Gravy's "Loose Change" Critique, part deux

Welcome Twistead,

Thank you

Or they saw something from the outside, that would lead them to believe that the building would fall down. If I saw that building, in the condition it was in, I would not go inside it. And I have no experience as a firefighter in NYc,NY.

Yes, I agree the only two things that make sense. Being in on some kind of CD plot, and then bragging about it to anybody within earshot makes no sense whatsoever, at least to me.
 
hmmmmm........

Let me think.........

This reminds me of someone....mabye some group.....

mabye some group who comes on here to argue with us.........

hmmmm..................;)

Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
- Charles Mackay
 
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
- Charles Mackay

Beware of people who think they have it all figured out
- My grandfather
 
From Les Raphael 15 June 2006
As for when the Naudets are going to be exposed, what the hell makes you think I'd know ? Another of your idiotic misconceptions ?

Once again, thank you for your response. I asked the question because since you believe the Naudets were going to be exposed, you should have an opinion as to when that might happen. In fact, you tell us:

From Les Raphael 15 June 2006
I do have a ton of circumstantial evidence, and that is goood enough to get the Naudets charged and convicted - some day - could be next week - could be in ten years.

So your best guess is somewhere betwen a week and ten years. That's a pretty bold prediction! In my opinion, ten years come and go without anybody being charged in a 9/11 U.S. government conspiracy. Even so, the conspiracy believers will not back down at all from their beliefs.

I'm going to show a little more courage than you and make my own predictions as to what will happen to the 9/11 truth movement in the next few months. My premise is that if you give someone enough rope, they'll hang themselves:

Interest in the conspiracy theory will grow. The 5th anniversary of 9/11 is approaching, so a network news channel will produce a report on the various 9/11 conspiracy theories. I would guess that it would be CNN or another cable news network, maybe something on a network news magazine show, but I doubt there's going to be a segment of 60 Minutes devoted to this topic (it would be great if there were, though, the more attention, the better). Or, it could wind up on a smaller show like Penn & Teller's B------t series. In any case, once the story airs, the public's perception will be that the 9/11 conspiracy theories are utterly without merit (no-plane theory, thermite, where are the passangers?, etc.). Afterwards, anyone who admits to believing in the conspiracy will be laughed at in their face, much the same as with moon landing hoax believers and Holocaust deniers.

It is possible that 9-11-06 may pass without such a documentary being aired. But I really think such a report will be aired, and it will be incredibly damaging to the 9/11 truth people. Right now, you guys are screaming for attention. You'll get the attention you deserve, but when it happens, you're *not* going to like it.
 
I really think such a report will be aired, and it will be incredibly damaging to the 9/11 truth people. Right now, you guys are screaming for attention. You'll get the attention you deserve, but when it happens, you're *not* going to like it.
My view exactly. If amateurs can expose big chunks of these theories armed with nothing more than Google & an email client, then just think what someone with real resources can do... For instance, I have this vision of David Ray Griffin explaining to an interviewer that Waleed Al Shehri is actually alive because the BBC said so, then being confronted with the Shehri family and asked to explain that again.
 
Wow. 911blogger.com claims that others knew WTC 7 was going to fall:

http://www.911blogger.com/2004/10/all-you-need-to-see-about-wtc7.html

3) just prior to WTC7 falling many were being told WTC7 was about to fall. it had been reported as on fire approximately 1-2 hours prior. people were told the building was about to fall [edited]...

Don't these Loosers even read their own propoganda? You guys can't have it both ways.
 
You guys can't have it both ways.
Yes they can. Just like Dylan is both fighting hard to defend Loose Change while bending over and doing whatever the Naudet brothers' lawyers tell him. Or the way the main stream media is totally biased, but the CTs constantly remind us how valid their arguments are when they come from a main stream media source. Or don't forget how those in the conspiracy are the dumbest, most obvious fools, but they're also capable of being anywhere at any time and doing anything, and getting it right the first time. Or the way they curse the government for cracking down on their freedom of speech while dropping anyone who isn't a believer from their forums.

Cognitive dissonance doesn't bother the conspiracy theorist. These guys are the champions of having it both ways. Hypocrisy is what they do best.
 
Cognitive dissonance doesn't bother the conspiracy theorist. These guys are the champions of having it both ways. Hypocrisy is what they do best.

And whenever you mention Islamic terrorism to them, the calamities that are happening in Iraq and Afghanistan, they of course acknowledge it. That's because they really have no choice, the evidence and the death toll is just astounding. But if you want to make them see that this Islamic terrorism might very well have been responsible for 9/11, they immidiately deny it and say it doesn't even exist. :boggled:
 
Gravy, have you ever heard about this guy?

http://www.ccdominoes.com/lc/LooseChangeGuide.html

That site disproves next to everything in this documentry...how exactly do people still believe it?
This entire site is easily debunked and I have exchanged emails with the webmaster and completely stumpped him. Basically, it's pretty easy to discount this whole site by the following passage:

Al Qaeda leaders, including Osama Bin Laden, claimed responsibility for the attacks. They said they were acting in accordance with the 1998 fatwa against the United States. Source

A more detailed look at bin Laden's and al Qaeda's claims of responsibility is here

He "proves" Bin Laden pulled off 9/11 by citing Wikipedia and 911myths. Clearly, there is no evidence the video they are using is authentic other than the Government's official stories about it.

Additionally, it is a fact that the hijackers never boarded the planes, or at least some of them since they are still alive. So if "Al Qaeda" didn't pull off 9/11, who did? Basically, this whole site echoes the "official" story by simply citing it where Loose Change and others veer off into provable facts.

There is no evidence 19 Arab "Jihadists" boarded the 9/11 planes. Even on the FBI's website, Osama is not listed with the crime of 9/11 because of lack of evidence in his involvement.

The "viewers guide" like the Offical fiction are easily taken apart by the mere fact that it is not conclusive that 19 Arab "Jihadist" connected to Osama Bin Laden ever really got on the planes on 9/11. It is the Achilles heel of the whole deception.

(bolding mine)

http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=6806&st=30
 
I guess the webmaster was so stumped they didn't even realise it...

-Andrew
 
Just saw this. I have no idea what it's about. For one thing, I don't have a website. There was one guy a while ago who emailed me with the claim that bin Laden never admitted to being involved with al Qaeda or 9/11, and I gave him a whole bunch of specific examples of how he was wrong. Doesn't sound like the same guy, though.

Occasionally I enter someone's email address into my spam filter because they keep sending insane rants, but that's rare.
 
Ah, NesNYC is the guy who claimed in emails to me that bin Laden is dead and al Qaeda is a threat manufactured by the U.S. He took me to task for my "Loose Change" critique, which he hadn't read. I'll contact him and ask him to continue this line of reasoning publicly. Here are the email exchanges we had. They may be of interest to people here.

----- Original Message -----
From: Nestor
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 9-11 Loose Change Second Edition Viewer Guide
Date: Sat, 03 Jun 2006 05:30:41 -0400

I just needed to look at one item and see if you were really informed on the topic. You weren't. This is in reference to your conclusion, sourcing Wikipedia
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacks#Responsibility , (echoing known government propaganda) as conclusive proof that Bin Laden was complicit of this crime.

But please look at the following release that aired on BBC a while ago, it's called "The power of Nightmares <http://marc.perkel.com/archives/000753.html " and spells out how Bin Laden is a manufactured US boogeyman.

But all you have to do to prove it to yourself quickly is to try and find any mainstream media article that mentions "Al Qaeda" and is dated earlier than 2000. You can't and you know why? Because the name "Al Qaeda" was the name given to an organization and an association given to Bin Laden in order to try him in absentia in US federal court after the Embassy bombings he was supposedly the master mind.

So a logical conclusion, if there is no Al Qaeda, who really hit the buildings?

Now, if you really want to look at constructive criticism of Loose Change, take a look here:
<http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/green/loose_change.html "Loose Change" An analysis by Michael B. <http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/green/loose_change.html Green

- and -

The <http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/index.html 9-11Research Companion to LOOSE CHANGE <http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/loose_change/index.html 2ND EDITION

Decide for yourself.

Best regards,

Nestor Delgado Brooklyn, NY
My reply:
Thank you for your email, Nestor.

I’m as much of a neocon-hater as anyone, but the BBC documentary “The Power of Nightmares” is not the world’s most accurate source of information. It’s been a while since I’ve seen it, but I remember that it makes some really egregious errors, such as claiming that there was no massive Soviet arms buildup in the 1970s.

Speaking of accuracy, what specifically is incorrect in the Wikipedia entry on bin Laden or al Qaeda? It’s important to me that I’m citing accurate sources. And if you do see errors there, why not make the necessary corrections?

I’m the first to admit that I’m no expert on al Qaeda, but I would like to correct you on a few points.

You incorrectly claim that the name al Qaeda (or any variant spellings) originated with the U.S. government’s trial of the African embassy bombings. That trial made al Qaeda a household name, but its first known mention in print, “Al Qaeda al Sulbah,” was by one of its co-founders, Abdullah Azzam, on page 46 of the April, 1988 issue of “Al Jihad.”

The first reference to al Qaeda in the mainstream U.S. media was on 14 August 1996, in a UPI article that referenced a U.S. State Department Fact Sheet issued that day:
“Earlier, during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Usama Bin Ladin drew on his family’s wealth ‘plus donations received from sympathetic merchant families in the Gulf region’ to organize the Islamic Salvation Foundation, or al-Qaida.” The full text of that State Department memo is here:
http://www.usembassy-israel.org.il/publish/press/state/archive/august/sd4_8-15.htm

The FBI began its criminal investigation into al Qaeda’s activities in the U.S. in 1996, based upon information from an informant who had been brought in by the CIA.

On August 24, 1998, MSNBC ran a story about bin Laden’s ties to the CIA which mentions al Qaeda:
“In fact, while he returned to his family’s construction business, bin Laden had split from the relatively conventional MAK in 1988 and established a new group, al-Qaida, that included many of the more extreme MAK members he had met in Afghanistan.”

The New York Times first mentioned “al-Qaeda” four days later, on 8/28/98.

Then there were the September, 1998 U.S. arrest warrants and November, 1998 indictments which mention al Qaeda’s history extensively. http://cryptome.quintessenz.at/mirror/usa-v-qaeda.htm
http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/binladen/usbinladen-1a.pdf

Finally, as for al Qaeda not existing, someone should really tell Osama bin Laden, because he uses that name all the time. Al Jazeera reported in 2001 that bin Ladin spoke about the origin of the name:
“We used to call the training camp al-Qaeda [”the base”]. And the name stayed.” http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_ID=10207

The bin Laden statement that immediately came to mind when I read your email was his famous “Your security” video message of November, 2004, in which he mentions al Qaeda as a real organization eight times. You can watch that video, and read al Jazeera’s translation, here:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/79C6AF22-98FB-4A1C-B21F-2BC36E87F61F.htm

I hope this information is of some help to you. I’m confident that if you give my “Loose Change” analysis a try, you’ll find it far more thorough and accurate than the sources you mentioned.

Regards,
Mark Roberts

Nestor’s reply

Okay, I think you misunderstood what "The power of nightmares
<http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=power+of+nightmares " had to say about the Soviets. There were no claims that the soviets didn't have massive arms build up, only that it might have been exaggerated by those in Washington that wanted to spend money on an American counter to this perceived threat. But looking at the situation realistically, we know for a fact that the Soviet regime by the 70's was in decline and decay, how then did the Straussian ideologues < :2006-15,GGLJ:en&q=leo+strauss manage to conclude that the military was devising some extra ordinary capabilities when the nation could hardly feed itself? The USSR by this time was slowly being eroded monetarily by the West and although they had their arsenals from the 50's and 60's by the time the 70's came their war machine was in serious decline and their need for natural resources then needed to be expanded hence the invasion of Afghanistan.

In the above example lies the strategy for what you saw unfolding before you with the whole terrorism issue. As the Straussian ideologues learned form events with the Soviet Union and their core philosophy that the struggle must be presented to the masses simply as "good vs. evil" proves highly successful when you want to accomplish other goals. They take non-existing threat or a marginally small threat and blow it out of proportions in order to scare the living daylights out of the target audience.

This now takes us to Afghanistan after the war. According to that MSNBC article you sourced. It is known that CIA was indirectly funding Bin Laden through the MAK, correct? If this is the case, why would they need an informant to tell them about "Al Qaeda?"

And I admit there was an error of fact about the 2000 date. I should have stated before this "informant" began collaboration with the Feds and other unsubstantiated rumors before then. And who was this informant who fingered "Al Qaeda?" His name is Jamal Ahmed Al-Fadl. And why was he in Federal court testifying against Al Qaeda?

Here's why <http://edition.cnn.com/2001/LAW/02/13/Embassy.bombings.trial/ :
Al-Fadl previously testified that he broke with bin Laden in 1996 after siphoning off $110,000 in al Qaeda funds that he could not pay back. He approached an American embassy and offered his insider's knowledge of an organization run by a man now topping the U.S. government's most wanted list.

And here's why:

David Baugh, a defense attorney for al-'Owhali, questioned Al-Fadl Tuesday. In the course of the cross-examination, Baugh produced a document showing the bill for keeping Al-Fadl in the witness protection program has cost more than $794,000 since 1999. The FBI's cost has been an additional $151,000 since 1997.

So here we have an admitted embezzler "siphoning off" $110,000 from Bin Laden and then getting nearly a million dollars from the US federal government to make a case against Bin Laden and "Al Qaeda." I, and others, see a conflict here.

Now, if you see "The power of Nightmares," in part 3 it is stated and is widely reported that the actual mastermind of 9/11 was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed

<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-15,GGLJ:e n&q=Khalid+Sheikh+Mohammad+911&btnG=Search who is believed to have sought funding from Bin Laden. Why hasn't a trail in connection with 9/11 been held against Sheikh Mohammed? Why on the FBI's own website
<http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm is 9/11 not listed as one of Bin Laden's crimes? None of this smells right.

And of course Bin Laden is going to mention "Al Qaeda" after 9/11 and after he died <http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/07/17/attack/main515468.shtml The people that are fabricating those "confessions" <http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/dotmil/arkin020199.htm need to get their act together and realize that Bin Laden, before 9/11, didn't mention "Al Qaeda" in any of his well publicized speeches. But in essence, the whole Bin Laden/MAK/CIA connection is one of convenience. Basically, Bin Laden was sent to Afghanistan in the 80's to keep tabs on the CIA
sponsored Heroine smuggling operation. He had very little to do with the actual Mujahadin resistance against the Soviets and possibly continued to run the drug running operations during the Taliban years and probably up until the US invaded. The "Islamist" resistance movement is just a front or a cover story for the real purpose of funneling millions to Bin Laden during the time frame in question and protection of the Heroine smuggling industry even during the time when we are led to believe that the Taliban had eradicated it. The Bin Laden family itself was connected to BCCI/Carlyle Group/Iran
Contra <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-15,GGLJ:e n&q=BCCI+Carlyle+Group+Iran+Contra and the US political figures and families involved in the above criminal operations.

This is the reason why "Al Qaeda" needed pilots in "training" missions in CIA front "aviation schools <http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006 -15,GGLJ:en&q=cia+aviation+schools " and the perfect fall guys for the false flag 9/11 operation <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2006-15,GGLJ:e n&q=911+false+flag .

But I think your going after Loose Change is a lost cause. There are indeed many errors of fact in it as I had pointed out two articles that really look at it critically and without using the usual "official sources" as you have used. However, muddled in the mess that is Loose Change, there are serious questions that have been glossed over by the 9/11 Commission and the conclusions of NIST. What you need to do is step back and read through the NIST report and see what they have omitted and compare that to the videos
Of that day. In that case 2 + 2 does not equal 4. It's very simple. That and the fact that, as I have shown above, Al Qaeda is a manufactured, or unrealistically projected organization, shows that the real criminals of the 9/11 attack are still at large and may strike again (if they don't get the wars that they want).

But look at it this way, how much is this war ultimately going to cost Americans <http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2005/08/19/opinion/20bilmes.html ? People kill people for a lot less money and in the geo-strategic climate that 9/11 has facilitated, you need to put the current "realignment" of power in perspective. A "Jihadist" could never realize the dream of turning the US into police state. But the US government can, in a time of crisis," pull off what the "Jihadist" can only dream of. There are your motives for this "war" and why it will only expand and eventually consume all of us in the USA. Bin Laden is dead <http://whatreallyhappened.com/osama_dead.html and the cause of the Islamic extremists is just as dead since 9/11 was the nail to their coffin. As an organized terror group, Al Qaeda never really existed. And if they were indeed based in Afghanistan, then they're remnants met their demise when the US invaded. If anything goes "boom" we'll have to look elsewhere for suspects and motive.
My reply:

Nestor,

If you had read my piece on “Loose Change,” you would know that I am thoroughly unimpressed by beliefs that parade as facts. You seem to believe that I should somehow give credence to the conclusions of “Loose Change,” despite the fact that its creators get every single material claim demonstrably wrong. Sorry, but I require evidence.

When you have evidence that your claims are true, I’ll gladly look at it. When you have evidence that a single person not already named in the “official version” had anything to do with the planning and execution of 9/11, I’ll be glad to look at it. When you have evidence that bin Laden is dead and that recordings of him have been faked, I’ll be glad to look at it. When you have evidence that Islamic terrorists did not attack the U.S. on 9/11, I’ll be glad to look at it.

Until then, you're just parroting the warmed-over beliefs of conspiracy theorists, and ignoring the mountains of evidence gathered by thousands of experts.

Sincerely,
Mark Roberts

So, I don't think I came across as "completely stumpped," but I'll see what Nestor has to say.
 
*sigh*

These people don't have a clue what a good and reliable source of information is.
 
If your looking for an "official".gov website connecting KSM and Osama, you can go here.
http://usinfo.state.gov/media/Archive/2005/Jan/14-610042.html
Al Qaeda Says It Carried Out September 11th Attacks
Allegations doubting Al Qaeda involvement proven false

pg 149 of the commission report
... Bin Ladin, apparently at Atef's urging, finally decided to give KSM the green light for the 9/11 operation sometime in late 1998 or early 1999. (p. 149)
 
Ah, NesNYC is the guy who claimed in emails to me that bin Laden is dead and al Qaeda is a threat manufactured by the U.S. .

That's the lightweight version of Nesync. He also thinks any and all suicidal bombings in Isreal or elsewhere are 'Zionist propoganda', he claimed all the old PLO hijackings were Mossad operations designed to 'get us used to Arabs taking over planes'. Pretty much anything that might point towards the guilt of Al Queda or Osama is 'Zionist propaganda'. Oh, and he's a holocost denier as well.

He tries to claim things on the screwloosechange comments section. His usual comment is to say 'We all know that (WTC7 was bombed, evil jooos eat babies, etc.)' withou a whit of evidence. He puts of links that are just comments posted into google to get kooky website results.

He's rather disgusting. And he talks his 'accomplishments' up a lot bigger than they really happened.
 
Ah. I knew he was a kook, but I didn't know he was that far gone. He's another one who bad-mouhted me on LC but refused my challenge to debate here.
 

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