Commentary: Discussion on Mormonism

[RandFan]

RandFan - Yes. I can study how other cults are deceived. I can study what things they get addicted to and avoid that addiction. I don't agree that your list is a list of causes of deception.

Social anthropologists would disagree.

In my own life, I have found, rather, that the deception comes from sin.

This doesn't make any sense. One of the most important aspects of indoctrination is discipline. This has been documented in Communist and Nazi regimes as well as cults. This includes sin, avoidance of alcohol, promiscuity, infidelity, drugs, etc., etc.

Mormons are not the only ones with prohibitions of vice.

In fact, strict dicipline is a prime red flag for cult and cult like organizations.

As I've worked through a lot of this over the years, I learn what deceives and what doesn't...

I have no doubt that this is what any person in a cult or fundamentals organization would say. No one thinks they are being deceived.

That's the point.

...what ends up false and what ends up true. Experience with these things is what I rely on and it's working miracles in my own life in changing me from selfish to generous, from impatient, to patient, from miserable to happy, from addicted to free, from dishonest to honest, from afraid to peaceful.

Typical platitudes. This is nothing exceptional or different from any other cult or fundamental belief.

In the example, the monitor was the brain, the hard drive or memory is the spirit.

But we know this is wrong. We can say our hair is our memory or our eyes are our memory but this is nonsense. It doesn't fit with any understanding of neuroscience. We know that the brain stores memory. Calling it a display is just a dodge.

If I damage the screen, you'll never be able to see the true "memory" behind the screen unless the screen is fixed or replaced.

So you are saying that if I damage just a tiny portion of your brain and say wipe out a memory of you as a child riding a bike that the memory is still in your spirit? What does the brain have to do with spirit memory? If this is true and you die how will you process memories? Will that memory come back? How? The spirit needs the brain for memories, according to you that is.

One last thing, I dated a girl who was a psych major. We were both atteding the University of Utah. Her thesis was on endoctrination and cults. She was studying Mormons. She wanted to understand how people came to believe Mormonism.

What I'm saying is that other people study you to see how you are decieved.

 

[rcronk]

Elind - I and others are looking for objective evidence and proposing theories. Some people here have proposed some theories and I was providing some evidence that disproved those theories and support my theory. That's all. I'm done.

RandFan - I'm done.

 

[Elind]

Ahh well; spoken like a true politician loyal to the cause. Obfuscation is the name of the game it seems. Wordprinting is the issue (as an example) to discuss to the nth degree until it finally becomes a proof of something implied.

I've asked at least 3 times now, what it meant to rcronk to prove whether or not Joseph Smith "wrote" the BoM. He has avoided the question every time.

Perhaps he will come back in a few years, having seen the painful (to him) light.

 

[RandFan]

Elind - I and others are looking for objective evidence and proposing theories. Some people here have proposed some theories and I was providing some evidence that disproved those theories and support my theory. That's all. I'm done.

RandFan - I'm done.

If the weight of the evidence were in support of Mormonism I would be an active Mormon today. If it were even plausible I would be an Active Mormon today.

 

[Tanstaafl]

Elind - I and others are looking for objective evidence and proposing theories. Some people here have proposed some theories and I was providing some evidence that disproved those theories and support my theory. That's all. I'm done.

RandFan - I'm done.

This is unfortunate. I was learning a lot from this, and I'm sure you were too.

 

[rcronk]

Elind - It seems we're arguing past each other. Wordprinting being used to prove or disprove that Joseph Smith "wrote" the Book of Mormon (as opposed to translating it) means nothing to me because I already know he was a true prophet of God and I already know that the Book of Mormon is what it says it is - an ancient work written by prophets on the American continent, translated by Joseph Smith into English. I only bring up wordprinting for the benefit of people here who have asked me for objective evidence and who have proposed theories that don't match the evidence.

RandFan - If I told you that I was studying you to find out how (not if) you have been deceived, how would you feel about that?

Tanstaafl - I've learned a lot also, but personal attacks, association fallacy, nobody trying to find any common ground and arguing past each other is really starting to get in the way of useful discourse. I'm getting a bit tired of it - especially coming from 5 or 6 people directed all at me all at once. What's the point? What have you learned?

 

[Tanstaafl]

I've learned a lot about your world view. I believe it has made me more sensitive to the issues believers face when their faith is challenged.

I can understand your not wanting to hang around and be ganged up on. As I recall though, wasn't that one of the purposes of the moderated thread?

 

[rcronk]

The purpose of the moderated thread was for RandFan to express the reasons he left the LDS church and for me to go do a little research on each item to see what I could find. That's it.

The purpose of this thread was to provide a place for anyone else to give commentary on the moderated thread.

I think it was a partial success but it seemed that it was too easy to get sidetracked into this thread and for this thread to get sidetracked into other issues unrelated to the moderated thread.

 

[Elind]

Elind - It seems we're arguing past each other. Wordprinting being used to prove or disprove that Joseph Smith "wrote" the Book of Mormon (as opposed to translating it) means nothing to me because I already know he was a true prophet of God and I already know that the Book of Mormon is what it says it is - an ancient work written by prophets on the American continent, translated by Joseph Smith into English.

I realized we were arguing past each other some time ago. However I now understand something that I didn't before; namely that the BoM (aka the plates) was actually written by other humans (unknown I presume), then buried in the ground to be found (with guidance from above) by Joseph Smith. Did I get that right?

I also understand that the actual mechanism of finding, translating and so on is unimportant to believers. The Book might just as well have appeared in a puff of smoke, or on a random computer screen. Makes no difference since the words are all that matter.
Did I get that right?

I only bring up wordprinting for the benefit of people here who have asked me for objective evidence and who have proposed theories that don't match the evidence.

The only point in examining evidence about something is to draw a conclusion. You say you don't care if Joseph Smith wrote the book or not. You don't care how it came to be. You only know that it is. Other people bring up "evidence" thinking it proves something. You seem to be admitting that evidence is irrelevant anyway, which make you dangerously close to a troll, and you should know that trolls are breakfast food here.

Hey, I'm just kidding; but seriously, I'm also pissed that you waste so much bandwidth arguing a point that is meaningless to you in the final analysis, and that's not nice.

 

[rcronk]

Elind - You're getting warmer. The Book of Mormon was written by prophets named Lehi, Nephi, Alma, etc. who left Jerusalem about 600 BC who came to the American continent. One of those prophets was named Mormon and he compiled some of these writings into a book that we call the Book of Mormon. These were written on plates and buried. Joseph Smith got them and translated them.I do actually care about the evidence. Let me rephrase. I received knowledge of their truthfulness through subjective means. So this objective evidence is just confirmation of my subjective evidence. Again - I didn't bring this up to draw a conclusion. I brought it up to help the people here to understand that their theories were not supported by evidence. I am surprized that this is so difficult for you to understand. It seems like I'm explaining the same thing over and over and you're not getting it at all. It's strange.

 

[Elind]

Yes it's strange. The plates say (after doubtful translation of course, which has to be taken on faith), based on faith, that prophets named only in the plates (see the circularity here?) and anticipating the eventual arrival of Jesus, 600 years later and another 300 or so years until His words were properly edited and translated from scrolls found here and there (sound familiar?).

Have you absolutely no concept of how ridiculous this is and how you just don't get it? It's strange.

Of course most Christians, as opposed to Mormons, believe that the Bible was written by god, through ghost writers; so to assume that you think the BoM was written by God is a natural assumption. Sorry if I misunderstood that part and didn't appreciate the many contributors, whatever they were.

BTW, what will your religion do when aliens are eventually found out there?

Spawn of Satan, or relatives of the original god's family, or simply dead people with long lost memories?

This isn't actually a facetious question. Since many of your folk think they will be given planets after death, I suspect the concept has been considered at prophet level.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan - If I told you that I was studying you to find out how (not if) you have been deceived, how would you feel about that?

Just fine. Why would I feel any different?

I'm skeptical of my world view therefore I'm secure in my world view. I'm not threatned when anyone questions my beliefs. I'm only interested in the truth. If I don't have it then I would like to be shown where I'm wrong. I'm not wishy washy. It takes good argument and time to get me to see the truth sometimes but if the evidence is there then I will see it.

In all honesty, if I got a call today asking me if I wanted to be part of a survey to find out how atheists have been deceived I would think that would be very cool. So long as someone uses critical thinking in such a study why on earth would that be a problem?

I'm sorry if you were offended by it. It wasn't meant to be offensive. I'm trying to make a valid point. You said you could study others to see how they are deceived. Why do you assume that they are deceived? They don't make that assumption?

 

[Pixel42]

Just fine. Why would I feel any different?

Well quite.

Personally I would want to know what made him so sure I was being deceived and would check out his evidence as objectively as I could, i.e. whilst seriously considering the possibility that I was indeed being deceived, instead of assuming I was right and trying to find ways, however implausible, of explaining it away.

But then I am well aware of how easily people can be deceived and can deceive themselves, and do not consider myself magically immune.

 

[Elind]

If I told you that I was studying you to find out how (not if) you have been deceived, how would you feel about that?

:sigh:


You engage in debate about peripheral trivia as if that might convince others of your truth, even as you simultaneously claim that the same arguments would have no effect on your so called truths either way.

I don't think you are a troll but you are deceitful in pretending that your personal visions can be communicated through arguments that are unimportant to you.

It is sad that potentially intelligent people like you can become blinded by what you, and you alone, imagine as truth.

 

[RandFan]

I think these threads should be unstuck and let die. This is just my opinion.

I want to thank the mods for allowing this and I hope it is allowed in the future.

I especially want to thank prewitt. Fine job sir.

 

[Elind]

RIP

 

[rcronk]

I agree. Let's let the threads go. I would like to thank the mods, RandFan and everyone else who has posted here. I have benefited from all of your input. Thanks.

 

[RandFan]

I agree. Let's let the threads go. I would like to thank the mods, RandFan and everyone else who has posted here. I have benefited from all of your input. Thanks.

Thank rcronk.

 

[FSM]

Sorry to add to the thread when everyone wants to let it go, (and I think that's a good idea...) but I just wanted to thank everyone who participated in this thread, particulary rcronk for his bravery and articulett, randfan, prewitt, tanstaafl, Elind, and Pixel for the information.

This thread was full of interesting arguments, wonderful links, and best of all, no matter how intense everyone got about their point, no one seemed to become overly hostile or hurtful. Even after I stopped posting on it, I followed it closely. This thread embodies why I joined the forum.

Thanks everyone.