Dr. MAS - Please use this thread to explain homeopathy to us

[Chris Haynes]

...
Does anyone have the url for that cool "powers of ten" web site?

...

Here: http://www.alcyone.com/max/physics/orders/metre.html

Brought to by the same guy who does www.crank.net and www.catcam.com .

 

[delphi_ote]

Unless - did I hear someone say "plutonium"?

What "like" would plutonium cure?

 

[Darat]

What "like" would plutonium cure?

Apparently ME for one: http://www.otherhealth.com/archive/index.php/t-1117.html

 

[Mojo]

We've been brainstorming silly things round the lab this afternoon, like someone said it only takes 4 organisms of E. coli O157 to infect (and potentially kill) a human. And what about FMD virus? But I ruled these out in principle before we even figured out what they weighed, as being infectious agents having their infectivity residing in their capacity for reproducing inside the body. And the absolute zero chance of anyone being allowed to market a 6X preparation of any infectious agent. One fibre of asbestos can kill - but then that takes 20-60 years, anyway. And who knows which fibre has your name on it?

In any case, while these are undeniably effects, they don't sound particularly therapeutic. Even if homeopaths could establish that it was theoretically possible for their preparations to have any effect at all, they still have to demonstrate that they are effective in treating disease.

 

[Rolfe]

In any case, while these are undeniably effects, they don't sound particularly therapeutic. Even if homeopaths could establish that it was theoretically possible for their preparations to have any effect at all, they still have to demonstrate that they are effective in treating disease.

Well, exactly. We're trying first to see it there's any possibility of any physiological effect at all at a 6X dose. Prior to declaring -

I AM PERFECTLY PREPARED TO TAKE A NORMAL DOSE OF ANY 6X PREPARATION AT ALL, SO LONG AS IT HAS BEEN PREPARED HONESTLY AND CAREFULLY.

That would include cyanide, arsenic, botulinum toxin, ricin and even plutonium.

Then of course, we come to the point that, if you can't produce any effect at all, even from the most potent poisons, how is it that you're claiming to have very specific curative effects on disease?

Rolfe.

 

[wahrheit]

Apparently ME for one: http://www.otherhealth.com/archive/index.php/t-1117.html

You

• are female with a chronic fatigue-type illness
• have a feeling of a large, pressing weight on the forehead (Tip: keep the cats on the floor!)
• have sore muscles, asthma and suffer from "abdominal discomfort"
• are depressive
• and mentally not in a great shape

OMG

 

[Rolfe]

Here: http://www.alcyone.com/max/physics/orders/metre.html

Brought to by the same guy who does www.crank.net and www.catcam.com .

I don't think that's the one I was looking for - I was looking for the series of images that starts out way beyond the galaxies, homes in on a leaf on a tree in the grounds of the university, and ends up within one of the atoms of its DNA. They had it as a screensaver I think.

Ah, I got it!

No, this is what I was really after!

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Isn't it odd? This is the thread where we were doing the thinking, and got a lot of stuff worked out, and really advanced our understanding of it all.

Then the MAS collective returned, and bumped all the other, inactive threads by making nonsense posts, and ignored this one completely!

Rolfe.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Actually, I don't think it is odd. It is entirely in character. If they had anything sensible to discuss or wanted to have a real debate, a lot of things would be different.

However, I think this thread has become very interesting. If we start with a presumed 1M preparation, could we make a list showing at which X potency each of these most virulent poisons would fall below the safe to consume level? I would love to put that up on a couple of homeopathic forums .

Hans

 

[steenkh]

Do anybody know of a good website that shows how diluted the various potencies are?

 

[Rolfe]

However, I think this thread has become very interesting. If we start with a presumed 1M preparation, could we make a list showing at which X potency each of these most virulent poisons would fall below the safe to consume level?

This would be quite easy. All we'd need is the molecular weight of the substance under discussion (doing it all in grammes as per BSM's suggestion saved bothering about that, and made the calculations universally applicable as in fact the toxic doses of the poisons are also given in gravimetric units), and the LD50.

Since I have just comprehensively screwed up my mother's flight booking and I don't now have to go to the airport until 15.40 (just shoot me now!), I might be able to dredge up a figure or two.

Rolfe.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Do anybody know of a good website that shows how diluted the various potencies are?

That's easy: For each X, it is 10 times (so 6X is one million), for each C it is a hundred times (so the very common 30C is 10^60 ) and for each M, it is 1000 (so the quite usual 20M is ..don't bother).

Hans

 

[Dragon]

Actually, I don't think it is odd. It is entirely in character. If they had anything sensible to discuss or wanted to have a real debate, a lot of things would be different.

However, I think this thread has become very interesting. If we start with a presumed 1M preparation, could we make a list showing at which X potency each of these most virulent poisons would fall below the safe to consume level? I would love to put that up on a couple of homeopathic forums .

Hans

Also, what about a similar exercise for medicines?*
I'm thinking of those that are effective in very small amounts or concentrations.
Not quite the impact of quoting the numbers for poisons, but I'd still be interested.

*i.e. medicines as known to real-world medical science.

 

[steenkh]

That's easy: For each X, it is 10 times (so 6X is one million), for each C it is a hundred times (so the very common 30C is 10^60 ) and for each M, it is 1000 (so the quite usual 20M is ..don't bother).

Thanks, but what I really meant was some nice illustration on the lines of 6C being equal to one drop in a swimming pool. 12C one drop in all the oceans of the world, 30C one drop in a galaxy of water, 200C one drop in all possible universes filled with water ... or whatever!

Edited to add: I would like to use it as an illustration to a homeo-fan who refuses to believe that it is true that homoeopathy really is all about silly dilutions and magic. This particular fan thinks that homoeopathy is something about herbs, like-cures-like, and feeling one with the universe!

 

[MRC_Hans]

Mmm, should be no sweat to make a spreadsheet to do that.
I'll have to look at it.

Hans

 

[Rolfe]

Thanks, but what I really meant was some nice illustration on the lines of 6C being equal to one drop in a swimming pool. 12C one drop in all the oceans of the world, 30C one drop in a galaxy of water, 200C one drop in all possible universes filled with water ... or whatever!

Try the transcript of the Horizon homoeopathy programme.

NARRATOR: But then homeopaths found that many of these substances were poisonous, so they started to dilute them. This led to the extraordinary second principle of homeopathy: the more you dilute a remedy the more effective it becomes, provided it's done in a special way. The method homeopaths use to this day is called serial dilution. A drop of the original substance, whether it's snake venom or sulphuric acid, is added to 99 drops of waster or alcohol. Then the mixture is violently shaken. Here it's done by machine, but traditionally homeopaths would hit the tube against a hard surface. Either way, homeopaths believe this is a vital stage. It somehow transfers the healing powers from the original substance into the water itself. The result is a mixture diluted 100 times.

LIONEL MILGROM: That will give you what's called a 1C solution, that's one part in 100. You then take that 1C solution and dissolve it in another 99 parts and now you end up with a 2C solution.

NARRATOR: At 2C the medicine is one part in 10,000, but the homeopaths keep diluting and this is where the conflict with science begins. At 6C the medicine is diluted a million million times. This is equivalent to one drop in 20 swimming pools. Another six dilutions gives you 12C. This is equivalent to one drop in the Atlantic Ocean, but even this is not enough for most homeopathic medicines. The typical dilution is 30C, a truly astronomical level of dilution.

BOB PARK: One drop in all of the oceans on Earth would be much more concentrated than that. I would have to go off the planet to make that kind of dilution.

NARRATOR: But homeopaths believe that a drop of this ultra dilute solution placed onto sugar pills can cure you. That's why homeopathy is so controversial because science says that makes no sense whatsoever.

BOB PARK: There is a limit to how much we can dilute any substance. We can only dilute it down to the point that we have one molecule left. The next dilution we probably won't even have that one molecule.

WALTER STEWART: It's possible to go back and count how many molecules are present in a homeopathic dose and the astonishing answer is absolutely none. There's less than a chance in a million, less than a chance in a billion that there's a single molecule.

I have secreted in my bookcase somewhere a journal with a letter from a homoeopath in it, claiming that a 10M preparation was a dilution of 10<SUP> -20,000</SUP>. I can only assume he knows what he's talking about. Again, you'd have to know the actual concentration of the mother tincture before you could figure out exactly how many universes you'd need to be sure of finding a molecule, but it could be done.

Rolfe.

 

[Ashles]

You know Rolfe, when you put it like that it does make homeopathy sound a tad unlikely.

Of course the interesting question is, as always - how many people who use homeopathic remedies are actually aware of that information?

 

[Ashles]

I was just looking at a random homeopathic remedy for sale (in this case Natrum Phosphoricum ) and I see the dilutions available are:
6X
12X
30X
6C
12C
30C
200C
1M

So, just to see if I'm getting this correct, the 1M solution would actually be the lowest dilution (only 1:1,000 compared to 1:1,000,000 for 6X)?
But the order of the list seems to imply that 1M is actually the highest potency.

Also the accompanying explanatory text is interesting:

Really high potencies, such as 200C, are normally taken in very low doses (typically once per week) whereas lower potencies are taken every few hours for a few days. It is generally considered to be a bad idea to take high potencies often.

Anyone unfamiliar with dilutions would be given the impression that these are almost dangerous in their potency.

So a question for homeopaths - would you consider it dangerous to drink, say, 3 bottles of a 200C remedy?

In fact do homeopaths believe anyone has ever been treated for Homeopathic remedy poisoning?

If not - why does that site consider it to be "a bad idea to take high potencies often"?

I know this has been dealt with before, but I'm interested to see the opinion of our current crop of homeopaths.

 

[geni]

Well, if plutonium wouldn't do it, then I take it that nothing else radioactive could, by virtue of its radioactivity rather than its actual substance?

thorium 228 is worse. unfortunetly the only figues I can find are 2.4*10^-16 g per m<sup>3<sup> of air.

 

[Rolfe]

However, I think this thread has become very interesting. If we start with a presumed 1M preparation, could we make a list showing at which X potency each of these most virulent poisons would fall below the safe to consume level? I would love to put that up on a couple of homeopathic forums .

Well, anyone looking in my web cache might be wondering why I'm so interested in poisons. Fascinating stuff. Chemicals such as arsenic, cyanide and plutonium have relatively high dangerous doses. (Arsenic is about 15mg/kg, KCN about 10mg/kg and plutonium about 0.15mg/kg or 150µg/kg.)

Nerve agents such as sarin (see homeland security web site) are not dissimilar - sarin's TD50 (oral) is given as 2mg/kg.

The real nasties (on a weight for weight basis) are the "natural" compounds such as botulinum toxin, ricin and tetrodotoxin (again see homeland security). Ricin is given as 3µg/l, tetrodotoxin a whopping 334µg/kg (more than twice that of plutonium) and botulinum as only 1ng/kg (0.001µg/kg) for the type A (50,000 dalton) chain. Another real nasty is Staphylococcal enterotoxin B, at 27ng/kg.

I just compared that with Geni's information, and I see he mistranscribed the page, giving botulinum LD50 as 0.001mg/kg when it should have been 0.001µg/kg, or 1ng/kg. This makes my calculations of the necessary botulinum mother tincture to get a toxic dose out by three orders of magnitude.

So to get that dose from a 6X sugar pill (0.2ml), the mother tincture would have to be 35kg/l, and even for a teaspoonful of liquid potency (5ml), we're still at 1.4kg/l. Of pure toxin.

That's what I said, but it should have been 35g/l and 1.4g/l respectively. Possible, but in fact still very unlikely when you consider the apparent microgramme quantities in the actual mother tinctures as supplied.

(Gosh, guys, A MISTAKE!!! But hey, we had to find it ourselves, the MAS collective don't know their millis from their micros either.)

I've got most of the molecular weights but I have to go to the airport now so I don't have time to do the actual sums. Of course the very small molecular weight things like cyanide or arsenic (and actually ricin too) will have relatively low molar concentrations in g/l, compared to botulinum A at 50,000 daltons. Which means it's even less molecules of botox needed to do the damage.

Clearly botox is the only one which is even worth calculating in terms of going realistically close to doing anything at 6X, the others will be neutralised far more quickly. I'll do the exact sums later.

Rolfe.