the International Security Council have a session about Syria and something like that happens ? is it me or this is just so strange ?

Mysterious alleged events prior to the massacre:

few days prior to these tragic events the Syrian army did had a brutal fight with the militia of the so-called "Syria Free Army" and what they did (The Syrian Arab Army) was evicting the civilian population from the location of the fight and after the fighting is over they returned to there homes few days later the militia members walks around the villages screaming through microphones that " the army and shabeha are coming to kill you and we can no longer protect you we are running away so should you" and the people believed that and ran after a while the came back to find the militia of the so-called "Syria Free Army" have broken and entered many houses and stole a lot .

So the next time, the people stolen from refuse to leave and were killed in their homes by the army/Shabiha?

On the Shabiha this guy doesn't blame:

Now the origin of the word Shabeha : Shabeha's single is shabeeh which is derived from the word shabah translation to English means "Ghost"
They are a group of smugglers used by the Syrian government in late 80s and early 90s during the economic siege on Syria to smuggle food and medicine and a lot of stuff we could not import because if the siege and when the siege was finally over the government arrested and placed them in prisons
nowadays this ward is used to describe unemployed and trouble making youth
as for the use in the recent events the term was first used by Al-Jazeera News Channel, and has been proven a lot that al-Jazeera News Channel lied and lying tones about the events in Syria,but I guess it means nothing to you, but I won't hurt to scream my voice out, someone might actually here

I'm sure food and medicine weren't the most sanctioned items these guys would be smuggling, but who knows?

 

[MaGZ]

Sorry, I just don't trust this crew to come up with the right answer. I find the U.N. and the countries involved to be far more trustworthy and reliable than this crew.

I've heard Obama and others in the media voice the same concerns you are voicing. And I know that the last thing Obama wants or needs is another military entanglement in which the U.S. does the heavy work and is left holding the bag, with Obama serving as the Bush-surrogate scapegoat and whipping boy. So I have little fear that we will be mindlessly rushed off to another war and occupation. I consider the level of war fear here to be irrational, misdirected, and not entirely real.

But of Romney is elected the US and the UK probably will attack Syria.