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Continuation Part II - Cold Fusion Claims

That is wrong, pteridine.
We take great delight in pointing out that a crank like Rossi exists because the basics of the scientific (and rational!) world have not been met by his "experiments". No valid proof that he is anything but a fraudster fooling people into giving him money and time has been presented.

It is insanely ignorant to think that an actual nuclear reaction happened in his apparatus as you already know from the posts in this thread, pteridine.

A rant about "high priests of physics" does not help your or Rossi's case.

Of course you are all knowing and, not being too insanely ignorant, can reassure the world that there can be no nuclear reaction of any sort occurring in Rossi's apparatus even though your slightly insane partially ignorant part may have doubts. I recommend that you weasel a bit just in case Rossi has done what he says he has. If you are wrong, it will spoil your perfect record.

As to the high priests comment, that was as a result of a few derisive comments regarding Norman Cook because he was not a pedigreed physicist. Those making the comments apparently did not read the book.

As had been said on many occasions, only Monarchs, Editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we.'
 
I understand that this is uncomfortable for those that think they have nuclear reactions completely covered and do not like upstarts like Rossi and Norman Cook treading on hallowed ground that is only accessible to the high priests of physics. Norman's book does make sense and seems to explain nuclear structure better than the liquid drop model. It is well referenced and is a nice read. The second edition is more pertinent to Rossi but either will explain his concept of nuclear structure.

It's very easy to write a "well-referenced, nice read" which is 100% and irredeemably wrong. If that is what Cook has done, I don't know why he should get credit for it? What an odd metric. I hear that "Of Pandas And People" is a well-referenced, nice read too. I have dozens of books on my office shelf that contradict Cook and they are also "well-referenced, nice reads".

Anyway, no, Cook's work does not "seem to explain nuclear structure" better than any model whatsoever, certainly not the (ultra-approximate) liquid drop model. I've seen his book and it does not have any predictive power whatsoever. Here is what he appears to be doing: If a real-world nuclear physicist tells him what is known about a real-world nuclear state, he can wave his hands and draw a picture and claim that he's "explained" that state. Here is what he is not doing: taking his theory and using seeing what it says nuclei must do, then checking the data to see if that's right. Even in the domain Cook seems to care about, i.e. nuclear state counting, this approach is so useless it may as well be numerology. Outside of that domain, the theory is just flat-out false. Most obviously, high-energy electron-nucleus scattering data DOES NOT show the wacky diffraction pattern that Cook's lattice theory obviously predicts.
 
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Of course you are all knowing ...
A meaningless rant does not prevent actual nuclear physics from existing, pteridine :jaw-dropp!
My area of expertise is solid state physics but when a working nuclear physicists (ben m) points out that Rossi is deluded abut Ni turning into Cu, I believe him. I also checked the facts to confirm that Rossi is deluded about this.

For example: 12th April 2015 ben m explains (again I think) how ignorant Rossi is about nuclear physics and that he seems to depend on Norman Cook's crank book.

This was in response to you posting a link to the preprint On the Nuclear Mechanisms Underlying the Heat Production by the E-Cat by Norman D. Cook, Andrea Rossi - still unpublished and not cited after 8 months!
Norman D. Cook (Department of Informatics, Kansai University, Osaka, 1095-569, Japan) - a informatics expert with "Quantum Nucleodynamics" idiocy that cartoon models are real.
 
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Most obviously, high-energy electron-nucleus scattering data DOES NOT show the wacky diffraction pattern that Cook's lattice theory obviously predicts.



I think this is a key point a lot of "alternate science" believers don't quite get. It's that science doesn't exist in a vacuum.

If our current understanding of nuclear physics was so wrong that these other theories could be correct, then there'd be lots of examples of phenomenon that are completely different from the predictions made by the theories. Not just, "Maybe we're off by a fraction of a percent in some outlying cases" type wrong, but clearly, obvious to anyone who looks, type wrong.

In fact, we have several examples of just that in the history of science, and those theories lost out to the new ones. The geocentric model of the solar system simply could not explain the differences in phases of planets closer to the Sun than Earth, as opposed to the appearances of planets farther away. Once we had the tools to see the planets clearly, it was obvious that we were wrong. It took a bit of time to come up with something better, because we are only human, but we did it.

So, if current nuclear physics is that wrong, where are the obviously wrong predictions? We have many such obviously wrong predictions for the alternative theories (see above, and pretty much any other thread we've had on such topics), so where are the equivalents for current nuclear physics?
 
The geocentric model of the solar system simply could not explain the differences in phases of planets closer to the Sun than Earth, as opposed to the appearances of planets farther away. Once we had the tools to see the planets clearly, it was obvious that we were wrong. It took a bit of time to come up with something better, because we are only human, but we did it.
A slight objection here. Copernicus published in 1536, and the "tools" became available in 1609.
 
So, if current nuclear physics is that wrong, where are the obviously wrong predictions? We have many such obviously wrong predictions for the alternative theories (see above, and pretty much any other thread we've had on such topics), so where are the equivalents for current nuclear physics?

Why would you think that current nuclear physics is "that wrong?" Rossi does not claim that physics is wrong. He is only trying to explain his results.
 
Why would you think that current nuclear physics is "that wrong?"
You really do not know that according to current nuclear physics, cold fusion and LENR are physically impossible, pteridine :jaw-dropp!
The point is that if nuclear physics were so wrong that cold fusion or LENR were possible then it would make obviously wrong predictions. For example why does hot fusion work as predicted?

Rossi's fantasies about physics do not explain anything, even his possibly faked results.
 
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Why would you think that current nuclear physics is "that wrong?" Rossi does not claim that physics is wrong. He is only trying to explain his results.



Because it would be! Haven't you been paying any attention? Not only does it not predict these reactions, but it does predict things that we don't see, like massive outputs of deadly radiation, if there are nuclear reactions happening.

And it's not just nuclear physics that would be wrong. We've got a pretty good understanding of electrostatics, that predicts that nuclei simply can't get close enough together to fuse without being really hot. Even with the notion of the electron shells being shielded in the metal matrices used, the math just doesn't work out. If LENR is right, our understanding of electrostatics is wrong. And it just goes on. As I said, these theories don't exist in a vacuum; they interact, changing one has implications for all of them, large and small. This is why paradigm-changing new theories are actually quite rare.
 
Because it would be! Haven't you been paying any attention? Not only does it not predict these reactions, but it does predict things that we don't see, like massive outputs of deadly radiation, if there are nuclear reactions happening.

I have ADD.

What physical experiments determined that there would be massive outputs of deadly radiation?
 
I have ADD.

What physical experiments determined that there would be massive outputs of deadly radiation?

All of the experiments which carried out Ni-H fusion, Li-H fusion, and all of the reactions that Rossi has at various times invoked. Experiments studying the excited states of Cu isotopes. We know how much energy is present in a Ni-H fusion, we know the complete list of possible particles that can take up that energy (in addition to the daughter Cu nucleus), and everything on that list precisely "massive outputs of deadly radiation". (Ni and H will fuse just fine if you shoot them at each other in an accelerator. Journ.: Voprosy Atomnoy Nauki i Tekhniki, Seriya Obshch. Vol.2/16, p.37 is the first reference in Exfors, the standard nuclear-reaction experiment database, for 60Ni(p,gamma) reaction measurements specifically showing the gamma emissions.)

You were just telling us that:

Rossi does not claim that physics is wrong.

Yes he does---or, more precisely, he doesn't care. If he can profit from people thinking he's proven physics wrong, he'll tell them that. If he can profit from people thinking LENR is standard physics, he'll tell them that. Or both! Or neither!

But, no, "nuclear fusion occurs, but it converts 5 MeV of strong binding energy into low-frequency nonpenetrating mystery energy that nobody can detect except as heat" is the same thing as saying "physics is wrong".
 
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I think this is a key point a lot of "alternate science" believers don't quite get. It's that science doesn't exist in a vacuum. <brevity snip>
Exactly. This is something the woo peddlers simply can't grasp, because they understand so little of real science; if there was sufficient "leeway" in physics to allow the convicted fraudster Rossi's claims to be true, then there would be vast numbers of other detectable effects.

Why would you think that current nuclear physics is "that wrong?" Rossi does not claim that physics is wrong. He is only trying to explain his results.
His claimed results violate physics as it has been demonstrated to operate.
But then he's lying to fleece the gullible. Again.
 
(much snipped)

I am aware that many on this board take great delight in attacking Rossi because their demands for detailed proof have not been satisfied.

Yes. This is a skeptics forum. It's kinda what we do.
 
I have ADD.

What physical experiments determined that there would be massive outputs of deadly radiation?


Right, it's clear now that you're not paying attention. Read ben m's post above, he reiterates things that have been said before in these threads, which you either skimmed over, or have chosen to forget.

And yet, you believe it is everyone else in the thread who are "uncomfortable" with dealing with claims we don't agree with.
 
We know how much energy is present in a Ni-H fusion, we know the complete list of possible particles that can take up that energy (in addition to the daughter Cu nucleus), and everything on that list precisely "massive outputs of deadly radiation".



"Have you heard about the problem with Pons' and Fleischmann's grad student?"

"No, what's wrong?"

"He's in perfect health"


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
What experiment actually shows Rossi producing extra power?

There are "experiment" which shows extra power. Note the scary quote. There is no "properly controlled independent experiment" showing power though. Rossi is always there preparing the setup. If I was to do persiflage I would say that the wire are not only controlling temperature but some of them are "juicy" ;).
 
Oh, right, the "wires" being plugged in to "control temperature", that's some nice physical-law-violation too. Rossi is very happy to emphasize "temperature control" in the context of explaining why his device can't be unplugged ... but his interest in temperature control completely vanishes when it's time to try to explain the "reactions", or study them, or when he builds different versions of his device designed for wildly different temperatures, etc.

Here's why Rossi's control claim violates the laws of physics. Imagine there were some reaction which generated power. How much power does it generate? Let's say P(T). (It is very generally the case that P(T) increases monotonically with temperature, but we don't need to assume that. There are weird exceptions, like pebble bed reactors. Rossi's claims violate the laws of physics no matter what P(T) looks like.)

OK, so you put your P(T) source into a canister which also, when it heats up, has some natural cooling power C(T)---it might be conductive (so C(T) = -a(T-T0)) or convective (so C(T) = -a(T-T0)^2 or thereabouts) or radiative (C(T) = -a(T^4- T0^4)). Notice these are all perfectly monotonic.

So, if we specify a temperature, we can compute the total power. If the P(T) + C(T) > 0, that means the reaction power exceeds the cooling power, and starting from this temperature the device will heat up. If P(T) + C(T) < 0, the reaction power is less than the cooling power, and starting from this temperature the device will cool down. "Maintaining temperature" happens only at zero crossings, where input and output power are matched. But notice that *if* P(T) + C(T) has a positive slope, the process is unstable---you heat up a little, that takes you to a temperature where you're heating up even faster, etc. (Or you cool a little, that takes you to a temperature where you cool faster.) If the P(T) + C(T) curve has a negative slope at the zero crossing, then the reaction is stable. Go ahead, invent a curve for P(T) + C(T).

Rossi's "stabilization" claim is that he's adding additional power R(T), in some way that varies with temperature, that turns the unstable reaction into a stable one. But we're restricted in how we can do that. R(T) is by definition positive---you can only add power, not subtract it, with a resistor plugged into a cable. You can only stabilize a system via additive power, then, if P(T) + C(T) start off negative. You can then add a steeply-falling (R(T)) and bring the low-temperature end of the curve up past zero at some setpoint TH of your choice. There you go, you've added a zero-crossing and stabilized the system.

But that is 100% inconsistent with what Rossi says his system is doing. He says that the resistors bring the reactor into a self-heating mode with P(T)+C(T) > 0. Sorry, Rossi, if your physical system enters a self-heating mode (P(T)+C(T) > 0) then it is completely impossible to "stabilize" the system by adding more heat R(T), no matter what the control circuit is doing.

Maybe at higher temperatures P(T) drops with temperature, or rises more slowly than C(T) does. That can bring in a negative-slope zero-crossing and the system can self-stabilize. If that's what it does, then Rossi is lying about needing a control circuit. If P(T) and C(T) combine to give you a negative slope, there's no need for R(T) to be plugged in---the only thing it can possibly do is push the setpoint a little higher.

I invite the reader---even pteridine---to try to invent any curve whatsoever for the nuclear-physics-reaction-rate P(T), and show that it corresponds to Rossi's claims:
  • P(T) > C(T) for some range of temperatures (i.e., Rossi's claim that the reactor "heats itself")
  • P(T) - C(T) does not have a zero crossing at a safe temperature (i.e., Rossi's claim that the reactor "would melt down" if the input were unplugged) and
  • We can add some control signal R(T) such that P(T)-C(T)+R(T) has a zero crossing (i.e. Rossi's claim that the input provides "stability")

As usual, either Rossi is lying about at least some experimental results, or his process violates laws of physics far more disturbing than "he discovered a new nuclear reaction."
 
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