Dr. MAS - Please use this thread to explain homeopathy to us
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However, at the very low potencies, that is under 24X and 12C, there are indeed some traces of the original mother tincture present. It would therefore be foolish to declare that it is entirely impossible that any such preparation could ever have any sort of physioogical effect.
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YOU ADMITTED THE PHYSIOLOGICAL EFFECT UNDER 24 POTENCIES AND DOES NOT WILLING TO ADMIT IT CAN WORK THEN WHAT IS PHYSIOLOGICAL ACTION? IF YOU SAY, SEPTRAN HAS PHYSIOLOGICAL AND I SAY IT DOES NOT WORK THEN WHO WILL CALL ME SENISBLE PERSON?
[/SIZ
There is a difference between having a physiological effect and doing what is advertised. If I tell you to eat 12 Big Macs a day in order to lose weight, it will have a physiological effect, but it will not work. And noone here has called you a sensible person, and noone will.Kumarclone said:
Homeo Man said:
Homeo Man,
quoting and rephrasing only the small parts you like of a post whose overall meaning is more than clear will not help your argument, neither will using color nor all-caps. And for Hahnemann's sake, I'm glad your attempt at SIZE=4 did not work.
And please explain your more than strange position, that you could only explain homeopathy of higher dilutions to people who understand the "6X" one's (or agree to this or that, or show you their doctorate etc.). This is not kindergarten, I'm sure someone here will grasp your reasoning.
I'm going to treat Kumar like he was people for a while - see if it makes a difference.
Um, no. We said all along that it is LOGICALLY POSSIBLE in SOME cases, but NOT necessarily in ALL of them.KUMAR said:
I see you have the obvious problem of jumping to illogical conclusions. We did NOT "admit" it DOES work in EVERY case, we allowed that it MIGHT work in a FEW cases. Obviously a BIG difference that you can't seem to grasp. (I'm having fun with caps today...)KUMAR said:
Who cares what anyone SAYS? The evidence of whether it actually works or not will be the deciding factor. Septran (Bactrim) has been tested for efficacy, and it does work well in most cases. But I'm also sure you are going to try and trot out the controversy about its side-effects as "proof" it does not work. Which is balderdash - it does indeed continue to work for the majority of patients, it's just that there are some previously unknown side-effects that need to be taken into account. Like any drug that has real efficacy, it needs to be treated with care simply because it DOES have an effect on the human body. Unlike homeopathy, which has none.KUMAR said:
Badly Shaved Monkey
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geni said:
That's still roughly 1ug/kg.
Are you really this dense or are you just pretending?Homeo Man said:
Producing a physiological effect is NOT equal to "working" as a medicine.
You could consume ten kilos of salt and the physiological effects would be tremendous. But it wouldn't cure cancer or AIDS or pneumonia. It wouldn't "work".
In order for it to "work", the substance would have to have a physiological effect AND treat a disease.
Get it? Or are you still in the dark?
Rolfe
Adult human female
It's difficult to do the calculations when we have no real idea of the concentration of anything in the mother tincture in question. We tend to assume, for the sake of argument, that this might be a 1M solution of the "active ingredient", but in fact this is unlikely for anything except the inorganic salts and suchlike.geni said:
However, you could do it the other way round. At a guess, I'd say a "dose" of a homoeopathic preparation would amount to maybe 0.2ml - that is one drop, what might be placed on a sugar pill, assuming 5 drops per ml. So, if you actually had a dose of 100µg in this 0.2ml, and it was a 1:1,000,000 dilution (6X), what would this imply was the concentration of the mother tincture?
OK, I think can do that. 100µg in 0.2ml is 500µg/ml, which is 500mg/l. Er, if the 1:1,000,000 solution is 500mg/l, then the mother tincture is 500kg/l. Not actually possible, is it? Even if the dose of the 6X was significantly more than 0.2ml - say the patient took 5ml (a teaspoonful) of the liquid potency - it still only brings it down to 20kg/l.
Is that right? Feel free to mock if not.
In fact, if we look at the actual preparation of LSD used to make the homoeopathic potency, (From the Devon School of Homoeopathy), we find that in fact only 250µg in total was used as the starting material.
And that was used for the proving at 30C, which rather makes the whole question moot. But even at 6X, well, you'd have a job to get high on that!
We've been saying, without really working it out, that "maybe" certain remedies at 6X might have some sort of physiological effect. However, this illustrates the extreme improbability of this actually happening. And as for 12X or 18X - forget it!
So the challenge is still open. For any plausible concentration of active ingredient in the mother tincture, come up with a substance which might actually have an appreciable physiological effect at a 1:1,000,000 dilution, assuming a standard homoeopathic dose of a drop or two. I'm not saying no such substance exists, but I'm beginning to suspect that it might not.
Rolfe.
geni
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Rolfe said:
Botulin toxin has an LD50 of 0.001 mg/kg for type A
http://www.mitretek.org/home.nsf/HomelandSecurity/Toxins#botulinum
Rolfe
Adult human female
Do I have to do it all myself? OK.geni said:
Assume a 70kg subject. That's 0.07mg for a 50% chance of dying of it. I don't know what dose would give appreciable clinical signs, but maybe a tenth of that might be a fair guess? So, 0.007mg, which is 7µg.
So to get that dose from a 6X sugar pill (0.2ml), the mother tincture would have to be 35kg/l, and even for a teaspoonful of liquid potency (5ml), we're still at 1.4kg/l. Of pure toxin.
I think. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Rolfe.
MRC_Hans
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A side note:
That method uses the same vial for all potencies. No cumbersome cleaning of vials, no difficult taking out small samples. Simply shake it, pour out the content, assume that a reasonable amount is left sticking to the sides of the vial, refill, shake, and repeat as many times as you care. Simple and cheap. Would be a criminally sloppy method if you were preparing anything but shaken water
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Hans
They can't even get their own stuff right. The "Hahnemannian" manner is to use a new vial for each potency. The single vial method is called the Korsakov method.
That method uses the same vial for all potencies. No cumbersome cleaning of vials, no difficult taking out small samples. Simply shake it, pour out the content, assume that a reasonable amount is left sticking to the sides of the vial, refill, shake, and repeat as many times as you care. Simple and cheap. Would be a criminally sloppy method if you were preparing anything but shaken water
.Hans
Mojo
Mostly harmless
I hope this doesn't set Kumar off again.MRC_Hans said:
Rolfe
Adult human female
You're right, I hadn't noticed that. I thought he just meant a "single vial" for each dilution, and maybe he does, but it's terribly sloppy to use the terminology which is specific to one method to describe the other.MRC_Hans said:
And note that the preparation had been lying about for 30 years before being used. Maybe one to bring up next time anyone talks about expiry dates on homoeopathic remedies.
I'm finding this interesting, because it's highlighting the enormous gap between the lowest concentration at which anything might have a physiological effect, and the point where you actually run out of molecules. Still something there up to 24X (assuming a 1M mother tincture), but complete uselessness already attained by 6X. Or in the C series, still something there until 12C, but complete uselessness already attained by 3C. Which rather puts 30C into some sort of perspective I suppose.
A fair bit of this effect is obviously due to the very small quantities of the remedy actually ingested. But that's an inescapable part of the system, we don't see people suggesting drinking litres of the stuff.
Rolfe.
It's SO nice to watch REAL chemists and doctors do their stuff in public. It's just SO simple when it is explained by experts...
And I'm sure the homeopaths are learning too, probably for the first time in some cases, of the complete bankruptcy of their "science".
Anyone seen Dr MAS here recently? Seminar preparation, my foot! More likely he's just driving the NCH cash-register...
And I'm sure the homeopaths are learning too, probably for the first time in some cases, of the complete bankruptcy of their "science".
Anyone seen Dr MAS here recently? Seminar preparation, my foot! More likely he's just driving the NCH cash-register...
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
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Actually, there have been invitations issued for that seminar. I'm sure we'll also see minutes from it, and pictures. Interestingly, pictures from a similar seminar, where MAS claims there are 400-500 participants, the pictures of the audience barely show a hundred people.
Invitation to this seminar here.
And the pictures I'm referring to here.
(nice badges)
Hans
Invitation to this seminar here.
And the pictures I'm referring to here.
(nice badges
)Hans
Rolfe
Adult human female
Well, part of me is waiting for someone to point out where I've dropped a couple of orders of magnitude, but so far it looks sound. And it makes sense too. 6X is the most concentrated preparation allowed by most authorities to be marketed as "homoeopathic", on the assumption that it's bound to be dilute enough to be harmless and so may be allowed to sneak under the regulatory wire.Zep said:
I suppose I'm so used to measuring low concentrations of various substances in body fluids, and knowing that 1ppm is a not-insignificant concentration of many things in body tissues, that I wasn't taking enough account of the effect of the tiny doses actually ingested. 1ppm may be an interesting concentration of a toxin in the liver, but the actual amount of that toxin in a drop or even a teaspoon isn't going to trouble the scorer.
So if any of the homoeopaths are going to try to go from "it contains molecules of the mother tincture" to "it works", they've got another think coming.
So how about it, guys? We've just demonstrated that even at 6X there isn't enough of anything in a normal dose to have any physiological effect at all, never mind a beneficial effect on disease. So, how about that explanation of how you think it works, again?
We think it works by means of wishful thinking and coincidental recovery, just like the 30C preparations (that means, it does nothing). If you have any argument to contradict this, please present it.
Rolfe.