Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[acbytesla]

Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV 2014.



Low mileage, 35,000 km.

Yes on the brakes, it would be pretty rare for the brake pads to be doing any of the stopping.

This is particularly noticeable on long downhill sections, where you set the level of regeneration to match the speed you want to maintain, (mimicking engine braking on a manual transmission).

I once filled up the drive battery doing that, and the car suddenly went "wheeeee!" requiring me to use the physical brakes.

Now I'm less impressed. This is the equivalent of 22,000 miles. At the rate your driving this car, you'll require maintenance before it does.

Brake pads should last between a minimum of 50,000 Km and 120,000 Km on the average car. I've heard of Tesla brake pads lasting 160,000 kilometers and more.

 

[Ranb]

This is particularly noticeable on long downhill sections, where you set the level of regeneration to match the speed you want to maintain, (mimicking engine braking on a manual transmission).

I once filled up the drive battery doing that, and the car suddenly went "wheeeee!" requiring me to use the physical brakes.

My brother and I were out in his Tesla Model 3 in a -20F MN winter on the way to Duluth. Duluth is built on a hill and the battery was too cold for regen braking. He let the car get up to 70 mph in a 55 zone (a bobsled run he said) before tapping the brakes and almost zipped by a police car at the bottom of the hill. He slowed down and creeped past the police cruiser, but was pulled over. He was cited for 70 in a 55. Opps.

 

[Agatha]

I regularly have to drive 500 miles with passengers and luggage, and sometimes it would be tricky to put in a few half hour breaks.
I guess once I have an EV I would adjust, but for now a hybrid would seem to fit my needs better.

My car advertises a range of 348 miles; as I have a wheelchair and hoist in the car adding weight I get nearer to 250-290 miles depending on the outside temperature, so I could do 500 miles with one or perhaps two breaks for charging. But I wouldn't drive for over seven hours without a meal/loo/rest break anyway. Last time I charged the car at a public chargepoint it was so quick, I barely had time to use the facilities before the car was ready to go.

When I was making the decision whether or not to get an EV last year, one of my worries was whether I would be able to charge the car easily in France - where I want to go this summer will involve an approx 700km/435 mile journey from ferry port to destination - but looking at the map on the Electroverse app, France has plenty of charging infrastructure.

 

[Rolfe]

Which car do you have, Agatha? It sounds like a great model.

You might find some useful information in this thread in the MGEVs forum, where members seem to agree that France is better than England as regards charging infrastructure. I think the Community Chat section is readable by non-members. Note, however, that the thread was started in 2021 and it's probably the more recent posts that will be relevant.

Charging across Europe

In August I drove my EV to Portugal and thought I'd share what I learnt. Portugal In Portugal there is a law that mandates that ALL public chargers must allow any approved App/RFID to operate them, so all chargers basically work on just one app / RFID card. When I went to sign up I found that...

www.mgevs.com

 

[Agatha]

I went with the Skoda Enyaq 85, I'm really happy with it. I needed the boot space so that ruled out several contenders when I was going round the dealerships.

Thanks for the link, I'll check that out.

 

[Rolfe]

It seems to be a very popular choice.

 

[The Don]

It seems to be a very popular choice.

Our neighbours have one, it's very comfy

 

[Rolfe]

I've heard good things about them.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm super annoyed at my government because policies couldn't be more stupid. Now while I care about climate change and the environment, the average shmoe is never going to take that into consideration. They can't afford to. What matters to them is the value proposition. So they don't give a damn what powers their transportation. Even though I live around rednecks who think EVs are all part of some liberal commie plot.

But more now than ever before, it is obvious that EVs will soo dominate the personal vehicle market. And for one reason and one reason only. Battery prices will continue to plummet. New manufacturing processes, new less expensive materials are definitely coming. Solid State batteries that promise 60 to 100 percent greater energy density are now being promised to be in EVs by Samsung, BYD, CATL and Exide battery manufacturers in the next 2 years. Imagine double the range or reducing battery weight by half. And studies are now showing EVs lasting as long or longer than ICE vehicles.

 

[Rolfe]

You are so right. Even the really good EVs of today are going to be left behind looking a little foolish by what's coming down the line, and it will be cheaper. But even as replacement batteries for 12 year old Leafs are a perfectly economical proposition at the moment, it's quite likely that inexpensive replacement batteries for today's 200-300 mile range cars will become available, bringing them up to the standard of newer vehicles at a price that won't break the bank.

Maybe I should look again at paint protection and rust-proofing.

 

[acbytesla]

You are so right. Even the really good EVs of today are going to be left behind looking a little foolish by what's coming down the line, and it will be cheaper. But even as replacement batteries for 12 year old Leafs are a perfectly economical proposition at the moment, it's quite likely that inexpensive replacement batteries for today's 200-300 mile range cars will become available, bringing them up to the standard of newer vehicles at a price that won't break the bank.

Maybe I should look again at paint protection and rust-proofing.

LOL. Do that yourself. Paying the dealer for that has always been a scam.

I don't want to pretend like I have some kind of crystal ball. Especially since I didn't invest in Tesla. But 25 years ago, I said it's all about the battery. Electric motors even then we're three times more efficient and more durable than internal combustion engines. If they could make batteries that are inexpensive enough and solve the issues of range and longevity people will switch to EVs.

But this at the time, this was not only a big if, but highly doubtful. Any money the entrenched automakers actually invested in EVs was as much for show than anything else. The big automobile manufacturer's thinking was that the high cost of the batteries made electric vehicles not very promising. At most Tesla and the others were chasing a boutique market vehicle for early adopters. It was not for the mass market.

But because the battery manufacturers almost all having been outsourced to China learned how to manufacture better and cheaper. In addition robotics made it so making a car really wasn't anything special.

So now China is are now at least 2 years ahead and the big automakers in the US and Germany have been caught flat footed.

 

[acbytesla]

But even as replacement batteries for 12 year old Leafs are a perfectly economical proposition at the moment, it's quite likely that inexpensive replacement batteries for today's 200-300 mile range cars will become available, bringing them up to the standard of newer vehicles at a price that won't break the bank.

Which does make purchasing a 2013 Nissan Leaf even more interesting. Not sure what one would cost today. But I can't imagine it being that much. Bur the mechanicals in it are likely to be in good working order. They came with 24 to 30 KW battery pack. In a couple of years you might be able to swap the battery pack for a 75KW battery pack for $10,000 US. So instead of having a car with a 100 mile range, you will have a car with a 300 mile range.

 

[LiteBright]

I'm super annoyed at my government because policies couldn't be more stupid. Now while I care about climate change and the environment, the average shmoe is never going to take that into consideration. They can't afford to. What matters to them is the value proposition. So they don't give a damn what powers their transportation. Even though I live around rednecks who think EVs are all part of some liberal commie plot.

But more now than ever before, it is obvious that EVs will soo dominate the personal vehicle market. And for one reason and one reason only. Battery prices will continue to plummet. New manufacturing processes, new less expensive materials are definitely coming. Solid State batteries that promise 60 to 100 percent greater energy density are now being promised to be in EVs by Samsung, BYD, CATL and Exide battery manufacturers in the next 2 years. Imagine double the range or reducing battery weight by half. And studies are now showing EVs lasting as long or longer than ICE vehicles.

In doing my research to buy an EV, we are close but not there yet. Even with electricity being about 1/5 the cost of gas for the equivalent range, the other factor is insurance. Right now it is significantly more expensive on an EV than an ICE vehicle. That will have to reach some parity before there is an economic incentive to go electric. I think we'll get there within a few years as the repair costs of EVs come down with competition.

I'm still moving ahead this spring but it will be a more expensive vehicle to own overall.

 

[acbytesla]

In doing my research to buy an EV, we are close but not there yet. Even with electricity being about 1/5 the cost of gas for the equivalent range, the other factor is insurance. Right now it is significantly more expensive on an EV than an ICE vehicle. That will have to reach some parity before there is an economic incentive to go electric. I think we'll get there within a few years as the repair costs of EVs come down with competition.

I'm still moving ahead this spring but it will be a more expensive vehicle to own overall.

I don't expect this to last. EVs have been more expensive to insure because they have been more expensive to repair because of the high cost of the battery packs. But according to recent studies they are on par with internal combustion vehicles on the cost to purchase and operate.

New study reveals the least expensive car to operate: 'We are never going back'

A new study has calculated the Tesla Model 3 to be the least expensive car to operate among the 50 best-selling vehicles in the United States.

www.thecooldown.com

If battery packs get less expensive than they are likely to see their insurance get cheaper too.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Which does make purchasing a 2013 Nissan Leaf even more interesting. Not sure what one would cost today. But I can't imagine it being that much. Bur the mechanicals in it are likely to be in good working order. They came with 24 to 30 KW battery pack. In a couple of years you might be able to swap the battery pack for a 75KW battery pack for $10,000 US. So instead of having a car with a 100 mile range, you will have a car with a 300 mile range.

You can already get a 62kWh replacement battery with CATL cells for US$7,600.00 (plus $307 freight) from China. That should provide ~250 miles range, which is pretty amazing for a 1st generation Leaf.

One good thing about the Leaf is the batteries are easy to swap. No plumbing, just unplug and unbolt it from underneath the car. There are YouTube videos of people doing it at home without a hoist! I don't recommend it though when the job shouldn't cost much. Sadly my local Nissan shop won't do it. Apparently they are too scared of the high voltage battery to touch it - which is silly because after you pull out the arming plug it's perfectly safe. Oh well, guess I will have to transport it to the nearest place that will do it, currently 160km away (I could drive there but big hills are in the way and I'm not sure it would make it. Less stressful to just put it on a transporter).

Meanwhile I'm going to see how long I can keep going on the current battery before it doesn't have enough range. I'm already a year over my planned vehicle replacement date, but love the Leaf so much I don't want to change. OTOH in a year or two I will have enough cash to buy a brand new EV if I want, though more likely I would just buy another second-hand Leaf (which are cheap and plentiful here). Plenty of options to consider while I wring as much out of this one as possible!

 

[Roger Ramjets]

I don't expect this to last. EVs have been more expensive to insure because they have been more expensive to repair because of the high cost of the battery packs. But according to recent studies they are on par with internal combustion vehicles on the cost to purchase and operate.

If battery packs get less expensive than they are likely to see their insurance get cheaper too.

Yep. Cheaper the car, cheaper the insurance. All we need now is for Chinese car makers to ship their cheap models over here, the ones that don't have all the fancy stuff we don't need.

The insurance on my Leaf dropped significantly this year. No doubt part of that is due to depreciation, an advantage of having an older vehicle. However with thousands of vehicles toasted by Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 I was expecting rates to keep going up, like my house insurance did.

 

[LiteBright]

I don't expect this to last. EVs have been more expensive to insure because they have been more expensive to repair because of the high cost of the battery packs. But according to recent studies they are on par with internal combustion vehicles on the cost to purchase and operate.

New study reveals the least expensive car to operate: 'We are never going back'

A new study has calculated the Tesla Model 3 to be the least expensive car to operate among the 50 best-selling vehicles in the United States.

www.thecooldown.com

If battery packs get less expensive than they are likely to see their insurance get cheaper too.

Interesting, thanks for that link. It doesn't match what I've been finding though. Maybe the Canadian market is different but even factoring in the same things that study did as well as an additional factor that is particular to this area*, what I'm finding is that the best EVs are going to cost me about $150CAD/month more than an equivalent ICE vehicle. Nevertheless, I agree that we are closing in on parity and the EV revolution is right around the corner. Even now, EVs make up about 20% of new vehicle sales in Canada and I think that hits 70% or more within 3 years.

*I spend about $300/month on tolls here and an EV would allow me to use carpool lanes on regular highways which will cut my toll usage roughly in half.

 

[acbytesla]

Interesting, thanks for that link. It doesn't match what I've been finding though. Maybe the Canadian market is different but even factoring in the same things that study did as well as an additional factor that is particular to this area*, what I'm finding is that the best EVs are going to cost me about $150CAD/month more than an equivalent ICE vehicle. Nevertheless, I agree that we are closing in on parity and the EV revolution is right around the corner. Even now, EVs make up about 20% of new vehicle sales in Canada and I think that hits 70% or more within 3 years.

*I spend about $300/month on tolls here and an EV would allow me to use carpool lanes on regular highways which will cut my toll usage roughly in half.

Well, I don't actually know anything for sure. So it wouldn't surprise me that reality is a little different or a lot different than what it might say in this article. Still, I'm seeing more articles today saying things similar.

 

[Rolfe]

I suppose it depends on where you are. My bank balance really really likes my (cheap Chinese) EV.

I'm not sure exactly how much my insurance was on my geriatric Golf GTi, but it was about £350. I had to pay a bit extra when I got the MG4, to cover the 10 months remaining on the policy, but it wasn't much. Then prices went up so I shopped around and got a policy for £495 for the second year. I've just let that renew because the quote came in at £380 and it wasn't worth my time to shop around again.

With cheap rate overnight charging it's costing me about 2.5p/mile for electricity. Even better, with an additional investment of £13,700 in solar panels, a house battery and a Zappi, my electricity bills overall seem set to be zero or better over a full year. The summer export of solar to the grid, even in cloudy Scotland, should more than offset all my consumption, both house and car. The car cost £26,950 new, so with a total expenditure of just over £40,000 I have a really nice new car which in effect costs nothing to fuel, and "free" electricity for the house too. Oh wait, if I also factor in the £4,000 insurance payout for the Golf, my total out of pocket investment was £36,650.

Servicing, while a scam and a rip-off, is still buttons, and the car has a 7-year warranty. I'm laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[zooterkin]

Yep. Cheaper the car, cheaper the insurance. All we need now is for Chinese car makers to ship their cheap models over here, the ones that don't have all the fancy stuff we don't need.

The insurance on my Leaf dropped significantly this year. No doubt part of that is due to depreciation, an advantage of having an older vehicle. However with thousands of vehicles toasted by Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 I was expecting rates to keep going up, like my house insurance did.

Would there be any problems with the insurance if you replace the battery with an after-market one from China?