Houla Massacre, Syria: What If?

It's all someone's relatives...

Who if is the corollary of what if. Good question. There are only two sets of witnesses and allegations. When the Western media says "witnesses say it was the Shahiba" what they neglect in between is "some witnesses," "the ones we spoke to," "the ones activists tell us we should believe," "the ones we do believe."

The other witnesses - a good sized list by now - only get to speak to Syrian and Russian media, mostly, and nuns who sheltered them, and Rainer Hermann by some unusual turn. These say there was little or no shelling at all, and the satellite imagery supports that by showing no visible damage. They provide a more logical scenario. The rebel killers from Rastan and elsewhere would, unlike regime forces and allies, be positioned to benefit from the mass killing, aside from eliminating the victims who supported the gov. and set a bad example. The situation "improved" as soon as those families died, even before they had the new propaganda hammer by blaming the other side.

I'm looking now into how consistent each side is on the victim identifications. The side that happens to agree with the Syrian gov. is quite consistent on the family IDs and one being I guess the new speaker of the coalition parliament, Abdalmuti Al-Mashlab aka Mashlab Al-Sayed.

The rebel sources mention the same family (Myryam Sayed was a member and it was an anti-gov. family, she told NPR), with no parliament mentioned, few specifics, slightly different names, etc. Although a traitor uncle who seems to have ordered the killing, who is apparently supposed to be the same speaker, who then lied on TV blaming armed gangs who've been trying to derail elections and reforms so war remains the only hope for change.

For research, can anyone help me track down a good list in English of the victims as alleged by the opposition side? One of those observatories or free human rights good guy sources?
 
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Many of the "righty" sites are just as bad. There's just a ton of internet swampland out there, and a never ending supply of self indulgent fantasists desperately seeking confirmation for their pre-selected "truths".
 
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Sure. Take a stroll through globalresearch.ca or any indymedia site and randomly fact-check the first ten articles you see.

Similarly, I invite you to take a stroll though some mainstream news outlets and fact-check their claims about what is happening in Syria. Let us know how you get on.
 
Quit Worrying about who to trust: trust no one, start verifying

Okay, one last round and then I just resign myself to the blanket dismissal by much of the forum of half the alleged evidence that's under consideration by the rest of us.

There are obviously problems with "alternative" media sources, ranging from nationalist bias (that differs from one's own), sometimes direct or indirect control by a nation's foreign policy establishment (roundabout state-controlled media), limited sources and reliance on rumor, and even outright moonbattery in some case.

It's just sad how so many of those on the free side cannot recognize the same problems in their own media environment. I blame the sheer pervasiveness of the "Western" (corporate controlled) media for its common confusion with reality (or rather objective journalism giving us the freest possible view of it).

Just in this thread, apparently missed by most, we've seen the signs why that's wrong. There's the Western reliance on "activists say" for a majority of their reporting. What are the journalistic credentials and ethics of these "Acitivists" writing half our news on Syria? The media can never verify, but can always support with "however, the regime's forces have been known (previously reported by activists) to..." and leave the reader feeling like the new report is just as true.

The reputable media at BBC failed to fact-check the analyst's error is calling dirt roads in a tree farm "tell-tale" "soviet-bloc"artillery tracks. They did not, however, fail to make a case for blaming the reviled regime. That's the one thing they do seem truly professional on here...

The clues are there for anyone to see. Just consider the use of "scare quotes" in relation to "terrorists." The Syrian government, based on its own knowledge of the victims, the timing, what their forces had and hadn't done, what those talking to them said happened, etc. decided right off that hardcore terrorists had slashed up those women and children of families who had stayed loyal and participated in the elections. Whenever the corporate media addresses this, it would be adequate to show it's not your own stance or a fact to say "the Syrian government blames terrorists." Instead, it's "the Syrian government blames "terrorists"." That shows active disbelief, and the reader gathers they're to distrust it too. Usually they do.

That's not journalism, it's politically-driven advocacy.

It's worse when they follow with explaining how "terrorists" is "their term for anti-government fighters" or even "demonstrators." Anyone who seriously believes Damascus argues that peaceful demonstrators rampaged through these lioyalist homes is daft. Anyone who implies it that way is dishonest. In the case in question, "terrorist" is code for, as they describe it, people who would slash up whole families to send messages to other families about who they'd better side with. I think it's a fair term, and deserves no such derision. Clearly, it's the whole argument that's being laughed into obscurity.

Why? Hmmm... it does complicate the war narrative a wee-bit, but probably that's a coincidence, right?

This lady, for one example, had the misfortune of not being asked after by CNN's people.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD0PA0BxNAQ
She has a whole different story from what the BBC reported, including a rebel takeover of the city during the rebel massacre, leaving many loyalists fleeing for their lives with her and others staying but living in fear. There are lots of details, things she saw, heard from others, possible rumor, possible fact (apparently a relative in the army giving her much of the details on fellow soldiers who were killed by the terrorists), things we could explore. But the NYT and Al Jazeera never reported on her or any of the others who have the same story. She spoke to Rusiian-ish news channel ANNA, and since the Russians might lie to support an ally (but never us to demonize an enemy), she should be ignored.

Anyone want to specify what the manner of the lie here is? Is this lady a Russian/Abkhazian actor? A Syrian actor hired by the regime? A genuine witness who's had false words put in her mouth? Why is it professional and balanced for CNN to ignore this witness and the many others who tell a remarkably consistent story?

Warning: you'll have to watch it to have any worthwhile opinion.
 
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For research, can anyone help me track down a good list in English of the victims as alleged by the opposition side? One of those observatories or free human rights good guy sources?


The auto-translated list I posted is the only one i'm aware of. It's supposedly from an opposition site. Search for the forenames of the siblings and other relatives of the Guardian boy and you'll find (most of) them, belonging to the same family Arif. I think that makes the list credible.

Wondered if I missed it or if the report of the UN investigation we hoped for at the beginning of this thread is still not out. It isn't, according to UN watchdog Inner City Press from yesterday:

Inner City Press said:
[...] Meanwhile at Thursday UN noon briefing, Inner City Press asked the question it had wanted to direct on Tuesday to Herve Ladsous, who refuses Press questions.

When will the Department of Peacekeeping and its observer mission in Syria complete the requested investigation into the killings in Al Houla?

Secretary General Ban Ki-moon's spokesman Martin Nesirky, for once, had an answer, even one written from which he read. Video here [no link, CE], from Minute 11:03.

Nesirky said that the Mission has sent its observations on the Al Houla killings to the Secretary General, who has sent them to the relevent UN bodies monitoring human rights in Syria. When their review is done -- or changes or censorship -- it will be submitted by the Secretary General to the Security Council.

But where will things be politically by then? [...]


edit: related report from Tuesday.
 
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The auto-translated list I posted is the only one i'm aware of. It's supposedly from an opposition site. Search for the forenames of the siblings and other relatives of the Guardian boy and you'll find (most of) them, belonging to the same family Arif. I think that makes the list credible.

That would be this in English, or in original Arabic to get around the weird translations.

I was wondering why Sayed never came up. They have it as Arif? I haven't made full sense of the list yet.

If it matched what the kid says, it could mean different things, but I don't find Ali the slightest bit credible. The list, maybe. For starters, he's about eight, not eleven. I guess the age is fudged up to make his scripted monologue for intervention seem less ridiculous, but that's a hunch.

Kurdi was a family of shepherds who supposedly were standing too near an attacked check point. AbdulRazaq comes up in large numbers, for a match with the gov. story. According to Hermann "several dozen members of one extended family, which had in recent years converted from Sunni to Shia [faith] were slaughtered." That must be this family. The rebels never specify their religion, only the Sunni Sayed families, who were targeted by the Alawites for being Sunni. "the Alawi family Shomaliya" is also never explained and "the family of a Sunni member of parliament who was [by the rebels] considered a government collaborator” is once at least acknowledged as the same family Myrayam (and app. Ali) supposedly belonged to, but that family was not "with the government," and there's never a mention of any of them being in parliament, let alone sworn in as speaker the day before the massacre.

Will have to do some translating/transliterating to see what "obstacle" comes out as, etc. I mean, one of the victims, "Zainab veins" is listed as not even human, but a "scorpion." ??? Back with that later...

Wondered if I missed it or if the report of the UN investigation we hoped for at the beginning of this thread is still not out. It isn't, according to UN watchdog Inner City Press from yesterday:

edit: related report from Tuesday.

I've looked for it several times and never found anything about the investigation coming out. I presume they're waiting until after the takeover, and then they'll probably just say it's too late to bother now. That might be overly-cynical, but it's been almost a month already.
 
Also, related to media bias, perhaps, I've done a little analysis on the Islamist, blade-centered aspect of the massacre and its downplaying by some Western officials, a BBC editor, and, strangely, Media Lens. That's here:
http://ciwclibya.org/syria.html
at the bottom.
 
I was wondering why Sayed never came up. They have it as Arif? I haven't made full sense of the list yet.

If it matched what the kid says, it could mean different things, but I don't find Ali the slightest bit credible. The list, maybe. For starters, he's about eight, not eleven. I guess the age is fudged up to make his scripted monologue for intervention seem less ridiculous, but that's a hunch.


But we also have the Abdul Razak victims on that list, of whom we know through the ANNA witnesses and the government account (ANNA and maybe FAZ saying that they were targeted for converting from Sunni to Shia). I agree that this kid looks much younger than eleven and is exceptionally brave if his account is true, but the matching names don't come from the WELT article i've linked or your youtube video, but from the Guardian interview which doesn't name or picture the boy.
 
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Here's the victims list stripped down to the names (the first 49 are children, Alsoiei and similar meaning Al-Sayed, I suppose):

[table="head;autonum=1]Name
Firas Abdul-Rahman Abdul-Razzaq
Suleiman Khalid Abdul Razak
Sulaiman Abdul Razak Shaalan
Samir Abd al-Razzaq al-Shaalan
Salary Shaalan Abdel-Razzaq
Yasser Adel Abdul Razzaq
Abd al-Khaliq Abd al-Razzaq
Halloumi Khalid Abdul Razak
Hamza, Feras Abdel-Razzaq
Ammar Adnan Abdul Razzaq
Mohamed Adel Abd al-Razzaq
Isaac Prince Abdul Razzaq
Alaa Samir Abdul Razzaq
Ayman Abdullah Abdul Razzaq
Nidal Yassin Abdul Razzaq
Oday Adnan Abdul Razzaq
Khalid Abdul Razak Obeida
Hazem Abdul Razzak Obeida
Mohammed Abdul Razzaq Obeida
Yasser Abdul Razzaq
Ammar, Adel Abdul-Razzaq
Bassam Alsoiei
Hazem Alsoiei
Bassam Jaber Alsoiei
Hatem Bassam Alsoiei
Mohamed Mahmoud
Omar El-Kurdi
Fadi Mahmoud
Fadi Mahmoud
Mr. Nader Arif
Mr. Adel Aref
Mr. Adel
Mr. Younis
Mr. Haider
Abdul Razzaq
Ayman Abdel-Razzaq al-Safa
Feisal Abdul Razzaq
Fatima Abdul Razzaq al-Shaalan
Manal Abdel-Razzaq
Guzel Samir Abdel-Razzaq
Samir Abdul Razzaq al-Nada
Princess Isaac Abdul Razzaq
Noor Abdul Razzaq Obeida
Yasmine Adel Abdul Razzaq
Cedar Faisal Abdul Razzaq
Rhv Hussein
Sarah Mr. Sid
Rasha Mr. Arif
Mr. Isra
Zahra Abdul-Khaliq Abd al-Razzaq
Abd al-Khaliq Abd al-Razzaq
Zainab Mustafa Abdel-Razzaq
Hassan Abdul Razzaq
Mohammed Abdul Razzaq
Ferial Abdel-Rahman Abdel-Razzaq
Khalid Abdul Razak
Salma Abdel-Rahman Abdel-Razzaq
Huda Samir Abd al-Razzaq
Aisha Abd al-Khaliq Abd al-Razzaq
Mona Mustafa Abdel-Razzaq
Safe Shafiq Abdul Razzaq
Fatima Adnan Abdul Razzaq
Mustafa Abdel-Razzaq al-safe
Shafiq Abdul Razzaq
Abeer Yasser Abdul Razzaq
Sawsan Samir Razzaq
Abdul Halim Abdul Razzaq
Rafidah Abdul Razzaq al-Shafiq
Immortality Hussein
Halloumi Khaled Kurdi
Raghda Sabd Bakkour
Mohammed Ismail
Fatima Ahmed Abdel-Al
Badria pots Moosa
Fadia Ashraf Harmoush
Dalal Abbas
Zainab
Feroz Ali Daher
Mr. Rajab sober
Fadia Abdel-Hamid Harmoush
Mjhowol
Khaled Abdel-Rahman Abdel-Razzaq
Abd al-Khaliq Abd al-Razzaq
Abdul Rahman Abdul Razzaq
Mahmoud Abdul-Razzaq
Ayman Abdel-Razzaq al-Firas
Samir Hussein Abdel-Razzak
Mustafa Hussein Abdel-Razzak
Said Faisal Abdul Razzaq
Mr. Sid
Mr. Sid Ahmed
Mahmoud Kurdish
Mr. Muhammad Arif
Mr. Mohammed
Mr. Adel Shawki
Mr. Mohammed
Abdul-Jabbar, Abdul Hai
Hossam Orabi
Talal Bakkour
Osama Knight
Berber safe
Mohammed Sahib
Mohammed Shafiq
Ghias Suleiman Abdul Samad
Ammar Abdel Gawad
Pioneer Isaac Alzakahi
Hussein Abdel-Razzak
[/table]
 
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F-4 shot down over Syrian waters and (maybe and 25 or 26 corpses of people from somewhere on the spectrum between innocent civilians to genocidal paramilitaries.

Wonder how this will go.

Optimistically the reports were the turks and the syrians were both looking for the plane together last I read.

As for the 25 corpses, it's been interesting watching the headlines over the course of the day. The first ones I read talked about a massacre of civilian regime supporters but later it was increasingly described as an ambush of militia.
 
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2012\06\23\story_23-6-2012_pg7_26

Syria accuses rebels of killing 25 govt supporters

* Annan urges pressure on both sides as 15,000 dead since March 2011

DAMASCUS: The Syrian government on Friday accused rebels of carrying out a “brutal massacre” of 25 of its supporters, as monitors said regime forces fired on demonstrators in second-largest city Aleppo killing nine.

UN-Arab League envoy Kofi Annan, meanwhile, urged the international community to raise the level of pressure on both sides in the conflict which monitors says has cost more than 15,000 lives since March 2011. “It’s time for countries of influence to raise the level of pressure on the parties on the ground and to persuade them to stop the killing and start the talking,” he told a press conference in Geneva.

The independent Syrian Observatory for Human Rights gave a higher toll for the pro-regime losses, saying at least 26 government supporters - most of them members of the feared Shabiha militia - had been killed.

The way I see it, describing the deaths of these 25 people (who could have been militia or could have been just regime supporting civilians) as 'pro-regime losses' is an indication of bias. If there was an incident in which government shelling killed a few dozen people who could have been civilians or could have been rebels, I can't imagine that being descried as 'pro-rebellion losses'. It would be called 'killed civilians.'
 
The way I see it, describing the deaths of these 25 people (who could have been militia or could have been just regime supporting civilians) as 'pro-regime losses' is an indication of bias. If there was an incident in which government shelling killed a few dozen people who could have been civilians or could have been rebels, I can't imagine that being descried as 'pro-rebellion losses'. It would be called 'killed civilians.'

Yeah, I think you're right. It's the kind we accept - the regime can't be crushed as we're all supposed to want unless its servants and lackeys are crushed first. That's what they get. I mean, how could one work for such a brutal regime? Don't they read CNN?

Had a look at the news to figure out what you meant. (25 people can fit inside an F-4?) Why the Turkish jet decided to fly over Syria's airspace in the first place is a good question. Here's the latest:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/22/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE85D0IS20120622
- Syria shot down a Turkish warplane over the Mediterranean on Friday and Ankara warned it would respond decisively to the incident that threatened to open a new international dimension in the 16-month revolt against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
Yeah, I figured that was pretty much the reason.

And the killings, would need more info than I care to gather at the moment. For added context though, I'll remind the readers of the Aleppo FSA commander you cited earlier boasting of killing heads of families to terrorize others into surrendering. And then this I was just tipped off to:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-impact-syria-rebels-divided-times-violent
One of northern Syria's most powerful and best-armed commanders, [Ahmed Eissa] Al-Sheikh boasts more than 1,000 fighters, and they don't shy away from rougher tactics themselves. They have released prisoners in bomb-laden cars and then detonated them at army checkpoints — turning the drivers into unwitting suicide bombers.
...
Opposition activists filter most information about the rebels sent outside the country, making it hard to get an accurate picture. But several groups said they had sent captured soldiers "to Cyprus," which in rebel shorthand means execution. So many poor Syrians have died trying to reach the island that the phrase "send to Cyprus" has become synonymous with "put to death," usually by gunfire.

One group said it had killed two brothers caught collaborating with the regime — one during interrogation [ie tortured to death?], the other by firing squad.
...
Videos of the group's attacks showed roadside bombs destroying tanks and flipping over army buses, as Islamic chanting played in the background. In one video, a booby-trapped van sped toward a checkpoint and blew up, splattering two soldiers into nearby trees.

The group was still high on a recent attack that had destroyed a military camp nearby. In the end, they photographed the dead bodies of 35 soldiers, drove off a tank they now park under a tree in the village graveyard and held trials for five captured soldiers. All were found guilty of killing other Syrians.

"They traveled to Cyprus," al-Sheikh said with a grin. "On a fast plane."

Expect more such trials as the Saudis make sure the FSA get steady paychecks as well as arms, and as arms and other "pressures" continue flowing in from various Western sponsors. The evidence: he's a government soldier. Verdict: guilty of murder. Sentence: death right there.

A side-note, a line I liked:
several rounds of sanctions and other attempts to isolate Assad have done little to stop the bloodshed.
Hmm... increasing pressure on the government plus increasing aid and encouragement and credulity extended to the rebels leads to more bloodshed. Wonder why? Do quickly suppressed insurgencies or artificially prolonged ones cause greater death and damage? That's not a moral question about the rebel motives, just a pragmatic one.
 
Barring some kind of Church report, I'm not sure how much 'confirmation' you're going to get regarding the extent and nature of CIA involvement in Syria.
 
I hope the CIA is arming the Syrian resistance.

Assad killed US troops. It's imperative that anyone who dares do that be made to regret it.
 

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