CSV FDR File was altered to make aircraft appear on southern approach

[BCR]

It is not impossible for the FDR to stop recording over 6 seconds away from the Pentagon with 1.5 DME recorded in the FDR. The FDR stores DME at a resolution of 0.25 NM, and the practical accuracy of DME where 77 was flying is at best 0.23 NM or worse. These errors alone allow 1.5 DME to be stored yet 77 is over 1.7 NM from DCA when 1.5 DME is stored. But I am only an experienced pilot heavy jet; and as an engineer I know modeling the errors in the DME from thwho flew left seat heavy jets in my twenties, Balsamo may never make it to the left seat e FDR allows 77 to be over 6 seconds away from the Pentagon and 1.5 DME is stored in the FDR. But a masters in engineering is all I have, maybe your p4t experts can model the DME errors and explain why I am wrong. They can’t. Why?

Now see, that is exactly what Rob tried to sell me two years ago. When I pointed out to him that one data point does not make a case, he went all cuckoo on me. Over and over I have presented solid analysis that indicate that the final DME value of 1.5 exhibits special cause features when compared to the entire DME data set. In other words, I focused on the thousand or so DME values that exhibit normal cause, and he wants to focus on the lone special cause point. Throw out the radar data because the DME value is 1.5 although modeling indicates it should be should be greater at that point in the flight path. Did AAL77 go supersonic for a short interval there at the end-of-flight?

I do not have to explain the special cause behind the final 1.5 DME value. I will leave that for the aeronautical guys to explore. I care about populations of data and determining what is normal for that population. If one guy wants to stand out from the crowd, then so be it. By the way, those two final RADES points are included in the GE model. However, just as another poster pointed out when I intentionally left in a similar radar return from the DCA set, it is not hard to figure out that they are not AAL77.

 

[WildCat]

If the magnetic declination was adjusted the wrong way (which would account for the end heading being 20 degrees off), then why was it correct at the beginning of the animation when it departed Dulles? What changed from the beginning of the animation to the end to reverse the magnetic declination value's sign?

I pesonally think the issue is moot, but I have yet to hear a valid hypothesis.

The landmarks, terrain, etc. in the animation are inserted manually, they are not generated automatically by software. Someone simply forgot to correct the heading at the end.

 

[SPreston]

[email protected]

BTW, is this the same CSV file that the PFT were touting proved f77 didnt hit the pentagon? now they say it was altered? does that mean f77 DID hit the pentagon now?

What's worse is this abject gibberish is dressed up in mildly sophisticated language. It's pseudoscience to the max, meant to mislead the stupid. It's worked.

What is going on here? I thought John Farmer was one of you guys now.

I am shocked to say the very least.

 

[WildCat]

What is going on here? I thought John Farmer was one of you guys now.

I am shocked to say the very least.

You may want to check the date of this thread.

But it's so sweet of you to come here to back up your hero Cap'n Bob.

 

[The Big Dog]

What is going on here? I thought John Farmer was one of you guys now.

I am shocked to say the very least.

Well now, SPreston, the gulf between what you think and what is true makes the Grand Canyon look like a drainage ditch.

I gotta hand it to you, though, you managed to post a response without 17 large format pictures, the errors in which you don't understand. Good on ya mate!

I also have to hand it to the No Planers at CIT and PFFTTT, they are persistent, aren't they?

 

[WildCat]

Oh look, Cap'n Bob (jryan1776) got banned again!

 

[lapman]

Perhaps they are calibration issues and the NTSB is simply incompetent. That seems to be the leading theory here at JREF. All I know is, I’ve talked to some real experts since I began my project and I still don’t have the answers and nor do they.

Nice counter-attack P4T

I don't think it's a competency issue. I think that since it was not an accident investigation, complete accuracy was not an issue. The animation was not made for the public, but for their own use to show the basic route that 77 took. I wouldn't be surprised if the person who made the animation did it because he has some free time on his hands and didn't care about accuracy.

 

[doobiedoright]

sure, start it up, I want to skip downwind, request a closed pattern...

Negative beachnut the pattern is full!

 

[Bobert]

So you think Farmer will admit his work on the csv file was "pseudoscience"? Think he will admit it was due to the fact he doesnt have a science education past the 9th grade as claimed by a JREFer on the first page?

Math? Why do you keep wanting to derail the topic?

Funny that you would say that considering neither Aldo nor Craig hold ANY COLLEGE DEGREE and neither have held any postiion where formal math and science are required.
Neither have ANY FORMAL TRAINING in ANYTHING related to aircraft, accident investigation, etc.
I could go on and on slick.
Nice try but you failed!

 

[Bobert]

We do? Been here before have you?

You seem to know a awful lot about this place and the people who post here.

Yes and you seemed very familiar with a thread that was buried in the past and had the determination to top it.
Do you take your orders from the PFT/CIT clown posse?

 

[Athyrio]

....Welcome to Ignore, "jryan1776," and I boldly predict you will not beat the odds.

No one has more cyber-lethal powers than you.

 

[beachnut]

I do not have to explain the special cause behind the final 1.5 DME value. ....

However, just as another poster pointed out when I intentionally left in a similar radar return from the DCA set, it is not hard to figure out that they are not AAL77.

Balsamo loves to use your working copies as facts against you.

The 1.5 DME recorded in the FDR is really the NM that your data shows it at as you refine where the last data was stored. There is a 0.25 NM resolution issue right off the bat, not to mention errors almost as high as 0.5 NM are in DME at close ranges. So your work is already possible based on the modeled errors of the DME system that Balsamo can't figure out.

This current Balsamo clone does the same thing, he will not discuss your work, he uses it to push the implied lies of Balsamo. Darn, Balsamo claims he has no theories, as his followers in stupid ideas push his ideas as facts, making them liars.

The depth of your research will leave p4t "experts" in the dust of ignorance.

 

[Darth Rotor]

John Farmer still maintains that the csv file was altered to show a south approach as he mentioned in a thread here a few days ago. His analysis was not triggered by or due to the "manipulation" of PFT or CIT. He came up with it all on his own and contacted/alerted Rob regarding same. Didnt you read the email?

Hi jryan and 911files:

A year and a half ago in San Antonio, Texas, I attended a wedding officiated by an Air Force Colonel chaplain. Would you like to know where he was on September 11, 2001?

He was at the Pentagon, working for the Air Force as chaplain manpower staff officer. He didn't get home that night until well after midnight. He didn't care to talk too much about that day, we were there for a joyous wedding occasion, but his wife was kind enough to tell me how rough that day was on him.

Your FDR snipe hunt is pointless. The plane hit the building. People died. You are attempting to sustain the slander against Captain Burlingame. I suggest you move on. Being wrong will do you no good.

By the way, see what Farmer says here:

I’m not sure if the controller requesting a heading of 270 means “magnetic” or “true” heading

It is mag.

Why he was unable to get that answer quickly in a quick peek into FAA.gov makes me wonder at his talent for research, but hopefully he found the correct answer at the end.

Magnetic headings is the standard when ATC and pilots talk on radios, to each other, in passing flying directions. Since wind is a variable, a heading may be assigned that is not identical to course, due to drift. Beachnut is already trying to explain simple stuff like this. Maybe if you get this from yet another source you'll realize beachnut isn't trying to misrepresent anything. He's trying to help dispell the stupid. Please correct your course to more degrees of true.

DR

 

[beachnut]

What is going on here? I thought John Farmer was one of you guys now.

I am shocked to say the very least.

What is holding you hostage in the pit of Balsamo p4t ignorance on 9/11? Lack of knowledge, or what Einstein said?

Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen

If you fail to see the facts and evidence in Farmer’s work, it is your own fault.

Work on that non-path; try some math.

 

[jaydeehess]

Here's the very odd thing about any supposedly altered FDR csv file.

The supposition is that it was altered to show a SoC flight path when the aircraft it was taken from actually flew NoC and over the Pentagon, or that it is a complete fabrication entirely(at least as gets within a few miles of the Pentagon)

So the people who managed to deceive hundreds of people into believeing that the plane they saw actually hit the Pentagon, the people who arranged for 'agents' to plant broken lamp posts, aircraft parts and human remains, somehow could not then alter an FDR file in such a way as to have it record data all the way into the Pentagon with DME and radalt data points that illustrate this all too clearly.

Instead they supposedly got real lazy and simply wiped the last several seconds out altogether while altering a few seconds prior to that.

The conundrum is then that the people in charge were absolutly bang on with the single most complex, real-time deception of having witnesses believe that the plane hit the Pentagon but utterly lazy/incompetant at arranging for an FDR that shows exactly what they wanted it to show. If they were that incompetant then the better course of action would have been to have the FDR so damaged as to render it useless as was the cockpit voice recorder.

I also note that although the TM claims that the phone calls were faked so well that the mothers and wives could not tell that it was not their loved on calling but this same technology apparently could not be applied to fake a cockpit voice recorder for AA77

 

[BCR]

What is going on here? I thought John Farmer was one of you guys now.

I am shocked to say the very least.

No SPreston, it is an arena of ideas, not some social club where people sip tea and make up lies about victims. Ideas are critically challenged and during the process people learn from one another. My mentor at DuPont was a Purdue graduate with a Chem E. background. I loved him dearly because he was passionate about his ideas and he was one of the few people who actually understood what I was doing. We would get on the big board slashing out ideas quite heatedly at times and on more than one occasion, everyone in the engineering department yelled from their cubicles for us to “shut up!” I always appreciated him and he never let me get away with anything (nor I he) which led to some very public meeting disruptions. In the end, the rivalry and debate produced some great things and we remain close friends. I see this forum in a similar light. I don’t expect anything less than good debate and intellectual challenges.

I don't think it's a competency issue. I think that since it was not an accident investigation, complete accuracy was not an issue. The animation was not made for the public, but for their own use to show the basic route that 77 took. I wouldn't be surprised if the person who made the animation did it because he has some free time on his hands and didn't care about accuracy.

Lapman, I am more interested in the data behind the animation, not the animation. That is why I said the issue was moot in my opinion. P4T makes some nice animations now too, but the math and physics behind them leaves me wanting.

Hi jryan and 911files:

A year and a half ago in San Antonio, Texas, I attended a wedding officiated by an Air Force Colonel chaplain. Would you like to know where he was on September 11, 2001?

He was at the Pentagon, working for the Air Force as chaplain manpower staff officer. He didn't get home that night until well after midnight. He didn't care to talk too much about that day, we were there for a joyous wedding occasion, but his wife was kind enough to tell me how rough that day was on him.

Your FDR snipe hunt is pointless. The plane hit the building. People died. You are attempting to sustain the slander against Captain Burlingame. I suggest you move on. Being wrong will do you no good.

By the way, see what Farmer says here: It is mag.

Why he was unable to get that answer quickly in a quick peek into FAA.gov makes me wonder at his talent for research, but hopefully he found the correct answer at the end.

Magnetic headings is the standard when ATC and pilots talk on radios, to each other, in passing flying directions. Since wind is a variable, a heading may be assigned that is not identical to course, due to drift. Beachnut is already trying to explain simple stuff like this. Maybe if you get this from yet another source you'll realize beachnut isn't trying to misrepresent anything. He's trying to help dispell the stupid. Please correct your course to more degrees of true.
DR

Darth Rotor, with all due respect, I admit my ignorance in some areas and search out the best advice. Unfortunately, even with the best, advice can be erroneous. My project is NOT a snipe hunt. I have no axe to grind with anyone except to understand what happened at the Pentagon on September 11, 2001. You talked to a USAF Chaplin who was there, and if you want to base what you think on what he said, then that is up to you. However, it was the Army and Navy that took the hit, and I have taken the time to talk with as many of them as possible, the police and EMS people who responded and as many others as I possibly can. So please don’t lecture me on how people died at the Pentagon. I was there at the opening of the Memorial and I stood crying over Zoe Falkenberg’s marker for quite some time.

Yes Rotor, I know the heading is given in magnetic. I did not know that two years ago, but I know that now. But more important to me than personal attacks and other nonsense in forums is that we have a system of government which is accountable to the people. As long as government agencies are withholding information regarding that event, I will be attempting to get it. Why? Because as a free people, we remain free only when the private sector is looking over what their government does. If you are happy with the NTSB data, then I don’t begrudge you that at all. I am not however and I will not stop until I fill in the blanks. That is not to say that 911 was an “inside job”. It is just to say that I don’t understand why the NTSB released three data files, each with totally different positional indicators. I have a good feel now for what the actual flight path was, and the remaining issues none of you can resolve, only the NTSB can.

 

[Bobert]

Hi jryan and 911files:

This was a very good poist!

 

[Baylor]

He was about to pwn us all with his math but a second before he hit the 'post reply' button, he got banned again. 0 for 2.

 

[Bobert]

What is going on here? I thought John Farmer was one of you guys now.

I am shocked to say the very least.

I take it you mean 99.99999999999% of humanity when you say "you guys"?

 

[Bobert]

LMAO!!!!!
Oh man jryan was Turboflop?
Oh man they try to get out but something just keeps dragging them back in!

Oh well time for another meeting at the treefort^TM CIT!!