Dr. MAS - Please use this thread to explain homeopathy to us

From the quotation posted by Perpetual Notion
[Homeopaths] should not purport to be able to cure any condition. Strengthening the vitality of the person is fine to say and many people will say they strengthen the immune system as this is a more marketable stance.
This is still dishonest though. "Strengthening the vitality" is basically meaningless, and saying that they can strengthen the immune system is an outright lie.

Interesting use of the word "marketable" there as well. They couldn't be in it for the money, could they?
 
Non-Sense Homeopath said:
Yes, they can explain its working in 30x but to those who knew how does it work in 6x.:p if somebody says, he does not know the working of 6x then he can join four years of DHMS course conducting by Dr. MAS, if he says, no it does not work in 6x then present your lecture and paper with supporting documents that it cannot work and win one million ruppees. :) So simple equation.:D
You sound like a preacher who wants to lure us into giving money to your church before explaining us the salvation thing.
 
Non-Sense Homeopath said:
Yes, they can explain its working in 30x but to those who knew how does it work in 6x.
OK. How do homeopathic remedies work at 6x? Please try to explain without using smilies, as they really don't add anything constructive to your argument.
 
Non-Sense Homeopath said:
Yes, they can explain its working in 30x but to those who knew how does it work in 6x.:p if somebody says, he does not know the working of 6x then he can join four years of DHMS course conducting by Dr. MAS, if he says, no it does not work in 6x then present your lecture and paper with supporting documents that it cannot work and win one million ruppees. :) So simple equation.:D
You live up to your name. This is, by far, the lamest exuse I have yet seen from a homeopath, and belive me, I have seen a lot.

You are simply trying to evade giving an explanation. If you were able to give an explanation, you would do so.

Come on, put up or shut up: Let us hear your very learned explanation, and let's see if we understand it.

Hans
 
Mojo said:
OK. How do homeopathic remedies work at 6x? Please try to explain without using smilies, as they really don't add anything constructive to your argument.

Do you agree 6x are medicines? Do these fall in "Medicine" category?
 
MRC_Hans said:
You live up to your name. This is, by far, the lamest exuse I have yet seen from a homeopath, and belive me, I have seen a lot.

You are simply trying to evade giving an explanation. If you were able to give an explanation, you would do so.

Come on, put up or shut up: Let us hear your very learned explanation, and let's see if we understand it.

Hans

If you can't provide the answer whether homeopathic medicines work in 6x or not and if not then how and if yes then how then you keep your mouth shut. :D

If you say, there is no molecules in 6x then how can you justify? and if you say, it has then why it cannot react?

Provide the answers of the above question, so that we may proceed forward. otherwise shut your mouth and don't waste our time. :D
 
Homeo Man said:
If you can't provide the answer whether homeopathic medicines work in 6x or not and if not then how and if yes then how then you keep your mouth shut. :D

I have provided the answer. Why don't you read it?

If you say, there is no molecules in 6x then how can you justify? and if you say, it has then why it cannot react?

Why don't you read my answer, instead of restating the questions? What is wrong with you? Can't you read?

Provide the answers of the above question, so that we may proceed forward. otherwise shut your mouth and don't waste our time. :D

I answered the question, and several others did. You are wasting our time by repeating a question that has already been answered.

:rolleyes:

Hans
 
Homeo Man said:
If you can't provide the answer whether homeopathic medicines work in 6x or not and if not then how and if yes then how then you keep your mouth shut. :D

If you say, there is no molecules in 6x then how can you justify? and if you say, it has then why it cannot react?

Provide the answers of the above question, so that we may proceed forward. otherwise shut your mouth and don't waste our time. :D
I stay away over the week-end and these threads become a mess.

Homeo man. pls explain what you mean with "work". this question has been answered a gazillion of times.
- 6x might have an effect on the body depending on original concentration and specifics of the original material.
- If by "work" you mean "cure" then no, but you could try to explain us in detail the workings of "like cures like" and prove me wrong (yeah, right)
- If by "work" you mean "just do something" then yes, see point 1 above.
CAN WE GO ON NOW?
 
Homeo Man said:
Do you agree 6x are medicines? Do these fall in "Medicine" category?
Homeopathy is a sham, whatever concentration is used. The idea that "like cures like" is total nonsense, the "vital force" does not exist, diseases are not caused by "miasms." The fact that there are molecules from the mother tincture present in 6x preparations has no bearing at all on whether homeopathy is a valid system.

So, no, 6x homeopathic remedies are not medicines, any more than any other randomly selected substance can be considered a medicine, because they are not selected by any valid procedure to treat the conditions they are claimed to treat.
 
Homeo Man said:
If you can't provide the answer whether homeopathic medicines work in 6x or not and if not then how and if yes then how then you keep your mouth shut.
Why should he? You came here, and your friends, all starting with an offer to tell us how homoeopathy works "in scientific terms". This we would be very interested to hear. But nobody can or will give us the explanation.

Now you come and say that we have to explain it to you, or else shut up? What a cheek. If you don't want to explain how homoeopathy works, by your understanding, then why did you come here? Nobody forced you. So, explain, or go away.

Choose a remedy, at 6X, and explain how it cures disease.

Rolfe.
 
Homeo Man said:
Do you agree 6x are medicines? Do these fall in "Medicine" category?
No. A solution at 6x will possess molecules of the original substance. That doesn't make it curative though. You could prepare a 6x solution of sugar if you wanted to. That wouldn't make it a 'medicine'.

For something to be a medicine, it would have to cure or treat or otherwise alleviate symptoms or manifestations.

If you wish, feel free to explain how a 6x solution of a substance would treat symptoms produced by a concentrated mixture of the same substance. For example: please explain how Potassium cyanide poisoning would be treated by a 6x solution of Potassium cyanide, if that is indeed what you claim.
 
Can anybody think of any homoeopathic remedy which, at 1ppm (best guess for 6X), would actually do anything similar to what the homoeopaths claim for it? I can't, really. (Bearing in mind that the selling of real drugs as "homoeopathic" preparations is forbidden at this sort of potency.)

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Can anybody think of any homoeopathic remedy which, at 1ppm (best guess for 6X), would actually do anything similar to what the homoeopaths claim for it? I can't, really. (Bearing in mind that the selling of real drugs as "homoeopathic" preparations is forbidden at this sort of potency.)

Rolfe.

I go away for the weekend and what do I come back to?

This effort by the homs does look very co-ordinated in their attempt to avoid the issues they can't deal with.

Well, boy/s, you came here making big claims about how you could explain homeopathy and were going to teach us all about it. You're not doing very well, are you. You must be dizzy by now running round in circles so quickly.

In answer to Rolfe's question, 1ppm remedy equates to roughly 0.00001mg/kg or 0.01ug/kg, so I don't think I can think of much at all, including KCN that would have a significant physiological effect. This assumes the mother tincture/substance was 100% "remedy". In reality mother tinctures tend to be quite weak source of remedy substance. If the "mother" was solid 100% KCN, would 0.01ug/kg matter?

HOMEOPATHS, PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS IS AN IDLE ASIDE JUST TO WORK THROUGH THE CALCULATIONS.

0.01ug/kg OF NaCl OR SEAWEED OR PEREGRINE FALCON'S FEATHER IS GOING TO DO NOTHING.

JUST GET ON AND DEAL WITH ROLFE'S PREVIOUS RESPONSE AND ANY ONE OF THE MULTIPLE TIMES YOU HAVE BEEN ASKED ABOUT WHAT IS PRESENT IN A 30C DILUTION OF SODIUM SULPHATE.
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
In answer to Rolfe's question, 1ppm remedy equates to roughly 0.00001mg/kg or 0.01ug/kg, so I don't think I can think of much at all, including KCN that would have a significant physiological effect.
Well, yes.

I've just been talking this over with my colleagues, and none of us can come up with anything that is likely to have a significant physiological effect at 1ppm. And even that concentration is assuming that you really did have a mother tincture that was 1M for the substance in question. Maybe some alkaloids are active in pretty small amounts, but before anyone starts getting excited about belladonna, it's necessary to point out that the concentration of any of the belladonna alkaloids in a mother tincture prepared from the whole plant is going to be very low before you even start. Nowhere even close to 1M.

It might be worth using this diversion into the "low-potency" realms of homoeopathy to highlight this aspect of the nonsense. We're so used to considering the commonly-used medium and high potencies, where we're talking about one molecule in a cube with sides several light years long, that we fail to remember just how insignificant the concentrations are even in the preparations we sometimes concede "might" do something because they aren't actually molecule-free. They seem concentrated in comparison with the preposterous dilutions that are more commonly used, but in comparison with what would be required to have an actual appreciable effect on the body, there's really nothing much there.

There's a reason why EU law insists that nothing less diluted that 6X can be sold as homoeopathic, and 6X is allowed. Because somebody worked out that for most of the things homoeopaths use, 6X wasn't actually appreciably different from nothing at all! Yes, you could identify it using sensitive analytical techniques, but in terms of being poisoned by a drop of a 1µM solution of KCN, as BSM says, well, not much of a risk.

So, before the homoeopaths can show that "it works" at 6X, they are going to have to show that 6X of anything they use has any appreciable biological activity in the quantities usually prescribed.

Then, they are going to have to show that the effect has any relationship to curing disease. Even if they managed to get over the first hurdle, this one is pretty much impossible. I can't think of anything at all for which a dose of 0.2 nmoles (that is assuming a dose of one drop, and 5 drops per ml) is actually therapeutic for any disease at all.

So, categorically, it "doesn't work" at 6X. Do you think there's any possibility that our homoeopaths will understand this?

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Well, yes.

I've just been talking this over with my colleagues, and none of us can come up with anything that is likely to have a significant physiological effect at 1ppm.

LSD is normaly used in 100 microgram doses.
 
So instead of having to increase my son's Atenolol from 50mg to 100mg because of pressure across the mitral valve was not reduced enough --- we should have just diluted it to being a one part per million solution?

So how will that work?

What I am saying (and this was answered to you several times by several people in several ways): You homeopathic notrums do NOT work...

Not at 30X...

Not at 6X...

and

Not at 12C.

Plain and simple -- You live in a country with some very serious public health issues. Not the least of which are bogus colleges charging students for bogus degrees... who then become go on to charge other people for "medical" care that does not work.

How about this: Show us a study that homeopathy has cured hepatitis. This is a disease that is increasing rapidly in your country, there should be plenty of people who would like to be cured. Cure them, and then get back to us with verifiable results.
 
Hydrogen Cyanide said:
What I am saying (and this was answered to you several times by several people in several ways): You homeopathic notrums do NOT work...

Not at 30X...

Not at 6X...

and

Not at 12C.


Kindly tell us how?
 
Here's Rolfe's answer condensed for you AGAIN.

anor277 said:
Well, if we're actually going to address this, then no, as a blanket statement, I do not believe that "it works" at 6X or 12X or any other X come to that.

Why not?

Because the whole assumption that "like cures like" is a pack of nonsense based on a misunderstanding.

SNIP

"Like cures like" is an expression of a very ancient way of thinking called "sympathetic magic". It can be found running through the thinking and practice of almost all primitive peoples, and indeed it is so ingrained into the human psyche that even modern man finds himself thinking that way sometimes.

SNIP


However, at the very low potencies, that is under 24X and 12C, there are indeed some traces of the original mother tincture present. It would therefore be foolish to declare that it is entirely impossible that any such preparation could ever have any sort of physioogical effect. Especially right down at 6X, it's possible that certain individual preparations of particularly pharmacologically active substances might have an effect. For example, if you started with a highly concentrated mother tincture, I think you'd be very unwise to take a 6X preparation of potassium cyanide.

This is nevertheless not any sort of admission that "homeooapthy works" at these dilutions. Merely an observation that sometimes, with certain preparations, something might happen. Probably not that a disease would be cured though!

SNIP

DO YOU THEN AGREE THAT 30C PREPARATIONS DO NOT (AND CANNOT) WORK?

Rolfe.

__________________


What an excellent "straight" answer (which with your permission I would like to quote from please). Of course it would be amazing if the homeopathy proponents could be similarly concise and authoritative - that is if, as you say, they don't take it as an admission that homeopathy does work at molecular levels.
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