Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[bruto]

On sensors, I agree, there are way too many already on gas cars. The question, though, is partly what happens when some of those go wrong. Because many of those will not stop you from getting home, and a few can keep on malfunctioning forever, or until they flunk an inspection. The quantity of sensors is not the only issue, but what they do and what is required to fix them is also there.

I rented a hybrid once, and it was, indeed, very nice in terms of fuel economy in the city. But once out on the highway, where the electric function did not add anything, it became just a moderately economical little car. On the open road, my gas only Hyundai gets better mileage than a Prius.

I haven't looked into how current plug-in hybrids work, but would, if going for a hybrid, want one that runs on electricity when possible, and uses the engine only as a range extender and recharger.

 

[Rolfe]

The thing is, if you can charge at home, a plug-in hybrid is absolutely pointless in most countries. You're carrying two drive trains, but only using one at a time. The theory is that you use the electric motor pretty much all the time, that it has enough range for your daily driving, and you recharge every night. The ICE is only there for when you want to go on a longer journey. There's quite a lot wrong with that.

This is no way to treat an internal combustion engine, they really don't like the prolonged inactivity this method of working entails. You're also carting its weight around, destroying your electrical efficiency, even though you're not using it. You have to charge the car every damn night, and you're stressing its small battery by charging it up and draining it multiple times for the same mileage an EV would get out of one charge. And you've maybe got 20-60 miles of battery range, which maybe sounds OK, but it does mean that you're going to be using petrol on a lot of trips you could do in an EV without ever having to worry about charging at all.

I heard of one guy who got a plug-in hybrid, and was getting on OK with it, but after only about a fortnight he said, it would just be great if this thing had a much bigger battery. Oh wait.

The only rationale for a plug-in hybrid is that you're not confident of coping with public charging on long trips. An EV has a much much longer electric range than a plug-in hybrid, so these long trips are going to be pretty few and far between for the average driver. Real world ranges of 300 miles are out there. How many days do you need to do more than that? Because it's for these days that you're humping an unused ICE with you wherever you go, and having to plug in every damn night, and stressing that small battery.

And what about these days? After 300 miles you really should be stopping for a break. Is 20 minutes too long for you? Get real. And you're only going to need to do that twice in a day at most. You're not going to be any slower than someone in an ICE car taking normal, reasonable breaks. The only thing left is the availability of ultra-rapid chargers, and that obviously varies from country to country, but round here they're going in at a phenomenal rate.

Plug-in hybrids have been pushed by legacy manufacturers, mainly by Toyota, because they want to go on making and selling you internal combustion engines, and then charging you lots of money to service them. Toyota actually invented the term "range anxiety", and they've been stoking this up and playing on people's manufactured fears to stave off the sale of as many pure EV cars as they can. The best that can be said for them is that they provide stabiliser wheels for people not yet ready to ride that bike properly.

 

[acbytesla]

I am so mad at the Republicans in the US right now. They are protecting the oil industry from the disruption of EVs. They are also protecting Musk and Tesla with the tariffs. It's moronic and way too late. If electricity storage reduces cost another 30 percent the entire industry will collapse.

An event I feel confident is inevitable.

 

[theprestige]

I am so mad at the Republicans in the US right now. They are protecting the oil industry from the disruption of EVs. They are also protecting Musk and Tesla with the tariffs. It's moronic and way too late. If electricity storage reduces cost another 30 percent the entire industry will collapse.

An event I feel confident is inevitable.

The electricity requirements of AI computing are astronomical. A thirty percent decrease in storage costs will barely keep up.

 

[acbytesla]

The electricity requirements of AI computing are astronomical. A thirty percent decrease in storage costs will barely keep up.

I'm not referring to AI, I'm referring to EV batteries. Battery cost of the average EV is 30 to 45 percent of the total delivered cost. A thirty percent drop in battery cost turns a 30 thousand dollar EV into a 24 thousand dollar EV Or a 50 thousand EV into a 40 thousand EV. EVs are getting closer to parity in acquisition cost. In fact judging from those here posting from Australia, NZ and Europe they are already there with these Chinese EVs. And the fuel cost of the EV is 1/3rd to 1/5th the cost. And even less if you have solar.

The numbers won't add up for Detroit and Exxon. Sure, Trump can delay the inevitable with tarrifs. But I doubt it will prevent a total collapse for Ford, GM and Chrysler.

 

[Ranb]

As long as your eggs isn't all in one basket or there is a single point of failure, than I think you're OK.

I both like and dislike what is happening with these cars. It's very cool that your car will unlock for you when you're within a certain proximity. And if I'm not mistaken lock when you start the car or sit in the driver seat. These conveniences are nice. But they add to the complexity of the vehicle. That is extra sensors and computer control. More things that can go wrong. Having chased phantom electrical issues with a vehicle I had and hated because of it, I really appreciate the KISS principle. Keep it simple stupid.

When everything is working as they should be, you love these features. When you're chasing down a mysterious problem you end up hating them.

The is a feature that can be disabled. If the Model 3 proximity lock is disabled, then the keycard is used to unlock and lock it.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I regularly have to drive 500 miles with passengers and luggage, and sometimes it would be tricky to put in a few half hour breaks.
I guess once I have an EV I would adjust, but for now a hybrid would seem to fit my needs better.

 

[The Don]

I regularly have to drive 500 miles with passengers and luggage, and sometimes it would be tricky to put in a few half hour breaks.
I guess once I have an EV I would adjust, but for now a hybrid would seem to fit my needs better.

A friend regularly also drives 500 miles in his EV but as a man in his early 60's he doesn't fancy driving for 8, 9 or 10 hours without a break.

Instead he stops for 30-40 minutes half way to have a coffee, something to eat, empty the dog and stretch his legs.

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah, for 500 miles it's not "a few" half-hour breaks. It's lunch.

 

[Rolfe]

Yeah, for 500 miles it's not "a few" half-hour breaks. It's lunch.

To be fair on that one, I do a 450-mile journey semi-regularly, and have to stop three times. I make that lunch, afternoon coffee and evening meal. Or on summer range, lunch, afternoon coffee, quick stop to get a few extra kwh, then arrive at the hotel for dinner. 500 miles would be much the same timetable. But. My car is only 51 kwh, which isn't a particularly big battery in today's terms. If I was serious about doing that journey without wasting time, I'd have bought a car with a bigger battery.

Lots of things around with 80 kwh or even 90 kwh batteries. Which charge from 10% to 80% in less than half an hour. Maybe you'd still stop twice, but in the context of a 500-mile journey that's not that much. If your first stop is over 200 miles into your journey you've been driving for 3-4 hours. Time for lunch. The car will be over 80% by the time you've bussed your crockery. You might want a second stop, but that might only be a ten-minute quickie to get enough to get to your destination. You don't have to "fill up" every time. It'll be ready by the time you've been to the loo.

It's a mindset that's very easy to get into once you've realised that a change in thinking is indicated. One thing that's great is that you just park up, plug the car in, wave a credit card at the charger, and head for the restaurant. No need to make a separate call at the fuel station on your way in or out of the service station. Also, so many nice eateries have chargers to tempt drivers away from the motorway that you don't need to eat Burger King if you don't want to.

 

[acbytesla]

To be fair on that one, I do a 450-mile journey semi-regularly, and have to stop three times. I make that lunch, afternoon coffee and evening meal. Or on summer range, lunch, afternoon coffee, quick stop to get a few extra kwh, then arrive at the hotel for dinner. 500 miles would be much the same timetable. But. My car is only 51 kwh, which isn't a particularly big battery in today's terms. If I was serious about doing that journey without wasting time, I'd have bought a car with a bigger battery.

Lots of things around with 80 kwh or even 90 kwh batteries. Which charge from 10% to 80% in less than half an hour. Maybe you'd still stop twice, but in the context of a 500-mile journey that's not that much. If your first stop is over 200 miles into your journey you've been driving for 3-4 hours. Time for lunch. The car will be over 80% by the time you've bussed your crockery. You might want a second stop, but that might only be a ten-minute quickie to get enough to get to your destination. You don't have to "fill up" every time. It'll be ready by the time you've been to the loo.

It's a mindset that's very easy to get into once you've realised that a change in thinking is indicated. One thing that's great is that you just park up, plug the car in, wave a credit card at the charger, and head for the restaurant. No need to make a separate call at the fuel station on your way in or out of the service station. Also, so many nice eateries have chargers to tempt drivers away from the motorway that you don't need to eat Burger King if you don't want to.

Or he could buy the Lucid Air with its 512 mile range or the Chevy Silverado with its 490 mile range. That is if he wants to spend a big chunk of change. Zag, if you really want to get an idea of what long distance EV motoring is like, you should check out the Out of Spec Motoring YouTube channel. Those guys are always doing long road trips in different EVs.

Out of Spec Motoring

Adventure through EVs

youtube.com

 

[Rolfe]

If that's the WLTP range, he won't get that though. They quote 0-100% in fairly ideal conditions. You won't go down as far as 0% anyway, and from the second leg on you're not going to charge to 100%. Also, if you're driving fast, you won't get the economy they're assuming.

But if you're prepared to shell out for a car like that - and they will get cheaper, and used models will appear on the market - then a single lunch stop of half an hour will see you the distance no problem.

 

[acbytesla]

If that's the WLTP range, he won't get that though. They quote 0-100% in fairly ideal conditions. You won't go down as far as 0% anyway, and from the second leg on you're not going to charge to 100%. Also, if you're driving fast, you won't get the economy they're assuming.

But if you're prepared to shell out for a car like that - and they will get cheaper, and used models will appear on the market - then a single lunch stop of half an hour will see you the distance no problem.

Probably not. But I do know that the Silverado has been tested and it got a couple of miles over the estimated range by a YouTuber. But that thing has IIRC a 200KWh battery pack.

 

[Rolfe]

Depends on how you drive it. If you're spinning it out then you'll get that range, but maybe not if you're just driving normally. There's a YouTuber who drove a Tesla from Edinburgh to London (400 miles) without stopping, but although he wasn't dawdling excessively, he was hypermiling to a fair extent. Also, if it gets cold you're going to notice it. Also if the car is heavily loaded, or it's wet or there's a significant headwind.

A lot of trouble has been caused by people believing these WLTP ranges, and then getting all upset when they don't get that under real driving conditions. Far better to take a chunk off these numbers and be realistic and not be chewing the crockery later.

 

[acbytesla]

Depends on how you drive it. If you're spinning it out then you'll get that range, but maybe not if you're just driving normally. There's a YouTuber who drove a Tesla from Edinburgh to London (400 miles) without stopping, but although he wasn't dawdling excessively, he was hypermiling to a fair extent. Also, if it gets cold you're going to notice it. Also if the car is heavily loaded, or it's wet or there's a significant headwind.

A lot of trouble has been caused by people believing these WLTP ranges, and then getting all upset when they don't get that under real driving conditions. Far better to take a chunk off these numbers and be realistic and not be chewing the crockery later.

I'm sure you're right. And let's be honest, 500 miles without stopping is a damn long way. At a 70 mph, that is more than 7 hours of driving. A break is probably called for anyone who get hungry or has to pee.

 

[novaphile]

Hmm...

I've been driving my plug-in hybrid for 10 years, and it doesn't appear to have these expensive faults that people are claiming.

The engine is fine, and happily survives the start-stop nature of a hybrid by having ceramic coated bearings.

The engine runs whenever extra power is required (towing loads up hill, sudden bursts of high acceleration for overtaking), it also directly drives the front wheels at speeds of 80 km/h or above.

So far, the most interesting maintenance has been the replacement of the rubber dust covers on the front suspension.

The engine does a much lighter duty cycle than a regular vehicle with an ICE and that would account for why they last much longer (in terms of kms driven, than normal ICEs).

Because the engine runs at optimum RPM whenever it is run, it uses much less fuel than a regular car.

As far as I'm concerned, the design of the vehicle gives the user the best of both worlds.

It is interesting, that, after 10 years of ownership, the engine and engine bay still look fresh and clean, as if it was a new car.

Similarly, it is still on the first set of brake shoes. (Last service, they were measured as having six millimetres of pad remaining, i.e. practically new.)

 

[acbytesla]

Hmm...

I've been driving my plug-in hybrid for 10 years, and it doesn't appear to have these expensive faults that people are claiming.

The engine is fine, and happily survives the start-stop nature of a hybrid by having ceramic coated bearings.

The engine runs whenever extra power is required (towing loads up hill, sudden bursts of high acceleration for overtaking), it also directly drives the front wheels at speeds of 80 km/h or above.

So far, the most interesting maintenance has been the replacement of the rubber dust covers on the front suspension.

The engine does a much lighter duty cycle than a regular vehicle with an ICE and that would account for why they last much longer (in terms of kms driven, than normal ICEs).

Because the engine runs at optimum RPM whenever it is run, it uses much less fuel than a regular car.

As far as I'm concerned, the design of the vehicle gives the user the best of both worlds.

It is interesting, that, after 10 years of ownership, the engine and engine bay still look fresh and clean, as if it was a new car.

Similarly, it is still on the first set of brake shoes. (Last service, they were measured as having six millimetres of pad remaining, i.e. practically new.)

It sounds as if have a good car. Out of curiosity What do you have? And how many miles are on it? The brake pads lasting longer is probably the result of the regenerative braking.

But I will say this. Ten years old doesn't necessarily impress me since I'm driving around a 91 Ford F250 with 320,000 miles. I'm counting on it going another 180,000.

 

[Rolfe]

Hmm...

I've been driving my plug-in hybrid for 10 years, and it doesn't appear to have these expensive faults that people are claiming.

The engine is fine, and happily survives the start-stop nature of a hybrid by having ceramic coated bearings.

The engine runs whenever extra power is required (towing loads up hill, sudden bursts of high acceleration for overtaking), it also directly drives the front wheels at speeds of 80 km/h or above.

So far, the most interesting maintenance has been the replacement of the rubber dust covers on the front suspension.

The engine does a much lighter duty cycle than a regular vehicle with an ICE and that would account for why they last much longer (in terms of kms driven, than normal ICEs).

Because the engine runs at optimum RPM whenever it is run, it uses much less fuel than a regular car.

As far as I'm concerned, the design of the vehicle gives the user the best of both worlds.

It is interesting, that, after 10 years of ownership, the engine and engine bay still look fresh and clean, as if it was a new car.

Similarly, it is still on the first set of brake shoes. (Last service, they were measured as having six millimetres of pad remaining, i.e. practically new.)

I gather they're well engineered and many people seem to like them a lot. I wasn't implying that they all have mechanical problems, just that the likelihood is higher, what with all these moving parts and compromises and work-rounds. Interesting you're seeing the same thing with the car appearing very clean compared to an ordinary ICE car that EV owners are remarking on. I think brake dust must be responsible for a lot more dirt than I realised.

 

[acbytesla]

Why one shouldn't be in a hurry to go electric:

• EVs are still on average more expensive to purchase than ICE vehicles. (Dependent on location)
• EVs on average depreciate at a faster rate.
• Charging at home may not be an option.
• Charging at a charging station takes longer. Much longer.
• Rapid developments in EV technology means waiting for less expensive future models is prudent.

And why they should:

• EVs are getting close to parity and there are government incentives in many places that may make them cheaper to buy.
• Charging at home is usually three to five times less expensive than buying gas at a gas station.
• Saves time of needless stops at a gas station.
• On average, much less maintenance. No oil and filter changes. Regenerative braking makes pads and rotors last 2 to 5 times longer.
• Technological advances is likely to mean EVs will have longer ranges in the future and will be less expensive.
• There is a high probability that government purchase incentives in at least the US will be terminated.

 

[novaphile]

It sounds as if have a good car. Out of curiosity What do you have? And how many miles are on it? The brake pads lasting longer is probably the result of the regenerative braking.

But I will say this. Ten years old doesn't necessarily impress me since I'm driving around a 91 Ford F250 with 320,000 miles. I'm counting on it going another 180,000.

Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV 2014.



Low mileage, 35,000 km.

Yes on the brakes, it would be pretty rare for the brake pads to be doing any of the stopping.

This is particularly noticeable on long downhill sections, where you set the level of regeneration to match the speed you want to maintain, (mimicking engine braking on a manual transmission).

I once filled up the drive battery doing that, and the car suddenly went "wheeeee!" requiring me to use the physical brakes.