Gravy's "Loose Change" Critique, part deux

[DrCron]

I'm in the process of turning the doc into a nice PDF (perhaps a PS later, if people want one). I hope thats ok with gravy, and will await approval before releasing a link. I should have it up in a little while.

 

[delphi_ote]

I'm in the process of turning the doc into a nice PDF (perhaps a PS later, if people want one). I hope thats ok with gravy, and will await approval before releasing a link. I should have it up in a little while.

That is a very good idea, DrCron. If Gravy approves, I'm sure it will be much appreciated.

 

[DrCron]

Has anyone actually used a PC with microsoft office to open this? All the images are broken (endian diffrences it seems). It seems the easiest way to fix is to use office on a mac to reformat the images ala http://www.thrrrust.com/~pclark/blog/2004/12/quicktime-and-tiff-lzw-decompressor.html if someone could do this I can have the pdf a half an hour later.

 

[Darth Rotor]

More just emphasising clarifying - many of the newspaper articles (especially the stuff the Truthers like to cling to) make the waters a bit murky by trying to pin him to a terrorism exercise.

The ultimate presentation being this recent exercise at the Pentagon was ALSO one of these terrorism exercises (thus replicate the 9/11 attack).

Just wanted to emphasise to everyone that the exercise in question didn't involve terrorism, thus blowing all CT claims out of the water.

-Andrew

P.S. I believe the main reason most people report the aircraft speed in MPH is because it's familiar. Most people don't know what knots are. Likewise, here in New Zealand you'll usually see stuff like this described in km/h.

Thanks to Gravy, I took a peek on steel/temp curves. "Drawing a picture," will try to find a better one. Figure 3 is what shows why the argument against thermal loading as a likely cause for failure ignores simple material science.

http://www.wtia.com.au/pdf/TGN-PE-04 Weld Repair of Creep Damaged Steel.pdf

See also this article
http://www.key-to-steel.com/articles/art88.htm
but note that temps are in def F, not deg C, so do a little C = 1.8*f - 32 to match up the temps of jet fuel, and everything else that was burning, to see where some standard steel alloys would be expected to fail.

DR

 

[Gravy]

Has anyone actually used a PC with microsoft office to open this? All the images are broken (endian diffrences it seems). It seems the easiest way to fix is to use office on a mac to reformat the images ala http://www.thrrrust.com/~pclark/blog/2004/12/quicktime-and-tiff-lzw-decompressor.html if someone could do this I can have the pdf a half an hour later.

Thanks for offering to do a PDF. I wasn't able to create one with Acrobat that would preserve both the formatting and the hyperlinks: it would only do one or the other.

I get several emails each day about the LC critique, and I haven't had any complaints about the graphics. They are all jpegs. From the link you gave, it may be an issue with using copy/paste to place the images, although I thought I used the insert image command to avoid any such problems.

The recut version of LC2E is due out soon, so I'm going to wait for that before making revisions.

 

[Gravy]

Thanks to Gravy, I took a peek on steel/temp curves. "Drawing a picture," will try to find a better one. Figure 3 is what shows why the argument against thermal loading as a likely cause for failure ignores simple material science.

http://www.wtia.com.au/pdf/TGN-PE-04 Weld Repair of Creep Damaged Steel.pdf

See also this article
http://www.key-to-steel.com/articles/art88.htm
but note that temps are in def F, not deg C, so do a little C = 1.8*f - 32 to match up the temps of jet fuel, and everything else that was burning, to see where some standard steel alloys would be expected to fail.

DR

I'd be more interested to hear what you have to say about NIST's findings, since they're specifically about conditions in the towers.

 

[Darth Rotor]

I'd be more interested to hear what you have to say about NIST's findings, since they're specifically about conditions in the towers.

Thanks, Gravy, it may take a week or two to read their entire report, and if my brain can soak it up and spit out something lucid, I'll be happy to do so.

Were you interested in what I provided to you about Captain Burlingame and the MASCAL issue, or was I wasting my breath with that?

DR

 

[Gravy]

Thanks, Gravy, it may take a week or two to read their entire report, and if my brain can soak it up and spit out something lucid, I'll be happy to do so.

Were you interested in what I provided to you about Captain Burlingame and the MASCAL issue, or was I wasting my breath with that?

DR

Just read it. Thanks for all the info. I obviously didn't do enough homework on the subject!

 

[Darth Rotor]

Just read it. Thanks for all the info. I obviously didn't do enough homework on the subject!

I would not expect a single man to do it all. I took your request of offering insights (from your guide) to heart and provided what I could based on where I had specific knowledge.

Given the very hard work, and time you put in on your guide, it is the least I can do to help. The thanks, and honor, go to you.

DR

 

[jonronson]

deleted

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

deleted

BALEETED!

 

[CurtC]

October 24th, 2000. The Pentagon conducts the first of two training exercises called MASCAL, which simulate a Boeing 757 crashing into the building. Charles Burlingame, an ex-Navy F4 pilot who worked in the Pentagon, Participates in this exercise before retiring to take a job at American Airlines, where, less than a year later, his Boeing 757 allegedly crashes into the building.
That's wrong. Burlingame had been a pilot with American since 1979. Source (Thanks CurtC)

Please spell out the chronology, as your criticism is incomplete. Don't make your readers look around for the facts, your "source" link has much detail, and but also contains errors.

Loose Change is saying that Chick worked on these excercises at the Pentagon, then heads to American Airlines, the implication being that he left the military, then went over to AA to finish the job. I don't see a problem with saying "That's wrong." It omits the fact that he was in the reserves, but you don't need that fact to simply show that LC is wrong.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Loose Change is saying that Chick worked on these excercises at the Pentagon, then heads to American Airlines, the implication being that he left the military, then went over to AA to finish the job. I don't see a problem with saying "That's wrong." It omits the fact that he was in the reserves, but you don't need that fact to simply show that LC is wrong.

I disagree with you Curt.

It is significant that Captain Burlingame was a drilling Naval Reservist, who drilled at the Pentago . . . until 1996. Kill the LC BS by doing more than saying "you are wrong, he was an American Captain since 1979." That DOES NOT ANSWER THE military connection of Captain Burlingame, which is the core assertion LC jerkamania makes as it tries to build a conspiracy theory.

Since the evidence is available, as I point out, then slam dunk the sunzabitches with it. Bury them with it. Don't leave them a loophole, not a crack, not a breath of air.

I don't know if you knew Capt Burlingame or not, I never met the gentleman. However, I am angry at the libel and slander those LC morons are perpetrating on his name and reputation, the both of us being Alums of the USNA and Naval Aviation, so please forgive me if I don't find your minimalist riposte to be sufficient.

DR

 

[CurtC]

As many here know, I host the HTML version of Gravy's Loose Change Viewer's Guide on my own web site. Today I checked the server logs.

After it was posted, there were about 1000-1500 people per day viewing the page. Then around July 27, that number jumped to more than 20,000 (again, per day). I think this must be about the time that Maddox's blog posted a link to it (I had never heard of Maddox, but his blog is apparently pretty popular).

It peaked at more than 30,000 viewers on one day, and now the Maddox bubble is wearing off - it's down to around 7000 per day. Around half of those were referred by his site.

So far this month (it's the 18th), my server has delivered over 100 GB of data total.

By the way, there are six pages to the HTML viewer's guide, and I'm not counting visitors multiple times just because they viewed more than one page. It's now getting 7000 unique viewers per day.

 

[kevin]

So far this month (it's the 18th), my server has delivered over 100 GB of data total.

You gotta paypal link to help pay for bandwidth? I can cough up a few bucks to the cause.

 

[RUSirius]

SKEPTICS, WE NEED YOU AT THIS EVENT!!!

thanks
RU Sirius



9/11: Considering All the Claims
The producers of The RU Sirius Show bring you 9/11: Considering All the Claims. During this rare, FREE public presentation, you will be able to examine all the issues at one event on Sunday, September 10th, 2006.

The backers of the “shadow government” camp have many issues that they believe were not addressed by the authorities in investigating the attacks; the backers of the “Bin Laden-did-it” camp have questions of their own. Both sides have accused the other of perpetrating wild conspiracy theories and hoaxes upon the public, so we thought we’d provide an open examination and critique of the major points, especially given recent polls that show 42% of Americans suspect the government had a hand in causing the destruction of the Twin Towers.

Joel Schalit, a Managing Editor for Tikkun Magazine, will be representing those who are skeptical about the “conspiracy theories.” Fred Burks, who served as a foreign language interpreter for top officials in many countries, including Presidents Clinton and George W. Bush, will be representing the “pro-conspiracy” view.

The RU Sirius Show is a weekly podcast and internet radio program that explores weird memes and alternative cultures. Show guests have included Dave Eggers, Burning Man leader Larry Harvey, filmmaker Richard Linklater, and Blag Dhalia of the Dwarves.

RU Sirius Show host RU Sirius was the co-publisher and editor-in-chief of the legendary cyberpunk magazine Mondo 2000 in the early 1990s. Since then he has written eight books including “Counterculture Through The Ages” and “Design For Dying” with Timothy Leary.

Sirius will host the panel along with RU Sirius Show co-host Jeff Diehl. Other show cast members include Diana Brown and Steve Robles.

WHAT: 9/11 Conspiracy Theory Debate
WHO: The RU Sirius Show
WHERE: Off-Market Theater, 965 Mission Street (at 5th), San Francisco
WHEN: Sunday, September 10, 2PM
COST: FREE
FOR MORE INFORMATION CONTACT: steverobles |at| gmail.com

 

[delphi_ote]

SKEPTICS, WE NEED YOU AT THIS EVENT!!!

thanks
RU Sirius

Wish I could make it, but I'm in Orlando.

San Franscisco Autobots, transform and roll out!

 

[JimboWHO]

Gravy

I just joined (after lurking for a day or two) and found out what is well-known around here - that GRAVY is Mark Roberts. My hat is off to you on your Loose Change Guide - a very impressive job and an important service to the families of the victims. I loved reading every word of it!

Just thought I'd add my exchange with Dylan Avery to the forum.:

Dylan Avery,

Having read no fewer than 4 point-by-point rebuttals of Loose Change that utterly eviscerate your thesis I have a question and a comment. First the comment. To have dedicated your 'documentary' to the victims and their families is outrageous in view of the fact that you disrespect them so often throughout the story.

Secondly, when do you plan on: (a) reclassifying this story as fiction (b) acknowledging your countless errors and (c) apologizing for this charade ?

Jim Malmstrom

HIS REPLY:

Jim,
You talk a big game, but none of the things you bring up are true.
Thanks for your input, though.
-Dylan

 

[twinstead]

I'd love to have him tell us exactly what things you brought up that aren't true, and why

 

[delphi_ote]

I'd love to have him tell us exactly what things you brought up that aren't true, and why

And finally expose the truth for all to see? Are you mad? Do you know what would happen if Dylan told all?