Mojo
Mostly harmless
Maybe even the "Guinness Special Export" variety (8%)?new skeptic said:
Homeopathy does work
- Thread starter Dr. MAS
- Start date
-
- Tags
- homeopathy
new skeptic said:James Randi better be ready with the money, because I can prove, beyond a reasonible doubt, under the most stringent conditions that homeopathy can actually treat one particular medical malady.... I'm gonna be rich!
(note: this one particular malady = dehydration)
May this be a TTTT/TTT but can be relevant. Consider effect on mucus.
Donks said:
Yes, shame in the sense that he was wrongly suspended. he is a senior homeopath and reside in GWR divison which is far away from my city. your administrator also knows very well. He did not provide any evidence of his suspension order. you are scientific lovers, this non-scientific act does fit with your image??????
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Homeopathy does work
Hi, Homeopath,
They have already admitted that homeopathy works but under 18x. They are running after molecules....
Non-Sense Homeopath said:hello brother,
Your father and mother did not give any comments whether it works or not under 18x.
Do you admit it works in 12x? Do you have any scientific evidence of not working under 12x? if you have you can win one million rupees which I will offer from my side.
Hi, Homeopath,
They have already admitted that homeopathy works but under 18x. They are running after molecules....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Homeopathy does work
Under a certain X factor (23 I think) there are at least some molecules of the "remedy" present so it is concievable that there could be some kind of effect.
I think you'll find that there are plety of people here who reject the notion that "like cures like" is a natural law. As Rolfe pointed ot, at least one cure is based upon an atypical reaction.
So not we have not "admitted that homeopathy works but under 18x"
Not quite true.Doc2005 said:Hi, Homeopath,
They have already admitted that homeopathy works but under 18x. They are running after molecules....
Under a certain X factor (23 I think) there are at least some molecules of the "remedy" present so it is concievable that there could be some kind of effect.
I think you'll find that there are plety of people here who reject the notion that "like cures like" is a natural law. As Rolfe pointed ot, at least one cure is based upon an atypical reaction.
So not we have not "admitted that homeopathy works but under 18x"
Hang on - I was aware that the remedies come in pil form, but I guess I hadn't really thought about it in terms of potentising.Zep said:
I thought the idea was that homeopathic remedies worked in conjunction with some amazing property of water that could 'remember' the effect of the remedy and magnify it.
But they claim that sugar has the same properties of memory and magnification?
So it's not an exclusive effect with water?
So what else has this effect? Does everything? Does air?
Can I put remedy on anything and that will increase it's power? You just need to increase the amount of the stuff you put it on?
What exactly is the theory behind sugar pill homeopathy?
(I'm going to assume the last part of your post was you joking Zep - please tell me it was you joking.)
Rolfe
Adult human female
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Homeopathy does work
We agree that there may (not definitely, because some of the calculations depend on assumptions made about the concentration of the mother tincture, which we are never told) be some molecules of the mother tincture in potencies up to 11C and 23X. However, we point out that after 12C and 24X we start to run out of molecules so that some or indeed many of the bottles prepared will have no molecules of the mother tincture in them. Once we get to 30C, the probability of any one bottle we happen to pick up having even one molecule of the mother tincture in it is vanishingly small.
Thus, we would especially like to hear your explanations for the effects you claim to observe from 30C remedies.
However, remarking that at 18X (not sure why you picked that one particularly) there will probably be a few molecules present, is not the same as agreeing that "homoeopathy works" at this level. First, it is probable that there are already so few molecules that little effect will be observed. Second, we see absolutely nothing to make us believe in all this "like cures like" stuff, and we really do not believe that a weak solution of some random plant or salt can possibly be a miracle cure for any disease.
Nevertheless, if indeed a "low-potency" remedy was shown to have an effect, this would simply be an aspect of herbal medicine. It would not be paranormal. As we are here on the JREF especially interested in the paranormal part of the claims of homoeopathy, that is the claim of effects from preparations with no molecules in them, that is the part we like to discuss.
Now, I note that no homeopath I have encountered before has any problem in agreeing that beyond 12C and 24X there are no molecules of the mother tincture present. These people have other explanations for the effects they think they see. However, it seems that Mas is now trying to deny this agreed fact. He is denying basic arithmetic which is accepted by all the professional homoeopaths in Britain and America and Germany and across the world, and apparently saying that there are indeed molecules of the mother tincture present in a 30C potency.
In that case, I would like to know, is he relying on the presence of these molecules to explain the effects he claims? If it could be shown to him that there are indeed no molecules there, would he agree there could be no effect?
And I would like to know, since it is basic simple arithmetic to show that there are no molecules at all in the vast majority of bottles of 30C remedies, what is his counter-argument that denies basic arithmetic and shows that there are?
Rolfe.
Wrong. And still wrong no matter how often you repeat it.Doc2005 said:They have already admitted that homeopathy works but under 18x. They are running after molecules....
We agree that there may (not definitely, because some of the calculations depend on assumptions made about the concentration of the mother tincture, which we are never told) be some molecules of the mother tincture in potencies up to 11C and 23X. However, we point out that after 12C and 24X we start to run out of molecules so that some or indeed many of the bottles prepared will have no molecules of the mother tincture in them. Once we get to 30C, the probability of any one bottle we happen to pick up having even one molecule of the mother tincture in it is vanishingly small.
Thus, we would especially like to hear your explanations for the effects you claim to observe from 30C remedies.
However, remarking that at 18X (not sure why you picked that one particularly) there will probably be a few molecules present, is not the same as agreeing that "homoeopathy works" at this level. First, it is probable that there are already so few molecules that little effect will be observed. Second, we see absolutely nothing to make us believe in all this "like cures like" stuff, and we really do not believe that a weak solution of some random plant or salt can possibly be a miracle cure for any disease.
Nevertheless, if indeed a "low-potency" remedy was shown to have an effect, this would simply be an aspect of herbal medicine. It would not be paranormal. As we are here on the JREF especially interested in the paranormal part of the claims of homoeopathy, that is the claim of effects from preparations with no molecules in them, that is the part we like to discuss.
Now, I note that no homeopath I have encountered before has any problem in agreeing that beyond 12C and 24X there are no molecules of the mother tincture present. These people have other explanations for the effects they think they see. However, it seems that Mas is now trying to deny this agreed fact. He is denying basic arithmetic which is accepted by all the professional homoeopaths in Britain and America and Germany and across the world, and apparently saying that there are indeed molecules of the mother tincture present in a 30C potency.
In that case, I would like to know, is he relying on the presence of these molecules to explain the effects he claims? If it could be shown to him that there are indeed no molecules there, would he agree there could be no effect?
And I would like to know, since it is basic simple arithmetic to show that there are no molecules at all in the vast majority of bottles of 30C remedies, what is his counter-argument that denies basic arithmetic and shows that there are?
Rolfe.
Badly Shaved Monkey
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
- Messages
- 5,363
Ashles said:
It's all true I'm afraid. Sometimes one forgets that not everyone has sunk so deeply into this madness as me, Rolfe, Hans et al, but it really is as ridiculous as you are describing. "water memory" is not even a relevant concept for most the ways in which homeopaths medicate their patients.
Yet another example of the dangers of applying even superficial rationality to the cult of homeopathy.
Rolfe
Adult human female
This is why I get picky when people assert that homoeopathy will cure dehydration, or thirst. For one thing, even the liquid remedies are usually taken in such small quantities that no meaningful effect on fluid status would be expected. But mainly, if you go into a chemist's shop and look at the homoeopathic remedies, what you'll see are bottles of sugar pills. The bottle I bought to test what a homoeopath told me, that if I just took a Belladonna 30C pill twice a day I'd be astounded by the effects and would never doubt homoeopathy again, was labelled "contents: sucrose/lactose". Just tasted like sucrose (ordinary sugar). And the pills had no effect on me that I could tell. I did it all "live" on the H'pathy forum, but they deleted all my posts after they didn't like the result.
So much for the memory of water.
The rationale is that Hahnemann was worried that as his products were transported around the country, the bottles might get all shook up and become too powerful! So he asserted that if you dropped a drop of the liquid potency on a sugar pill, and let it dry, the potency was "fixed" and could be transported safely. If there was ever any experimental justification for any of this, the results appear not to have survived!
Homoeopaths simply declare that the mysterious unmeasurable energies in the remedy are mysteriously and (conveniently) unmeasurably transferred to the pill. You can also ginger up the pill by redissolving it in water and giving it a bit of a shake. This is called "plussing". You can drink the solution if you want. You can also use that solution to prepare more "medicated" pills, and so on ad infinitum.
Then there's the "grafting" thing mentioned, where you just fill your bottle up with blank pills when there are one or two of the original batch remaining. This again can apparently be repeated ad infinitum.
When asked why any homoeopath ever buys a newly-prepared remedy, you get a lot of guff about "well, I'd only graft if there was no other way", and "support your homoeopathic pharmacy", and I think Barb finally did admit that she was perhaps a little less certain of the quality of a grafted product.
Now, this is all very interesting, but there's another contradiction. I asked them about the dose instructions on the bottle of Belladonna I bought. Two pills, it said. As opposed to the instructions from the homoeopath that I should take one pill. And why should two be necessary, if (as the homoeopaths often declare when sceptics try the old "suicide by scarfing the whole bottle" trick) that a dose is a dose is a dose, irrespective of the number of pils you take at the time? Is Boots just trying to double their profits on sugar at £4.50 a teaspoon?
The only answer anyone could think of was, well you can't be sure about the preparation, maybe not all the pills in the bottle got medicated, and so better take two just in case. Yes, right, this is the biggest chain of high-street pharmacists in the country, who sell aspirin at 65p a bottle, and you can be quite sure that every pill had 300mg exactly as it should have. And they can't make sure every sugar pill in the homoeopathy bottles gets wet?
But wait a minute, you said that if there were untreated pills in a bottle with treated pills, they'd take on the properties anyway!!!
No real answer. It looks as if they're a bit compartmented in their thinking. They have an answer for one question, and an answer for another, but since they never think about them together, then they're not contradictory, right?
Nice work if you can get it.
Oh, I forgot. Some of them also say that all you have to do is leave a bottle of blank pills on the shelf next to the real thing, and they'll take on the properties that way too. Which is why you see all those pictures of homoeopathic "kits" with all these vials of different remedies nestling happily side by side.... Go figure.
No wonder they can't do a placebo-controlled trial - the placebo bottles all get nobbled!
Rolfe.
So much for the memory of water.
The rationale is that Hahnemann was worried that as his products were transported around the country, the bottles might get all shook up and become too powerful! So he asserted that if you dropped a drop of the liquid potency on a sugar pill, and let it dry, the potency was "fixed" and could be transported safely. If there was ever any experimental justification for any of this, the results appear not to have survived!
Homoeopaths simply declare that the mysterious unmeasurable energies in the remedy are mysteriously and (conveniently) unmeasurably transferred to the pill. You can also ginger up the pill by redissolving it in water and giving it a bit of a shake. This is called "plussing". You can drink the solution if you want. You can also use that solution to prepare more "medicated" pills, and so on ad infinitum.
Then there's the "grafting" thing mentioned, where you just fill your bottle up with blank pills when there are one or two of the original batch remaining. This again can apparently be repeated ad infinitum.
When asked why any homoeopath ever buys a newly-prepared remedy, you get a lot of guff about "well, I'd only graft if there was no other way", and "support your homoeopathic pharmacy", and I think Barb finally did admit that she was perhaps a little less certain of the quality of a grafted product.
Now, this is all very interesting, but there's another contradiction. I asked them about the dose instructions on the bottle of Belladonna I bought. Two pills, it said. As opposed to the instructions from the homoeopath that I should take one pill. And why should two be necessary, if (as the homoeopaths often declare when sceptics try the old "suicide by scarfing the whole bottle" trick) that a dose is a dose is a dose, irrespective of the number of pils you take at the time? Is Boots just trying to double their profits on sugar at £4.50 a teaspoon?
The only answer anyone could think of was, well you can't be sure about the preparation, maybe not all the pills in the bottle got medicated, and so better take two just in case. Yes, right, this is the biggest chain of high-street pharmacists in the country, who sell aspirin at 65p a bottle, and you can be quite sure that every pill had 300mg exactly as it should have. And they can't make sure every sugar pill in the homoeopathy bottles gets wet?
But wait a minute, you said that if there were untreated pills in a bottle with treated pills, they'd take on the properties anyway!!!
No real answer. It looks as if they're a bit compartmented in their thinking. They have an answer for one question, and an answer for another, but since they never think about them together, then they're not contradictory, right?
Nice work if you can get it.
Oh, I forgot. Some of them also say that all you have to do is leave a bottle of blank pills on the shelf next to the real thing, and they'll take on the properties that way too. Which is why you see all those pictures of homoeopathic "kits" with all these vials of different remedies nestling happily side by side.... Go figure.
No wonder they can't do a placebo-controlled trial - the placebo bottles all get nobbled!
Rolfe.
Perpetual Notion
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2005
- Messages
- 406
Well I just spent an hour poking around OtherHealth.com. Hans deserves a medal or a therapist, I don't know which. Truly, there are no answers over there. Everyone says something different and when cornered gets angry. A lot of people say it's belief based. How can that not spell placebo to them?!
I've actually been to a homeopath. Seven years ago (I won't bore you with the details) I was desparate. The homeopath told me that homeopathy is designed to stimulate your immune system. I didn't really see how that would be helpful for people with auto-immune disorders, but whatever.
I spent six months and several hundred dollars on office visits and remedies. I didn't know anything about homeopathy and I really wanted it to work - I needed it to work. But it was money out the window, as was the naturopath. A year ago a new prescription medication was approved and my life has changed completely. It costs me $20 a month. Of course I can't make my own pills by taking a good one and placing it in a bottle of blanks
I've actually been to a homeopath. Seven years ago (I won't bore you with the details) I was desparate. The homeopath told me that homeopathy is designed to stimulate your immune system. I didn't really see how that would be helpful for people with auto-immune disorders, but whatever.
I spent six months and several hundred dollars on office visits and remedies. I didn't know anything about homeopathy and I really wanted it to work - I needed it to work. But it was money out the window, as was the naturopath. A year ago a new prescription medication was approved and my life has changed completely. It costs me $20 a month. Of course I can't make my own pills by taking a good one and placing it in a bottle of blanks
Ashles said:
May it be by specific change in shape/pattern of carriers(water, alcohol & lactose) molecules. Denaturing, isomers, strucure/form changes can be checked. You know under 'can photograph effect' I tried to explain both colours & shape/pattern/figure can effect. Somewhat alike H2O>>OH2.
Chris Haynes
Perfectly Poisonous Person
No... the molecules do not form in random patterns.
http://www.biology.arizona.edu/biochemistry/tutorials/chemistry/page1.html
Please learn some basic chemistry. There must be a used-book store near by where you can pick up a second-hand elementary chemistry book used in high school.
http://www.biology.arizona.edu/biochemistry/tutorials/chemistry/page1.html
Please learn some basic chemistry. There must be a used-book store near by where you can pick up a second-hand elementary chemistry book used in high school.
Chris Haynes
Perfectly Poisonous Person
no
Hydrogen Cyanide said:
Although it is indicated at few places, but you are a better judge. I shall not now consider that you will not tell anything differently, intentionally keeping in mind of so much convincing by me. It is just for you/science & for curiosity to me.
So/ pls tell me the possible changes which can take places in carriers on potentisation?
Badly Shaved Monkey
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
- Messages
- 5,363
Kumar said:
OK, you tell us. How many ways can the molecule H<sub>2</sub>O be arranged?
I'll give you an initial arrangement to get you started.
H-O-H
How many others can you come up with?