Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[acbytesla]

Would there be any problems with the insurance if you replace the battery with an after-market one from China?

I doubt it. But you'd have to read the policy. The people that write Insurance policies are usually not engineers. They are accountants and lawyers. They are looking at repair costs

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Would there be any problems with the insurance if you replace the battery with an after-market one from China?

What they don't know won't hurt them. Cars are repaired with aftermarket parts all the time and insurance companies don't ask to be informed about it. Unless the battery spontaneously catches fire I don't think it will be problem. By far the most likely thing they will be asked to pay out on is a crash, and provided it wasn't caused by a component failure it shouldn't affect the claim.

Some possible good news. Yesterday I was talking to my friend who is an electrician and he told me he was working on a job at the EIT, who are running a course on repairing EVs. One of the things they teach is replacing the high voltage battery in a Nissan Leaf. If I'm lucky I might get my battery replaced locally for free! (I would just have to supply the new battery).

This is good news for all EV owners here because 'legacy auto' isn't interested in keeping old EVs running. It also segues in with the 'right to repair' bill that is currently making its way through parliament. This could be the start of a revolution in home repairs, which will be good for our pockets and the planet.

 

[acbytesla]

Some possible good news. Yesterday I was talking to my friend who is an electrician and he told me he was working on a job at the EIT, who are running a course on repairing EVs. One of the things they teach is replacing the high voltage battery in a Nissan Leaf. If I'm lucky I might get my battery replaced locally for free! (I would just have to supply the new battery).

This is good news for all EV owners here because 'legacy auto' isn't interested in keeping old EVs running. It also segues in with the 'right to repair' bill that is currently making its way through parliament. This could be the start of a revolution in home repairs, which will be good for our pockets and the planet.

Yes to all that. From my perspective, none of this is rocket science. Internal combustion engines are much more complicated than electric motors. What has been complicated about EVs has been battery management, but even that keeps getting simpler and simpler. The Leafs were originally designed with the idea that the batteries could be replaced.

I expect battery swaps will become much cheaper and simpler in the future.

 

[8enotto]

Having worked in collision repair I can say insurance companies insist on aftermarket parts. They can even go as far as to order the parts for the shops to use. Make sure we stayed on the cheap.

EV shouldn't be any different but I suspect depending on cost of a battery at the time of need could easily total the car.
As far as the insurer is concerned.

Adapting new battery tech to older tech cars isn't straightforward. Going from lead/acid to lithium ion means a new charging circuit and maybe battery management changes.
That will depend on battery makers emulating characteristics of the original in the replacement.

My Ryobi saw has two brands of battery, different circuitry. The original is better in many ways for the tool and charger. Both are Li tech but slightly different. If a new type of cell was used that could require a new charger.
Why would cars be different?

 

[acbytesla]

Having worked in collision repair I can say insurance companies insist on aftermarket parts. They can even go as far as to order the parts for the shops to use. Make sure we stayed on the cheap.

EV shouldn't be any different but I suspect depending on cost of a battery at the time of need could easily total the car.
As far as the insurer is concerned.

Adapting new battery tech to older tech cars isn't straightforward. Going from lead/acid to lithium ion means a new charging circuit and maybe battery management changes.
That will depend on battery makers emulating characteristics of the original in the replacement.

My Ryobi saw has two brands of battery, different circuitry. The original is better in many ways for the tool and charger. Both are Li tech but slightly different. If a new type of cell was used that could require a new charger.
Why would cars be different?

It's a huge change electrically from lead acid batteries because they are very different than Lithium batteries. The nominal voltage of a lead acid cell is 2.1 volts and 3.6 to 3.7 volts for lithium. The resistance varies quite differently as well. New chemistries may very well be different. That said, the ability to change charging parameters can and is easily changeable today. Take for example, my MPPT solar charger not only includes 4 different built in charging profiles, it allows one to create new custom profiles.

Your older Ryobi charger is dumb with a fixed charging profile.

 

[dirtywick]

are ev companies any better on the right to repair? i think there’s a lot of potential to make repair difficult through software for example. is that something ev automotive are any better on than ice?

 

[Rolfe]

It's a huge change electrically from lead acid batteries because they are very different than Lithium batteries. The nominal voltage of a lead acid cell is 2.1 volts and 3.6 to 3.7 volts for lithium. The resistance varies quite differently as well. New chemistries may very well be different. That said, the ability to change charging parameters can and is easily changeable today. Take for example, my MPPT solar charger not only includes 4 different built in charging profiles, it allows one to create new custom profiles.

Your older Ryobi charger is dumb with a fixed charging profile.

I'm not expecting to need to change my car's battery. It's LFP and likely to be good till the car falls to bits. I'm not expecting it to lose enough range to seriously inconvenience me in the medium term at least. However.

It may well become possible to switch a car's battery for a custom-made replacement designed for that car which will give it a significantly longer range and faster charging speed than the original ever had, for a relatively modest outlay. This can already be done for older Leafs, whose batteries were pants compared to modern stuff, and it gives them a new lease of life. One reason I'm glad to have a pretty common car is that if such a thing becomes possible, then it's likely that the common models will be the ones more likely to have such items offered.

I saw a video about an Australian Tesla which is getting quite famous, whose battery expired after 666,666 km, and the owner initially thought it was some sort of Elon Musk joke. The car was still under warranty as it was less than eight years old, and the owner enquired about a battery replacement. Originally Tesla was going to give him a reconditioned battery, but he had heard that a much improved battery was now available for that model of car, and asked about upgrading to that. Tesla shrugged its collective shoulders and rewarded him for putting that many miles on his car with a new improved battery, under warranty.

 

[novaphile]

There is an Australian firm who are replacing and upgrading EV batteries.

A battery with double the range of my existing battery is available for $18k (installed).

I'm pretty happy that things will be available when I need them.

By the way, make sure you keep your Leaf batteries if you upgrade.

I understand that there are kits available to convert them into a home battery.

(Something an electrician can do for you.)

 

[acbytesla]

I'm not expecting to need to change my car's battery. It's LFP and likely to be good till the car falls to bits. I'm not expecting it to lose enough range to seriously inconvenience me in the medium term at least. However.

It may well become possible to switch a car's battery for a custom-made replacement designed for that car which will give it a significantly longer range and faster charging speed than the original ever had, for a relatively modest outlay. This can already be done for older Leafs, whose batteries were pants compared to modern stuff, and it gives them a new lease of life. One reason I'm glad to have a pretty common car is that if such a thing becomes possible, then it's likely that the common models will be the ones more likely to have such items offered.

I saw a video about an Australian Tesla which is getting quite famous, whose battery expired after 666,666 km, and the owner initially thought it was some sort of Elon Musk joke. The car was still under warranty as it was less than eight years old, and the owner enquired about a battery replacement. Originally Tesla was going to give him a reconditioned battery, but he had heard that a much improved battery was now available for that model of car, and asked about upgrading to that. Tesla shrugged its collective shoulders and rewarded him for putting that many miles on his car with a new improved battery, under warranty.

I have a friend with a 2013 Model S. Charging it is kind of a problem today. It takes longer and longer to charge especially at a public charger. But the car still runs great. He would be happy at some point to swap out the battery pack if it made financial sense.

 

[Rolfe]

That's an old car. It's fairly amazing that everything else is running so well. I imagine there are replacement batteries available, but it's the "economic sense" part that isn't working. If cars that were made in 2013 are holding up so well, imagine how well cars made 10 years later are going to perform.

 

[acbytesla]

That's an old car. It's fairly amazing that everything else is running so well. I imagine there are replacement batteries available, but it's the "economic sense" part that isn't working. If cars that were made in 2013 are holding up so well, imagine how well cars made 10 years later are going to perform.

I wouldn't quite go that far. I own and drive a 1996 Chrysler and a 91 Ford F250 diesel. The Chrysler is a pain in the ass. The only problem of merit I have had on my truck is the fuel guage on one tank doesn't work and fixing it is a bit of a pain to repair. If I wanted to replace the sender I would have to lower the tank.

So I don't. Instead, I fill both tanks and then start by using the tank with the bad sensor and after I've driven 150 miles I switch to the tank that the fuel sender works.

The only part of the Tesla that should prevent them from driving 40 years and a half a million miles IMV is the batteries.

 

[The Don]

I have a friend with a 2013 Model S. Charging it is kind of a problem today. It takes longer and longer to charge especially at a public charger. But the car still runs great. He would be happy at some point to swap out the battery pack if it made financial sense.

A number of people who own the older Model S vehicles have reported this. The suggestion is that this is a software issue designed to get them to switch cars and allow Tesla to not have to provide free charging for life rather than a hardware issue. Parallels were drawn with Apple products.

 

[Dabop]

Got a 96 Toyota Corolla here which has been 'ok' with over 400000km on the clock, but its getting to that age that although the car itself is still in 'goodish' condition (the paintwork has the dreaded 'dark car clearcoat peeling' but totally rust free) the other stuff is wearing out, and repair costs are steadily climbing... clutch and front steering rack both had to be replaced recently, timing belt is due again, and luckily the A/C still works, because the drivers window doesn't...

The 99 Hilux is on its last legs (and has been for several years) with a terminal lower engine knock- but despite being told 'tow it home mate' it is STILL running- although I never take it more than 20km from home any more 'just in case' lol (the price of a replacement diesel fitted is actually more than buying a whole new Hilux of the same age!!!)- you can hear it coming a few minutes before it comes into view lol CLACK, CLACK, CLACK

Teslas here have a horrible reputation for parts availability- it can take multiple months to get even the most basic parts, and major parts even longer, where the Chinese brands have much better support- a local Tesla took over 6 months for panels to come after a roo hit (and was sold soon after), where a Atto 3 that needed a new bonnet after another roo hit had one arrive within a week...

(thats one thing that we need, it would be nice to see some bullbars for the Chinese cars- we need them out here lol- its funny seeing a small Japanese hatchback fitted with a bullbar, but they are worth it around here...)

One of the reasons that newer cars are avoided is that a roo hit can cost thousands in repairs with them, they often are big enough to cause crumple zones to collapse partially- big $$$ to repair, older cars without them bend metal but still drive straight afterwards... just bolt on replacement panels...
(a roo hit can do an amazing amount of damage even on a 4wd, a bullbar is a must..)

 

[dirtywick]

I wouldn't quite go that far. I own and drive a 1996 Chrysler and a 91 Ford F250 diesel. The Chrysler is a pain in the ass. The only problem of merit I have had on my truck is the fuel guage on one tank doesn't work and fixing it is a bit of a pain to repair. If I wanted to replace the sender I would have to lower the tank.

So I don't. Instead, I fill both tanks and then start by using the tank with the bad sensor and after I've driven 150 miles I switch to the tank that the fuel sender works.

The only part of the Tesla that should prevent them from driving 40 years and a half a million miles IMV is the batteries.

well to a certain extent. they’re still subject to the elements. wheel bearings, suspension, the frames will rot, those problems still exist in a lot of climates

 

[acbytesla]

well to a certain extent. they’re still subject to the elements. wheel bearings, suspension, the frames will rot, those problems still exist in a lot of climates

Sure, I've seen cars rot away in the Midwest where they salt the roads in the winter. And cars last 100 years with little oxidation at all in the desert Southwest.

 

[dirtywick]

Sure, I've seen cars rot away in the Midwest where they salt the roads in the winter. And cars last 100 years with little oxidation at all in the desert Southwest.

yeah it’s a big problem here. worse than it was, in fact. they don’t salt anymore, they spray brine, which gets where salt can’t.

of course, not a problem unique to evs

 

[acbytesla]

yeah it’s a big problem here. worse than it was, in fact. they don’t salt anymore, they spray brine, which gets where salt can’t.

of course, not a problem unique to evs

Exactly.

Now maybe I'm wrong for some reason I haven't thought about. But I believe that electric mobility should be much more durable and reliable than internal combustion engines could ever be.

The rotor is the only moving part in an electric motor. And the only place i can think of where there is friction is the rotor's main bearings .

Whereas an internal combustion engine has many moving parts and engine degrading friction throughout. Camshaft, pushrods, valves, timing chain and sprockets, water pump, oil pump, injectors, pistons, crankshaft, starter, flywheel rings and more.

You don't even need a transmission with an EV. There is so much less to go wrong. I have zero doubt that internal combustion engines will eventually be limited to specialty applications. It's no longer a question of if it will happen. It's only a question of when.

 

[acbytesla]

yeah it’s a big problem here. worse than it was, in fact. they don’t salt anymore, they
spray brine, which gets where salt can’t.

of course, not a problem unique to evs

LOL. Which is basically salt in a liquid form.

 

[dirtywick]

LOL. Which is basically salt in a liquid form.

yeah but it coats everything in a way that salt alone doesn’t once the snow it mixes with as it melts splashing up from your wheels. you get like a white film over most of your vehicle.

 

[dirtywick]

Exactly.

Now maybe I'm wrong for some reason I haven't thought about. But I believe that electric mobility should be much more durable and reliable than internal combustion engines could ever be.

The rotor is the only moving part in an electric motor. And the only place i can think of where there is friction is the rotor's main bearings .

Whereas an internal combustion engine has many moving parts and engine degrading friction throughout. Camshaft, pushrods, valves, timing chain and sprockets, water pump, oil pump, injectors, pistons, crankshaft, starter, flywheel rings and more.

You don't even need a transmission with an EV. There is so much less to go wrong. I have zero doubt that internal combustion engines will eventually be limited to specialty applications. It's no longer a question of if it will happen. It's only a question of when.

well there’s a lot fewer mechanical parts but there’s still some. for example, the rotary motion of the motor is transmitted to the wheels, there’s still steering and suspension components, wiring harnesses and electrical connections, etc. if it moves, it generates heat, and it wears. it remains to be seen how easy they are to repair and how available and affordable parts will be, and how much of an impediment software will be to them. imo

but they’re definitely more simple mechanically. less stuff moving the better