Dr. MAS - Please use this thread to explain homeopathy to us

[Chris Haynes]

...Ah, I got it!

No, this is what I was really after!

Rolfe.

Thanks... those are definitely more cool!

 

[steenkh]

Try the transcript of the Horizon homoeopathy programme

Thank you! My homeo fan is not so strong in English that I will make him plow through the transscript, but if I cannot find a more graphic illustration I will just try to describe it myself!

It is actually interesting how many people that are shocked when you tell them about the high dilutions of homoeopathy. The positive aspect that people connect to homoeopathy , and the fact that many real doctors and apothecaries peddle these things, makes them think that there is nothing woo about the stuff. In Austria you seem to find it everywhere, and the books at the book stores proudly tells that homoeopathy used to be controversial, but after some big tests made in Germany, scienbce recognises that the effect is undeniable, even if the mechanics is still a mystery!

I have no idea what tests have been made in Germany, but I suspect it is the usual uncontrolled non-double-blind stuff that always tend to favour whatever the researchers would like to prove.

In Denmark we at least still keep it out of the apothecary!

 

[anor277]

Just regarding the toxicity of Pu, I read in a recent issue of the RSC general chemistry and industry journal (whatever it's called now) that the Queen (ERII) was once given a sample of plutonium metal in a plastic bag so that she could feel how hot it was! (This occurred in the 50's when she visited a new nuclear reactor - presumably she returned the bag). Does anyone have toxicity details for beryllium salts? I understand that they are fairly deadly.

 

[Ashles]

Rolfe this is fascinating stuff. Thanks for this info, and in advance for the calculations you're doing later.

 

[delphi_ote]

Apparently ME for one: http://www.otherhealth.com/archive/index.php/t-1117.html

I've been suffering from an acute case of Darat for a long time, though I fail to see what the symptoms have in common with radiation poisoning.

Ah well, a cure is a cure. I don't seem to be able to find any plutonium preparations for sale online. According to this site, though:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/homeopathy_advice/Resources/rates.html

I can create homeopathic remedies by dialing in the appropriate number on my radionics machine. PLUTONIUM is just 344551.

http://home.earthlink.net/~cj31/

And the machine only costs about $700! A few days to wait for shipping, a few instructional videos, a twist or two on the magic dial... POOF! No more Darat!

At long last, a cure!

 

[Mojo]

However, I think this thread has become very interesting. If we start with a presumed 1M preparation, could we make a list showing at which X potency each of these most virulent poisons would fall below the safe to consume level?

i.e. 1 mole of solute per litre of solution.

 

[Ashles]

This is getting confusing.

How exactly is this 1M preparation prepared?

What I think of as a 1M solution is what Hans is (I think) talking about here:i.e. 1 mole of solute per litre of solution.

Well their little guide says this:

Guide to potency scales
The X, L, C, or M refer to the number of parts of the dilutent (water and or alcohol) that one part of the mother tincture is diluted in. The letters are the roman numerals so X, L, C and M refer to 10,50,100 and 1000 respectively. The numbers refer to the number of times the tincture is diluted by that amount.

So for example, 6x = 1 part in 10, 6 times. So the final concentration is 1 in 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 x 10, or 1 in 1,000,000.

So I read 1M on that site as a 1:1,000 dilution.
That seems to be how they are referring to it.

 

[Dragon]

This is getting confusing.

How exactly is this 1M preparation prepared?

What I think of as a 1M solution is what Hans is (I think) talking about here:i.e. 1 mole of solute per litre of solution.

I think 1M = 1,000C - I'll try to find a link. You're right that it's certainly not "one molar" which is what real-world scientists mean by 1M.

 

[geni]

I've been suffering from an acute case of Darat for a long time, though I fail to see what the symptoms have in common with radiation poisoning.

Ah well, a cure is a cure. I don't seem to be able to find any plutonium preparations for sale online.

Plutonium Nit. 30- 50M

http://www.helios.co.uk/cgi-bin/store.cgi?action=link&sku=PLUT&uid=8073

 

[Darat]

...snip...

And the machine only costs about $700! A few days to wait for shipping, a few instructional videos, a twist or two on the magic dial... POOF! No more Darat!

At long last, a cure!

Alas - as usual it had no effect but I did have a slight itch under my left nostril today at around 4.55pm... perhaps you didn't dilute it enough?

 

[Darat]

Well their little guide says this:


So I read 1M on that site as a 1:1,000 dilution.
That seems to be how they are referring to it.

On the site geni linked to it shows the opposite series:

Click on "potencies"
Centessimal (1 in 100) (c)
Unless stated all potencies are centessimal. The common steps on this scale are 6, 12, 30, 200, 1M, and 10M. Other potencies are available - please contact us directly with your requirements using our free format order entry

 

[wahrheit]

I think 1M = 1,000C - I'll try to find a link. You're right that it's certainly not "one molar" which is what real-world scientists mean by 1M.

Correct, 1000C equals (1)M. I posted a list of their silly dilutions here.

 

[Ashles]

I think 1M = 1,000C - I'll try to find a link. You're right that it's certainly not "one molar" which is what real-world scientists mean by 1M.

Interestingly this page from a homeopathic site says the following:

Centesimal - one of three potency scales used in homeopathic pharmacy. It was the first potency developed by Hahnemann. 1 part medicinal substance (dry or tincture), mixed with 99 parts diluent (lactose or alcohol), and then succussed (shaken), yields the 1c potency. Taking 1 part of that potency mixed with 99 parts diluent, then succussed, yields the 2c potency. This is continued until the desired potency is reached. A 200c has gone through this process 200 times. A 1M potency has gone through this process 1,000 times. The higher the potency, the stronger the stimulation of the vital force.

So this description is different from the above one (although maybe it is what the previous site was trying to say).

A 1M dilution? Does anyone have any figures for how much you'd require to yield the likelihood of a single molecule?

I assume it's many, many universes...

 

[Ashles]

How many times can someone dilute pure water with pure water before they feel that they might be wasting their time?

And, as pointed out elsewhere, what about the effect of containers and whatever else is used to produce and store the dilutions? Surely there is more contaminant other stuff in any batch of remedy than there is of the actual 'active' molecule.

The more I hear about homeopathy the more amazed I am.

Surely the best way to dissuade anyone from ever using homeopathy would just be to explain it to them in detail.

 

[wahrheit]

*snip*
Surely the best way to dissuade anyone from ever using homeopathy would just be to explain it to them in detail.

I tried that numerous times in personal conversations, it never works with believers. There's still all these "vibrations" and "memory" things water performs, you know.

And the fact that we stupid skeptics and scientists don't "understand" the fact that water memorizes the good stuff but ignores contamination during the "succussion" ritual does not mean homeopathy is hocus-pocus, it means we are not yet able to explain it scientifically. Oh, and lactose and alcohol have the same magic talent of "memory" in their "clusters", obviously. Not to mention all the cool quantum physics that might or might not be involved.

Just like any mumbo jumbo, they'll come up with a bazillion new excuses and explanations in the course of a discussion.

 

[Vikram]

[mandatory Homeopathy joke]

How many homeopaths does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

0.0000000000000000000000001

[/mandatory Homeopathy joke]

 

[Garrette]

Just a thought, but if memory is the issue, then why do the homeopaths continue diluting it after the avogadro limit? They're not diluting anything physical so do they argue they're diluting a memory?

Wonder if that could be tossed into the debate with the believers.

 

[Rolfe]

Just a thought, but if memory is the issue, then why do the homeopaths continue diluting it after the avogadro limit? They're not diluting anything physical so do they argue they're diluting a memory?

Wonder if that could be tossed into the debate with the believers.

Most of the believers who can think at all have pretty much given up hope on water memory and are now into quantum theory. And I got several more papers where that one came from, if anyone can take the insanity. The joke is that I keep seeing homoeos declare that Milgrom's "research" has "proved" that homoeopathy works by quantum mechanics, while the actual papers (that's just the first of three) have not a single experimental result in them, or even description of any experiment - they're admittedly only a "metaphor", and all 50-odd pages can be summarised as "if Plank's constant didn't exist, maybe homoeopathy could be sort of quantum, man".

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

I think 1M = 1,000C - I'll try to find a link. You're right that it's certainly not "one molar" which is what real-world scientists mean by 1M.

The homoeopath I mentioned earlier, in a letter from bizarro-land published in the Veterinary Record, stated that a homoeopathic 1M potency was a dilution of 10<SUP> -2,000</SUP> of the mother tincture. (And that 10M was 10<SUP> -20,000</SUP> of the mother tincture.)

How that relates to other definitions I really don't know. How much in touch with reality the homoeopath in question was I also don't know.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Rolfe this is fascinating stuff. Thanks for this info, and in advance for the calculations you're doing later.

Do it tomorrow, honest injun. I screwed up my Mum's flight booking (apparently I can't get the words "Gatwick" and "Glasgow" the right way round on a booking form), as a result of which she was stuck at Abbotsinch (in the Executive Club Lounge, being fed tea and sandwiches by sympathetic BA staff so it wasn't all bad) for two hours this afternoon. I need to go and be solicitous for a bit to atone.

Rolfe.