Homeopathy does work

[Zep]

OK, let's cut to the chase.

Dear Ashles,

Your (here your means all skeptics) point was homeopathy does not work.

Read 31+14 pages.

No, the skeptics are asking you, the homeopaths, to show that homeopathy DOES work. We are simply making the observation that science and logic do not seem to support your position, but if you can prove us wrong then great!

Read WHICH 31+14 pages??? Of what?

You had only one point, according to avogadro's number potencies does not contain any starting material hense it does not work. Actually you did not perform experiment to proove this opinion.

Actually we have. Many times. And you were shown the studies. And they were all NEGATIVE for homeopathy working. Selective memory all of a sudden?

I rejected this theory and you are now convinced that avogadro number theory is hypothetical base. Read few posts at www.nchpakistan.com forum. Then you (and other few members) starting shouting, we have no problem with avogadro's number. The problem is homeopathic medicines do not work.

Shouting? The only people shouting are you and your tiny band of colleagues.

Again a drama was staged by my colleagues and now you are again convinced that you have no problem with below 18x but you have some doubt over above 18x potency?

Kindly tell me who is wasting time? me or you? Who has problem in understanding homeopathic medicines? Me or you?

You. You have provided no explanation of how homeopathy works or even a convincing demonstration that is DOES work, so the problem lies with you. We know how things DO work, and anyone from a child up can demostrate it successfully time and again. We have provided clear evidence that shows homeopathy does NOT work, with an explanation as to why. So, again, the problem with homeopathy is with you.

However we remain open to new evidence, GOOD evidence. How about you?

 

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Dr. MAS
No, I never got.

You are lying. Several posters stated their qualifications.

Homeopathic class will start at www.nchpakistan.com forum on 10th may.

I have to conclude that you do not dare try to teach us here, then?

Those who are interested in participating in that class "How homeopathy does work?" fill out the proforma of admission. Separate classes will be organized for having different qualification status.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I must conclude that you are a simple troll . How sad.

Hans

I must confess, Dr. MAS is the most stupid person in homeopathic community. but frankly speaking why are you willing to sutdy homeopathy only on randi forum? what is the hurdle in studying homeopathy at nch or anyother forum. This is impartial forum. Decide anyother forum where administrator has no role to play. Where dr.mas said, he will only explain working of homeopathy at this forum?

 

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

How about this one

http://www.homeocurecenter.com

 

[Donks]

I must confess, Dr. MAS is the most stupid person in homeopathic community. but frankly speaking why are you willing to sutdy homeopathy only on randi forum? what is the hurdle in studying homeopathy at nch or anyother forum. This is impartial forum. Decide anyother forum where administrator has no role to play. Where dr.mas said, he will only explain working of homeopathy at this forum?

Welcome to the forum, NSH. Dr. MAS said he could explain how homeopathy works. He said it here. I expected him to explain here. I'm not going to join another forum to read yet another baseless "explanation," or worse, a 30 page thread avoiding the issue. I can get that right here.

 

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

This means you want to become student but want to study at home. You mean, a teacher will visit at your home on daily basis to teach you? Have you paid him something?

Frankly speaking he also said at other forum he will explain homeopathy. What is our fault who got registeration when the entire 50 pages were posted at paki mailing list and we got registeration at nch forum.

 

[Perpetual Notion]

Many posters here have belonged to other homeopathic forums and I believe that Hans is currently active in at least one other homeopathic forum. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I saw a recent post by him on another forum which I occassionally read.

MAS came here, we did not seek him out and if he wants to teach us something then he should do it here.

MAS wants us to move to another forum and you want us to move to another forum. Coincidence? For the time being I will give you the benefit of the doubt and welcome you to the forum. Welcome.

 

[Donks]

This means you want to become student but want to study at home. You mean, a teacher will visit at your home on daily basis to teach you? Have you paid him something?

Not exactly. Following your analogy, we were here sitting at home minding our own business and then Dr. MAS came in claiming to have these wonderful explanation. Just one problem, his explanation is for something which has no evidence of actually happening. Hence, I'm not that interested. Unless he has some evidence to back it up, so I'm not going to go chasing him around hoping he explains.

 

[Chris Haynes]

Using blatent selective quoting:

...
The problem is homeopathic medicines do not work. ...

Exactly.

Sorry, I could not resist .. oh, and I am still waiting to see the HIV/AIDS cure with homeopathy!!!

 

[Kumar]

Productive thinking

To declare homeopathic remedies works in/with science, following aspects may needed to be explained:-

1. Chemical constituents (Molecular/ its traces consituents) in remedies.

2. Equations of Chemical reactions in all potencies, if takes place during potentization process.

3. Calculation of dilutiing of any substance in remedy & its ultimate presence in remedies in molecular or its traces form along with scientific justifications of traces of molecular presence, if anticipated.

4. Mode of action & effect of remedies on applications.

5. Psychological & psycological effects.

6. Indications & doses.

7. Side effects & durd interactions.

In short, Description, clinical pharmacology, indication & doses, Side effects & drug interactions, warning precutions, overdoases contraindications, patient information, cometent authorities licences & approvals etc.

Pls understand "can be requirements to make homeopathic remedies scientific" by a sample at this reputed link.

Now pls tell me;

Can homeopaths do that? If not then what is the point of dicussions about molecular traces, 1/2 or few molecules etc.

Just concentrate on practical side that whether it effect or not effects by DBPC studies or otherwise as it satisfy to science or its people, obiously if it is really needed to make it somewhat scientific(and to give it to them) because with out it also it is well established & florishing just be mass people's.. experiances

Sometimes, I may think in discussing: Can homeopathic remedies just work by their effects on "acid/base/water(mucus) balances"?

These can be the gernalized/systematic effects or gernalized effects due to change in these balances/imbalances giving strentgh/rerangement to weak/derangd body's force or so called as "vital force", probably which then take care every imbalance/problem as a gernalized effect.

Best wishes.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I must confess, Dr. MAS is the most stupid person in homeopathic community.

I'm afraid I disagree. I have met worse .

but frankly speaking why are you willing to sutdy homeopathy only on randi forum?

Funny you should ask that question in reply to a post of mine.

what is the hurdle in studying homeopathy at nch or anyother forum.

The hurdle is generally that most skeptics get censored at homeopathic forums. I have hopes that NCH will prove different.

This is impartial forum. Decide anyother forum where administrator has no role to play.

Why? Have the administrators in any way been hindering any homeopath in debating here (provided they follow the rules)?

I can assure you that if you break the rules at NCH, you will get in trouble with the administrators there, too .

Where dr.mas said, he will only explain working of homeopathy at this forum?

That is not the point. The point is that Dr. MAS said he would explain it here. We are still waiting........

Hans

 

[Traveller]

No, I never got.

Homeopathic class will start at www.nchpakistan.com forum on 10th may.

Those who are interested in participating in that class "How homeopathy does work?" fill out the proforma of admission. Separate classes will be organized for having different qualification status.

I can't find anything about a class, or any admission proforma on the site. Why am I not surprised?

 

[MRC_Hans]

You can always join the forum. Not much traffic there, currently, but perhaps when Dr. MAS starts educating us there....

Hans

 

[Rolfe]

I guess I thought someone would at least try to answer a few questions or even cop to "I know that there's nothing in science that bears it out, but I have faith in it, even though I can't prove it". I know it's not a good answer, but at least they'd be honest about it.

Barbrae has done that, in a way. She's very touchy - she feels she can be as snippy as she likes to the sceptics, but as soon as someone gets a bit snippy with her (as is almost inevitable) she takes extreme offence and launches into interminable discussions defending herself from this "attack". Since she gives this activity priority over actually answering questions, and she has a tendency to declare that she has answered questions when she hasn't, and refuse to address the matter again, it can be a frustrating conversation.

Nevertheless, her position is much as you said. She believes on the empirical results she sees that homoeopathy "works". Although she is a practitioner, she declares that she's not scientifically-minded enough to be able to defend it on scientific grounds, and in fact once she said that she couldn't refute the assertion that it was no more than a placebo effect. She's listened to all our arguments, and simply sticks by the perennial homoeopathic standby, "it works for me in my practice".

She was here fairly recently, but when asked to explain the contradiction between a holistic approach and the homoeopathic concept of "layers" of disease, she retreated into incoherency and went away. She's also expecting a baby at the moment, so she probably has rather a lot on her hands.

Rolfe.

 

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Homeopathic course "How does homeopathy work" has been started. link your pages here

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28&st=0&#entry149

 

[Donks]

Homeopathic course "How does homeopathy work" has been started. link your pages here

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28&st=0&#entry149

Seems to be the same "course" we are getting here.

 

[flume]

According to him (which I understood), homeopathy does work but work under 18x potency. He and moderator of skeptic forum have the reservation on above 18x potency. They said, as above 18x potency does not have any molecule of starting material hense there is no question of medicinal effect in above 18x potency. (Please correct me if I mis-understood the representative) .....

You did misunderstand. Anor277 was answering a question asked by Non-Sense Homeopath, who asked about 6X, 12X and 18x potencies. That is why anor277 mentioned 18x. It is not some special dividing line in the minds of skeptics. (And as anor277 said, he was not representing JREF; he was posting as an individual.)
You need to explain homeopathic workings in all potencies. But the arguments might be different for the highest and lowest potencies. If you talk about Natrum Mur. at 30c, I would want to know why you thought there was any NaCl left in the remedy because it was so diluted. But if you talked about 6x Natrum Mur, I would ask why you thought a tiny bit of extra table salt could make any difference. I would also point out that the lactose in the pills probably contained a small amount of NaCl contaminant.

3. If I ask you to take four drops of 19x cyanide dilution as suggested by homeopath then would you take it?

Well let's see - it looks like my local water supply might contain 1 microgram of CN per liter, if I read the table correctly.

 

[Homeo Man]

Re: Re: Homeopathy does work

You did misunderstand. Anor277 was answering a question asked by Non-Sense Homeopath, who asked about 6X, 12X and 18x potencies. That is why anor277 mentioned 18x. It is not some special dividing line in the minds of skeptics. (And as anor277 said, he was not representing JREF; he was posting as an individual.)

Ok, you can offer your opinion here, if he was not the representative.

He came like a giant and immediatly shutdown in just two posts.

Does homeopathy work under 18x potency? You can try to reply here if you don't want to visit nch forum.

 

[geni]

Re: Re: Re: Homeopathy does work

Ok, you can offer your opinion here, if he was not the representative.

He came like a giant and immediatly shutdown in just two posts.

Does homeopathy work under 18x potency? You can try to reply here if you don't want to visit nch forum.

There is no decent evidence to show that it does and there are many cases where it clearly cannot.

 

[anor277]

Homeo Man wrote
Ok, you can offer your opinion here, if he was not the representative.

He came like a giant and immediatly shutdown in just two posts.

Does homeopathy work under 18x potency? You can try to reply here if you don't want to visit nch forum.

Wrong on count 2 at least, I am still active there and here, but I have my doubts of the good faith of certain members of the other board.

How should we know whether homeopathy is active at 18x potency? It certainly seems unlikely with simple inorganic salts such as sodium chloride or sodium sulfate. It is more reasonable to expect the proponents of homeopathy to publish their findings; do you know of such a publication?

 

[steenkh]

If I ask you to take four drops of 19x cyanide dilution as suggested by homeopath then would you take it?

Knowing that there is so much fraud in homoeopathy, I would be reluctant to take anything prepared by a homoeopath! But in principle, yes! If I could be sure that the dilution was made properly, I would be willing to drink it by the litre!

You may have heard that James Randi himself has publicly drunk a homoepathic dilution that originally contained a poison. In the Netherlands, a whole group of skeptics have - unsuccessfully - tried to commit suicide by drinking homoeopathic potions.