Continuation Part II - Cold Fusion Claims

[Giordano]

I peeked at the E-cat World website and they are now hawking a permanent cell phone power source, a PowerCube, which never needs recharging (offered by "Stoern's Orbo"). http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2015/10/new_video_reveals_internals_of_orbo_powe.html

Soon to be released of course (at multiple thousands of euros per cell phone, and they are taking advance orders now), and it will change civilization. In reading the explanation of how it works, just like the cold fusion devices, I find it interesting that so much of what they say goes against the physics I learned in college and since then. But the buzz words are there that would make it sound all very scientific if one did not have any science background. So either I must assume that it is all so very advanced that the contradictions I see would not appear to be contradictions if I was a more highly educated physicists (or perhaps so highly advanced that even highly educated physicists would not get it), or that it is just word salad to convince unsophisticated investors.

I generally distrust statements about facts where the more you know about facts the more the statement looks like bs, but perhaps if I knew more I would be writing them a check.

 

[Horatius]

I peeked at the E-cat World website and they are now hawking a permanent cell phone power source, a PowerCube, which never needs recharging (offered by "Stoern's Orbo"). http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/2015/10/new_video_reveals_internals_of_orbo_powe.html

Wow, how amazing! A device with a lithium ion battery built into it can power an iPad! Sign me up!!

 

[ben m]

Pretty amazing that you can claim in one breath, essentially, "we've overturned the laws of physics and discovered an inexhaustible energy source", which you'd think would be a big deal in a world where conventional energy sources are destroying the climate, and in the next breath

When asked whether Orbo could be scaled up to power cars, Shaun says, "Not by us. We would make no money powering cars. It's not a lucrative market." He asserts that Ford makes less money from each car sold than Apple makes from each iPhone sold. "It's not on our radar, because money is what we're attempting to do right now."

Oh, good.

 

[pteridine]

The reason that I asked about the experiments that show gamma as a product of a transformation is that many nuclear experiments involve colliding individual nuclei. Maybe the energy is released as gamma because there are no other options. When 10^23 atoms are involved, there may be other mechanisms in play.

 

[tsig]

The reason that I asked about the experiments that show gamma as a product of a transformation is that many nuclear experiments involve colliding individual nuclei. Maybe the energy is released as gamma because there are no other options. When 10^23 atoms are involved, there may be other mechanisms in play.

Which is more likely the laws of physics are wrong or he's a con man*.

*proven.

 

[Craig B]

Which is more likely the laws of physics are wrong or he's a con man*.

*proven.

Which is more likely? That the laws of physics are wrong or that Rossi, having been convicted as a conman at least once before, should have returned yet again to his old scams.

 

[Giordano]

The reason that I asked about the experiments that show gamma as a product of a transformation is that many nuclear experiments involve colliding individual nuclei. Maybe the energy is released as gamma because there are no other options. When 10^23 atoms are involved, there may be other mechanisms in play.

I may be misunderstanding your point. If you are simply indicating that somehow fusion of multiple nuclei at once might release energies though other than gamma, wouldn't the typical H-bomb argue against this? Further, this is a nuclear transition and if not releasing energies through emission of a gamma photon or other radiation, I think it would have to represent a very different physics that the one currently accepted.

 

[ben m]

The reason that I asked about the experiments that show gamma as a product of a transformation is that many nuclear experiments involve colliding individual nuclei. Maybe the energy is released as gamma because there are no other options. When 10^23 atoms are involved, there may be other mechanisms in play.

If we're in the business of just making stuff up, why bother talking about nuclei? Maybe Rossi's reactor teleports nuclei silently to the Phantom Zone, where they're fused in Superman's super-grip, and he then sends his super-eye-beams through a dimensional porthole to return the energy to us. Any inconsistencies in the experiments results from Superman being busy and careless sometimes.

If we're NOT making stuff up: no, there is no mechanism for getting nuclear energy into other forms. Nuclei are quantum systems, they have excited states, and the nature of those excited states is inseparable from statements like "63Cu has a lower energy than 62Ni and a proton". Nothing in the known world, nothing in Rossi's or Cook's imagination, nothing in yours.

 

[Aepervius]

If we're in the business of just making stuff up, why bother talking about nuclei? Maybe Rossi's reactor teleports nuclei silently to the Phantom Zone, where they're fused in Superman's super-grip, and he then sends his super-eye-beams through a dimensional porthole to return the energy to us. Any inconsistencies in the experiments results from Superman being busy and careless sometimes.

If we're NOT making stuff up: no, there is no mechanism for getting nuclear energy into other forms. Nuclei are quantum systems, they have excited states, and the nature of those excited states is inseparable from statements like "63Cu has a lower energy than 62Ni and a proton". Nothing in the known world, nothing in Rossi's or Cook's imagination, nothing in yours.

At least Black Light Power made up new states . "hydrogen has a lower state than the ground state in which it falls into that's hydrinos" (paraphrased). Rossi just pretend he is fusing stuff which should not fuse and that without emission of any particle whatsoever.

 

[The Moog]

I have a question, back in 2012 Rossi stated :

“Yes, Leonardo Corp is very much powerful now. I can already say that the first 1 MW hot cat will go in operation within February 2013. It will not be a military application, therefore selected persons will be allowed to visit it. It will be installed in a big power production and distribution plant...

Where is this power plant? Who has visited it? This would be very impressive if they could show several years continuous running on this power plant.
Why has Rossi made up so many stories over the years?

Back in 2011 pteridine gave us this :

Andrea Rossi is an inventor and engineer. He does not know why the reaction works-- he only knows that excess heat is released. Being a practical experimenter, when he had built a working model he used it to heat three rooms in his facility when he owned EON, SRL where he made biodiesel powered gen sets.
The unit ran for an entire heating season on a single charge and this ruled out chemical reactions. At this point the physics is speculative but many are theorizing about possibilities. The many experiments pointing toward the reality of LENR are slowly converging and I expect that over the next few years, key aspects of the process will be understood and this will become an impoprtant energy source.

Well, it's 5 years later and so far all we have are patents with no details on the supposed "process". And more stories of course.
Is Rossi's facility still being run by this heater pteridine?

 

[pteridine]

The 1MW plant has been operating since last February producing steam.

EON srl has been sold and the small prototype unit has been removed. Rossi's company modified MAN diesel generator sets [750kw to run on biofuels.]

Rossi was cleared of wrongdoing or he would not have been able to get a green card.

The delay in commercialization is the result of 'due diligence' by the investors. I have been associated with lesser technical developments and things always take longer than expected. Run-of-the-mill tweaks and minor incremental improvements go relatively quickly but major technology improvements have more roadblocks and delays. This would be a world-changing discovery.
Many companies are now preparing for the possibility that the device works and are taking out insurance patents. There are also some extortion patents being filed by others.

 

[Craig B]

The 1MW plant has been operating since last February producing steam.

Evidence? For whom is it working? Where? Who has seen it operating?

Does "producing steam" mean that it is in normal use, or is this a sample Rossi keeps for his shows?

 

[Giordano]

Human psychology is fascinating. If someone came up to the average person and said "I have ten dollars in my pocket. Give me 5 and I will give you the ten" the average person would be very suspicious and would want to see the actual money and arrange some sort of simultaneous swap before agreeing to the deal. And ten dollar bills certainly exist, so it is physically quite possible.

Yet if you propose a fancy device that violates huge chunks of known science, where all the red flags of scams are displayed (repeated promises to achieve goals that are never achieved over multiple years, explanations that use only buzz words that scientists see as meaningless word salad, the "we have made wonderful progress and the payoff is just months away," etc.), and inventors who not for 5 dollars, but for thousands or millions of dollars, then many people are lining up to invest.

It is the concept of the "Big Lie;" people are often more willing to believe a big lie than a small one.

 

[pteridine]

Evidence? For whom is it working? Where? Who has seen it operating?

Does "producing steam" mean that it is in normal use, or is this a sample Rossi keeps for his shows?

It is producing steam continuously. I have seen it working.

 

[Craig B]

It is producing steam continuously. I have seen it working.

That doesn't answer any of my questions. Please read them again, and if you can't answer because of confidentiality issues, please say so. You know the kind of things we need to know. What does "producing steam continuously" mean? Is it heating or powering some industrial or commercial operation, in normal use? Where is it? Who owns it?

But you can envisage the data one needs to verify your statemements.

 

[pteridine]

I am still puzzled about the "laws of physics" comments. You have not seen 'Dark matter' but there it is, repelling regular matter in an explanation of an observed phenomenon. What laws might that be violating? Quantum entanglement experiments say that something strange is happening. Where are the laws of physics when you need them to untangle things?
Rossi is not saying anything so radical, only that under the conditions of his experiment, heat is produced that is not chemical. Certainly, if the phenomenon is proved to be real, it will keep everyone busy trying to figure out what is going on. I expect that another mechanism for energy release will be found under the conditions of the experiment.

If I have two atoms of a radioactive element, which one will disintegrate first?

 

[Craig B]

If I have two atoms of a radioactive element, which one will disintegrate first?

If you keep tossing two coins, which one will land first on "heads"?

 

[pteridine]

That doesn't answer any of my questions. Please read them again, and if you can't answer because of confidentiality issues, please say so. You know the kind of things we need to know. What does "producing steam continuously" mean? Is it heating or powering some industrial or commercial operation, in normal use? Where is it? Who owns it?

But you can envisage the data one needs to verify your statemements.

My NDA precludes me from providing all the details you ask for. The steam is used as steam in an over-the-fence operation in the United States. The purchaser of the steam uses it in their plant vice using a steam generator as they have no process heat. The temperature is about 110*C. The unit, as configured, is roughly 4 m^3 in volume, including all of the generation and condensate return lines, valving, etc. but not including the computer control system.
More information has been publically exposed of late , e.g., LiAlH4 works as well or better than gaseous H2. Other transition elements that are capable of dissolving significant amounts of hydrogen also work. I do not know if liquid phase elements work. I suspect not because of lack of grain boundaries [electric field potential] and solubility of H2, but do not know for sure.

 

[pteridine]

If you keep tossing two coins, which one will land first on "heads"?

So we do not know enough about nuclear stability to predict which will disintegrate and the sample is statistically small enough to say that neither or both will disintegrate in some time.

 

[Aepervius]

The 1MW plant has been operating since last February producing steam.

EON srl has been sold and the small prototype unit has been removed. Rossi's company modified MAN diesel generator sets [750kw to run on biofuels.]

Rossi was cleared of wrongdoing or he would not have been able to get a green card.

The delay in commercialization is the result of 'due diligence' by the investors. I have been associated with lesser technical developments and things always take longer than expected. Run-of-the-mill tweaks and minor incremental improvements go relatively quickly but major technology improvements have more roadblocks and delays. This would be a world-changing discovery.
Many companies are now preparing for the possibility that the device works and are taking out insurance patents. There are also some extortion patents being filed by others.

There is no evidence whatsoever that it uses fusion. In fact - if it exists - I am betting it uses "control" tri phased strong current to slow the reaction (LOL).