Commentary: Discussion on Mormonism

Accodring to the Mormons, a boy wanted to know which of all of this confusion was true and he asked God directly and got an answer that it was all created by man. I guess this post is probably throwing a lot onto the fire but it's just a dump of my thoughts.

So he's the only one who got magic plates of gold and a seeing stone? He's the only kid who wanted to know the right truth in the right way to get the real truth and not the fake one that all those with similar sincerity got... or nothing? What about women... why don't they ever seem to get these truths or be prophets, gods, or revealers of revelation? They kill less people... oppress less... don't covet their neighbors wives...

What about all the eons of people before Joe Smith-- not one of them prayed sincerely enough? And all the people after.... the billions who prayed to know the truth and got a real answer-- they spoke in tongues, or castrated themselves, or drank koolaid, or gave away all their possessions or experienced a "miracle"-- they were a sure as you were... so many are... and yet the thing they "know" is different. It's just so prosaic and simple minded. It's like believing you had a dream that the rain gods gave you the secret to the rain dances that pleased them.... and it then it rained for days... so you spend your life teaching people the rain dances and when it doesn't rain you tell them to practice harder or their faith is wrong or the rain gods are mysterious and do and we aren't supposed to question them... or they need to dance more... or give testimony... or add a new step...

it's just soooooo.....

primitive and error prone... and quaint... if not, sad.
 
I don't know. You don't know either. I guess you can throw it all away because it just seems too quaint or whatever.
 
I don't know. You don't know either. I guess you can throw it all away because it just seems too quaint or whatever.

Yes, but when I don't know... and you don't know that doesn't mean the Pope or Prophet or those who speak in tongues do either. It just means that there are things that people claim to know that they cannot know. Just because there are two options-- Zeus or no Zeus... doesn't mean that both are equally likely. There are some things we know for certain... some religions are made up... some gods and prophets are false... many people have felt they know things that they were wrong about (most people assumed the world was flat and that earth was the center of it for example)-- the only way we have to fix errors in thought is through accumulated evidence and scientific testing...

We know very much about the various ways people can misperceive the world and we learn more about such quirks all the time. We know the most common ways to brainwash people or influence their thinking. We know about confirmation bias and how to take advantage of it and how to protect against it (double blind studies for example)-- There are a lot of things we do know, and in science we use that to find further knowledge. Faith based notions take a supposed truth and then give you the fact anecdotes, emotional tricks and the like so you are convinced. But real truths are true whether you believe them or not. They are not afraid of scrutiny. We had DNA in our blood even as we imagined that god was working behind the scenes building bodies.... we had DNA before any god or gold plate ever mentioned it.

We have eons of people claiming prophesy and revelation and "higher truths" but no evidence that such truths exist. We have lots of evidence that humans lie, confabulate, misperceive and that some are schizophrenic... no old scriptures seemed to know anything about the latter.

I just think that you have managed to fool yourself as people have been doing for eons... as I have done-- because humans evolved to trust those in authority and sometimes those people are mistaken.

Clearly you know this is true in regards to other religions... how can you presume it's not true for your own? Do you think they are "quaint" or do you think these religions are as likely as yours? The evidence is the same, you know-- and none of it is measurable or replicable or testable. Inner knowingness is worth diddly squat when it comes to understanding reality. You can believe the moon is made of cheese to the extent that you sell all your possessions to prove it. It still doesn't make it so.
 
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I get what you're saying. I was saying I don't know about other people's experiences. I do know about my own. I am a skeptic and demand proof of things before I believe them, just like others here. I have received subjective evidence that proves some things to me and that's fine. You can assume that it's delusion but your assumption is not based on fact. You have no proof that internal evidence is worth diddly squat. You have examples where it's worth diddly squat and I agree with you on that but that doesn't mean all internal evidence is worthless. I could give you examples of where evidence gained through science or the five senses was worth diddly squat so why don't you throw it all away too? It's a double standard.
 
I get what you're saying. I was saying I don't know about other people's experiences. I do know about my own. I am a skeptic and demand proof of things before I believe them, just like others here. I have received subjective evidence that proves some things to me and that's fine. You can assume that it's delusion but your assumption is not based on fact. You have no proof that internal evidence is worth diddly squat. You have examples where it's worth diddly squat and I agree with you on that but that doesn't mean all internal evidence is worthless. I could give you examples of where evidence gained through science or the five senses was worth diddly squat so why don't you throw it all away too? It's a double standard.

No. It's not a double standard... it's the exact same standard you use in regards to your assessment of people having inner knowingness about things that you know are incorrect-- those who have feelings they describe as identical to yours that you feel are wrong, mistaken, delusional, untrue, or maybe even demon inspired. I don't have proof that Charles Manson was not a prophet-- he claimed to be.... I do have a pretty good understanding of schizophrenia, however. I don't have proof that anyone's claims of alien visitation are true, but I have enough knowledge about how someone might believe such things though it's false... as well as knowledge about how science would be likely to detect and expand upon any part of these claims that we could measure or use or clarify--any part that could be true or useful or that interacts with the environment.

I have the same standard in regards to your beliefs that you have to all other beliefs that you feel are mistaken. That is not a double standard. Just a common sense observation. Lots of humans think they know truths that they cannot know... lots of people are wrong about what they believe to be true.

That's a supportable and testable claim. Faith based claims are not. Are feelings good ways to know "truths"? There is NO evidence to suggest so.
Is faith a good way to convince people they KNOW a "higher truth"-- indeed, it's been invented again and again through the eons. People like to feel like they are in on the secrets of the universe.
 
The only way I have to distinguish your truth from all the other truths of the people who come here or try to convince me is to look at facts--the facts that are the same for everybody. Otherwise, I have to trust my feelings on the subject and some people trusting their feelings are clearly mistaken in a very big way.

Lots of humans believed that the earth was flat and could make as convincing an argument as you... lots of humans believe in and die for religions or beliefs that cannot be true... lots of gods are made up--

Not all such beliefs can be true... but all CAN be false. Sure,science and evidence can't always lead to the truth (the one that is the same for everyone like the spherical earth), but I"m not sure faith, feeling or revelation ever have. I suspect a lot of guys assume their beliefs are "the truth"--aren't all soldiers sure they are on the good guys side... I think men believe because it makes them feel chosen and "right" and women believe because they are afraid of the consequence of doubt (see Eve). But belief isn't consistent or measurable or salvation worthy as far as I can tell... and wanting something to be true or being afraid that it isn't true doesn't change the truth a bit. An answer might feel better than not-knowing... but that means that believing a lie trumps not knowing too. Skeptics tend to stick with not knowing until the evidence is convincing... and measurable.
 
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You know Joseph Smith is a prophet and Muslims know Muhummmad was prophet and North Koreans believe Kim Jong Il to be a prophet and maatorc believes ESP is real and many people know reincarnation is real and Sylvia Browne has tons of people convinced of her divine gifts...

Don't you see the problem... and the arrogance with your presumption that they must not want to know the real truth while you just happened to stumble upon it? I see you through the same eyes as you so the examples above, and you've given us nothing to show us your "knowingness" is different. We have lots of people coming here certain they have some truth we must be exposed to-- but they never have actual evidence... just the manipulative suggestions that managed to convince them. Many of us have already felt what you have felt-- and realized that we had fooled ourselves.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your religion and the support you offer for it is as laughable as Scientology. Do you find them laughable? Why or why not? Why should we respect your inner feelings more than theirs. Aren't Tom Cruise and John Travolta more successful than you? Don't you realize that many people think it's immoral to spawn as the Mormons do when the earth is already filled to capacity...? I really believe that you believe your feelings reveal truth-- but I believe that Tom Cruise is equally sure of his faith.
 
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It is also odd, because after I was convinced that my brand of Christianity was not the correct route, my prayer became much like Joseph Smith's ("Which denomination is right? Point me in the right direction.") I wonder why his prayer was supposedly answered, and mine wasn't. I can assure you I was quite sincere, as my entire world seemed to be falling apart around me.

Okay - very good question. Why was his prayer answered and not many other people's in his time or before? The best answer I can think of is that Joseph Smith was preordained before birth to be a prophet, that God knew the future since the creation of the Earth, that Joseph would be born in America, and had the qualities to be a prophet. He was chosen. In other words, Joseph Smith was *meant* to get an answer and to restore God's true Church.

Now going back to you for a second - do you believe that God intentionally made it so that there's actually a specific process which is necessary for people to find him?

I know the belief is that the church was corrupted fairly quickly, but is this based on some sort of evidence, or just on the fact that we can't find Mormon practices in the early church records?

There's no evidence, apart from what's already been mentioned in the Bible and perhaps non-canon Gospels (I've never read any, so). Again, faith plays an important part here, and the only way to find out is through revelation, a confirmation from God.

Why would God nitpick? What is the thought process there? "Wow, prewitt81 is really having a hard time with his faith. If only he knew the secret special prayer. Oh well, back to making sure the Cubs don't win another pennant!" ;)

Perhaps to prove that you are serious about being open minded to the possibility that the LDS Church may be his Church. That you are indeed serious about finding God and his authority?

I'm sure someone else has made this point, but has every Muslim been fooled? Has every Catholic been fooled? Have all those who have converted to Pentecostalism in Africa been fooled? I would answer yes to all of the above.

Maybe - who knows? Satan intentionally tries to fool everyone. Confuse people - which is right? Maybe none of them are, and that's what Satan wants you think. Okay, so putting that aside for a moment - I believe that all genuine religions that are not God's church might have partial truths, but not all of it.

If I were "God", I would love my creation enough to give revelation to everyone instead of a few shady, untrustworthy characters. Or, if I was adamant about letting people decide for themselves, I would not make the stakes so high if they made the wrong choice.

Actually, God is making it difficult for a very good reason, I think. Being a god means having to deal with very difficult choices. Preparing for godhood is not meant to be a walk in the park, so to speak. Since God wants his children to be like him (i.e., be a god like him), he created this world and the conditions therein so the really worthy ones will have proven themselves *capable* of handling difficult decisions and of being able to love all people, and thus become gods and goddesses.

The stakes are *not* that high - remember, even if you flatly reject everything about Christianity or any other religion, very good chances are that you will still end up in a better world than this.

I believe you are a sincere person. However, it seems to me that there is no way, in your perception of the world, that someone can honestly and sincerely follow Moroni's advice and not receive an answer. When confronted with honest, sincere people who have tried this out and not received an answer, you either consciously or unconsciously conclude that they are doing something wrong.

Like I said, whatever happens, it's between that individual and God - and not my place to judge. I can only report that in my experience, more people have received answers successfully than not. People *have* failed to receive an answer, but I can only say that I hope they really wanted to know, despite whatever result they get.

This is a textbook example of mislabeling belief as "knowledge". If the witness of the Holy Spirit is powerful enough that it becomes knowledge, how is it that it can be diminished or forgotten? It sounds like this "knowledge" is on shaky ground.

You're quite right. It's like this - you go to a restaurant, and you get your favorite dessert. You find out that it's actually the best tasting dessert you've ever had. You remember and cherish the experience. However, as you know, our memories diminish over time, and the potency of such experiences diminish as well. Unless you go back to that restaurant and remind yourself by ordering it again.

In other words, once you get that knowledge, the experience, you remember it. But time does tricky things to our memories and knowledge. You need to keep feeding that knowledge and memories to maintain the potency of such experiences. That's just plain human nature - to forget.

We can know that the Holy Spirit confirmed to us, but we have to keep working at it so we can remember those experiences over time.

If one of them really is the Supreme Ultimate Truth, it should stand out. Mormonism fails to do this just as much as the rest of them.

Or if the truth is really a quiet and humble sort of truth and does not stand out because it's quite simple. Either that, or its ideas are too different from what people expect the truth to be. :)

So - you're left with a choice - ask God to confirm if the truth is contained in the LDS Church and the Book of Mormon, or remain ignorant if it's true or not, despite whatever contrary evidence there may be against Mormonism. :)
 
I haven't read the whole thread since I last replied, so apologies if this reply or future replies have addressed various points in this thread:

A question about the BoM: is it the inerrant Word of God to Mormons? Or, as with non-Mormon christians, is there a range of attitudes -- fundamentalist (100% historical); liberal (part history part metaphor, open to [individual] interpretation); humanistic (maybe 100% metaphor, but ethically true nonetheless); etc.

It is the Word of God as translated correctly. The King James Bible contain numerous translation errors, so you cannot take it at its full value.

As regards to the latter question, it's a mixture - but the people and events therein are considered to be true (as in fact). There are some metaphors to be sure, but those are quite obvious, and in actuality, the book purports to be a primarily historical record. If you read it (objectively, as if you were a literary scholar), you might conclude that it claims to be a historical record (with no evidence to substantiate, of course).
 
Scot, can you tell us why we should take your beliefs more seriously than those of maatorc. http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86922&page=7

He seems as sure of his "truths" as you do. It would help to know that you weren't like him.

There's absolutely no reason why you should take my "claims" more seriously than maatorc's. I only suggest that there's a specific way that God will answer to you if you really wanted to know. Maatorc's claims are for a different kind of experience - ESP, as I understand it. Two different experiences.
 
What is perfections? Does it include killing people? God is perfect but he kills people.

No idea - perfection is something that humans cannot attain or experience, because we all decay and die - all living things do. We have nothing to base on what perfection is. We can only have faith that God is perfect. I can only assume that it means I'd be morally perfect in every good way.

Remember, I have said that God knows every fact of every situation, and therefore qualified to do what is necessary, even killing people if needs be. We are not entirely qualified to kill, although we do have brains to determine what's generally acceptable and what isn't as far as killing is concerned.

Am I not subject to legal punishment? God's punishment?

*Everyone is*.

I don't think the babies that were drowned in the flood asked to be killed.

Who knows if babies were actually killed? Perhaps they were all over the age of eight? We have no way of knowing either way.

Right. That's consistent. If we lie we can't be with god because that would filthy rags in the sight of god. God can kill however. He can torture. He can maim. Some character this god. He sounds very much like Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tung, etc.

That's your perception - and I don't share it, of course. :)

I hope that an egotisical bully that can torture and kill so many children when he doesn't have to doesn't exist. If it is ok for god then why is it not ok for anyone else? Oh, yeah, he's god. Right.

Cynical, are you? I have subjective experiences that prove to me that he is otherwise of what you are thinking. :)
 
I have received subjective evidence that proves some things to me and that's fine. You can assume that it's delusion but your assumption is not based on fact.

Neither is your assumption that the evidence you received through experience is correct. You do not know. You do not. That is the entire point.

It seems from your posts, and correct me if I'm wrong, that your belief in the Mormon faith mostly comes from what you feel is a personal experience you've had with god. You use this personal experience to say you 'know' what you believe is correct and true.

Out of the over 6 billion people on this planet, how many people do you think say the EXACT same thing about themselves? That they 'know' their religion is the true religion because of their own personal experience with god.

Right now there are probably around 1 billion catholic people who would say that their personal experience with god has shown them that Catholicism is the true religion. There are probably around 1 billion Islamic people who would say that their personal experience with god has shown them that Islam is the true religion. The same is true of various other religions.

Now forgive me for being blunt but who the hell do you think you are?

Do you believe that you are special? That you are one of the chosen few who can pray to god and receive an answer? All of these people who believe just as passionately as you do that they have communed with god and they 'KNOW' god has answered them that they are following the true religion. You believe they are all delusional while you have been blessed enough to be given the real answer from god and not a false or made up one like them?

What is the difference between them and you? Who the hell are you that you are so special?

If the only thing you can provide to support your belief in the Mormon church is a personal experience with god then you have a problem because there are 3 billion other you's saying the same thing, except the answer they received was different.
 
We have Catholics, Christians liberals, conservatives, etc., etc. who come here to tell us they are victimized and persecuted. It gets old. You are entitled to share your opinion. I just hope you don't dwell on that aspect.

Of course not - believe me. I agree that it does get old if I were to behave like this - what good does it do, really? I focus on what I know and the positive experiences I've had. :)

What reason?

I said it - right after that statement. I'll quote it again:

Because I actually care about people. Is that so hard to believe? I'm the sort of person who tries his best to respect people's choices and beliefs, so whatever people decide, it's their own choice to make, and I'm fine with that.
 
Who knows if babies were actually killed? Perhaps they were all over the age of eight? We have no way of knowing either way.

Are you trying to say that in the entire human population at the time of the flood no one was below the age of 8...

Do you think it was fair to kill all the first born sons? Why should the first born sons be punished for what the pharaoh did? What if some of those first born sons were innocent?
 
But when you state them as fact, we ask for evidence and rightfully dismiss your claims when the evidence is a "feeling".

I expect no less - but it's a fact *to me* about what I know and have experience. It's an undeniable fact to me. Might not be for some others, but others have had this fact proven to them.

How is it really killing someone if they actually live forever and god knows when everyone will live and die... and even how it will all turn out--that's the whole thing with being omniscient and having a plan, right? If you kill an immortal person, you are just starting their eternity sooner--but not really, because "god is calling them home...or it's part of a plan...like when he killed Jesus...who was really him to atone for people many generations before who ate from the "tree of knowledge".

Killing someone is wrong because *at the very least* you have taken their right to have free will to live - unless that person is willing to die. They live on in the afterlife, yes, but the fact remains that they were taken from this life perhaps too soon, not having his life fulfilled perhaps.

And don't you know that genetics disproves that whole thing about god turning Cain black when he killed Abel (but didn't really kill him because one you are born you live forever...)?

I don't know anything about this - I'm neutral on Cain being "black" or "dark" or whatever it is. But killing Abel robbed Abel's choice to live - that was wrong.

And how is it moral for god just to impregnate a virgin without her consent and then tell her about it later?

I have no idea - but the results are actually wonderful - that we had Jesus Christ born and to teach the world some fantastic things.

And why blood atonement? And what's the big deal about a day and a half on a cross followed by eternal bliss worship and ruling the tiny speck of universe we call earth?

The Atonement is infinite - it's for all time and eternity. It applies to everyone who has committed sin. *How* it works, I do not know - only that if you are sorry for what you did, the Atonement cleanses your sins, that's all.

And how in the world do you make sense of all that and convince yourself it's true? And can there really be an invisible guy whose testing to see if you discover and believe the right unbelievable story in the right way? Can you force yourself to believe crap when you have a very good education in exactly how such beliefs are promulgated and have no bearing on facts?

Heh, you ask very good questions, and I'm happy to say that - I haven't been led wrong at all. Actions speak louder than words. What I have done in the LDS Church, it has made me a better person, to be more Christ-like, to be fair and loving to all people, and to serve other people. Words are words, but actions are much more powerful as a testament to how effective doctrines can be in the LDS Church. My family is extremely happy through living the laws and commandments of God. That is very valuable, since they do work. Results prove the commandments' worth.

In other words - doing what Christ taught and did - those actions do bring happiness and knowledge.

Of course, there's so much more to this than all of what I'm saying. I've had many, many different kinds of experiences that attest to the validity of my beliefs. It's quite amazing - I only wish people could share in such experiences, but such is life. Each person is to go through their lives with their own choices to make.

It must be tiring to constantly live in denial and prop up the delusion by giving testimony and converting others and telling yourself you "know".

LOL - you think so? I can tell you for myself that you're wrong on that score. If you really believe that, then why are you discussing this with me? Are you hoping for a change or something? :)

As for psychologists, I'd trust Bob McCue a former Mormon for some great insights far more than I'd trust someone who was lying to themselves because they believed faith was a way to "know".

Heh - to be honest, I gave a good chuckle at that. It doesn't help you to know that my father's a well-respected psychiatrist in this state, does it? My father has such bad insights, eh? :)
 
Hi Scott Ferre and a bit of a belated welcome from me too. I wanted to pick up on this as it's sort of related to a query I've had about the whole point of worship and praying. Why do you think god would require should precision given his omniscience, omnipotence etc.? Sorry for jumping on this as I know you've had a lot of replies (and feel free to ignore it if you want) but this type of thing always puzzles me as it seems somewhat limiting on the concept of god.

Hi! Thanks for the welcome! :)

I dunno - I suppose it's because a specific process that is clearly outlined in the scriptures would be clear and universally accessible to everyone. This way, there is no ambiguity on what to do. But why doesn't God let everyone know about this process, one might ask? Good question as well - because faith and free will are two very important concepts, so previous to God that he would not intervene on such a general level to change anyone's free will. In other words, God gave us free will so that *we* can choose to do whatever we want - including choosing to find God whatever the cost may be. Or not. If you really wanted to find God, then you'd be open to whatever possibility there might be, right? How do you find him? If God has a church, which one is it? How can I find it? The question then becomes - what am I willing to do to find it? This is the key element here - this is why there's a specific process - to clearly know who is serious and honest about finding God, that they are willing to follow the specific process whatever it may be.

As it is, I've found him, and the specific process hasn't failed me. Or my wife. Or my family. Or many of my friends across the world. So the question is - do you believe any of us? That God does answer prayers of a specific nature?
 
I expect no less - but it's a fact *to me* about what I know and have experience. It's an undeniable fact to me. Might not be for some others, but others have had this fact proven to them.

I suggest you read my post a little bit up the page. Please re-read it until you fully understand the point I am trying to make in it.

And to add to that let me tell you a little story. One time many years ago when I was still pretty young I was having a discussion in a chat room about Christianity. What we eventually decided was that if God is real then he should give me a sign, and they prayed for such an event. Later that same day I watched a movie with my parents that they had rented. It was a pro-religion type film where the devil is trying to do something so he can come to earth and rule while some human hero is supposed to stop him from accomplishing this with the hero ultimately stopping Satan and winning one for god and Christianity.

At the time I believed this was supposed to be my sign. And for a while I believed it was and decided to be Christian. Ultimately I decided though that it was just coincidence. To believe that god had my parents pick out a movie such as this to renew my faith and prove himself is just silly. Now I'm sure your experience was better than this but nonetheless the point is that people can make themselves believe something has more significance than it does or mean something it doesn't. This happens to people all the time. There are people who have been priests and ministers for many many years and eventually realize they were wrong and become atheist.
 
In other words, god is the equivalent of the inn keeper from the Peter Sellers Pink Panther Series.

Does your dog bite?

(Clouseau sees a dog)
Clouseau: Does your dog bite?
Inn Keeper: No.
(Clouseau reaches out to pet dog. The dog bites Clouseau).
Clauseau: I thought you said your dog does not bite.
Inn Keeper: That is not my dog.

I disagree with your comparison - but nevertheless!!! I LOVE THAT SCENE!!! It's one of the funniest things in the movies! :D
 
But what is the point of this life? What purpose does it serve to come here without the opportunity to hear and decide in this life? Why come to this earth at all? Why can't we all be tested in heaven?

At the very least, to obtain a physical form for our spirits. If we die early as infants or children or whenever, at least we'd have a body for the spirits. Learning good and evil happens to be an important secondary motive, at the very least. It's much easier to learn good and evil than in heaven, because *Satan and his followers are sinners* and sinners can't live in heaven, remember? :)

Still born babies? Babies that die shortly after birth? They had to have a body. Why? Just did. Don't question god. Besides, they get a get out of jail free card so we can all feel good about that.

For most parents, experiencing still born babies or babies that die are very painful, whether you believe in the afterlife or not. Even though they might be in a better world, it's still painful - I know, because we lost one. Nevertheless, we may yet see that child again someday, to be reunited.
 
So, people who want to find the truth and happen to discover Mormonism or are born into a Mormon family and ask questions relevant to salvation don't have to worry very much about their logic when it comes to finding the true church. It's all good.

Not really - logic doesn't necessarily come in some cases. Take a friend of mine, for example. This person was into vampires and dark stuff. She wore skull earrings and read Anne Rice novels. She was pretty far from God as you can get. Nevertheless, she had a Mormon friend who was recently converted, and that friend told her that God did answer her prayers. I'm sure my friend scoffed, but didn't shut her Mormon friend out. Anyway, as this was on my mission, my companion and I were invited to talk to this woman. She was willing to listen to us, despite her skepticism, but she trusted her friend. After some struggles and a period of many months, she finally got her answer, and chose to be baptized. Last I saw her, she was very happy, and a very different person than before - and those differences were for the better.

My point is - my friend started here - skepticism about God, but willing to listen. There was no logic needed - she suspended her disbelief for the time being, and eventually asked God on the veracity of our claims. She got her answer.

A person like the woman in my example though must be very precise, right? If she doesn't ask if the Mormon Church is true then she is out of luck, right?

Never say never! No one is out of luck at all - even when the Second Coming occurs, there may be chances for people to change their minds and choose to listen and to be converted if they so wished. It's never too late (I hope). :)

I don't know about very precise, but if the woman really wanted to know, she would have to be willing to try, wouldn't she?
 

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