Commentary: Discussion on Mormonism

[articulett]

Scot, it's a skeptics forum... you are entitled to your beliefs--who isn't? But when you state them as fact, we ask for evidence and rightfully dismiss your claims when the evidence is a "feeling".

How is it really killing someone if they actually live forever and god knows when everyone will live and die... and even how it will all turn out--that's the whole thing with being omniscient and having a plan, right? If you kill an immortal person, you are just starting their eternity sooner--but not really, because "god is calling them home...or it's part of a plan...like when he killed Jesus...who was really him to atone for people many generations before who ate from the "tree of knowledge".

And don't you know that genetics disproves that whole thing about god turning Cain black when he killed Abel (but didn't really kill him because one you are born you live forever...)? And how is it moral for god just to impregnate a virgin without her consent and then tell her about it later? And why blood atonement? And what's the big deal about a day and a half on a cross followed by eternal bliss worship and ruling the tiny speck of universe we call earth?

And how in the world do you make sense of all that and convince yourself it's true? And can there really be an invisible guy whose testing to see if you discover and believe the right unbelievable story in the right way? Can you force yourself to believe crap when you have a very good education in exactly how such beliefs are promulgated and have no bearing on facts?

It must be tiring to constantly live in denial and prop up the delusion by giving testimony and converting others and telling yourself you "know". As for psychologists, I'd trust Bob McCue a former Mormon for some great insights far more than I'd trust someone who was lying to themselves because they believed faith was a way to "know".

 

[Mid]

...snip...
A question - do you think there may be a specific action or process that needs to be done in order to get the specific answer you want? Vague queries don't work too well, don't you think? "God, are you there?" and you might get an answer that *might* be questionable if it really was from God or not. In my previous reply, I had suddenly thought of an idea - it's like a map to a treasure. Many people are looking for treasure (God), yeah? And the map is something that lists specific details and actions which are needed to reach the treasure. In other words, perhaps there's something specific that needs to be done so that God can finally reveal himself to you.
...snip...

Hi Scott Ferre and a bit of a belated welcome from me too. I wanted to pick up on this as it's sort of related to a query I've had about the whole point of worship and praying. Why do you think god would require should precision given his omniscience, omnipotence etc.? Sorry for jumping on this as I know you've had a lot of replies (and feel free to ignore it if you want) but this type of thing always puzzles me as it seems somewhat limiting on the concept of god.

 

[RandFan]

Hi Scott Ferre and a bit of a belated welcome from me too. I wanted to pick up on this as it's sort of related to a query I've had about the whole point of worship and praying. Why do you think god would require should precision given his omniscience, omnipotence etc.? Sorry for jumping on this as I know you've had a lot of replies (and feel free to ignore it if you want) but this type of thing always puzzles me as it seems somewhat limiting on the concept of god.

This reminds me of a point brought up in the movie Tommy. Tommy is deaf, dumb and blind.

And Tommy doesnt know what day it is.
Doesnt know who jesus was or what praying is.
How can he be saved?
From the eternal grave

I have always found it odd that humans would give god omnipotence and then limit him. Perhaps I shouldn't.

 

[Mid]

This reminds me of a point brought up in the movie Tommy. Tommy is deaf, dumb and blind.

And Tommy doesnt know what day it is.
Doesnt know who jesus was or what praying is.
How can he be saved?
From the eternal grave

I have always found it odd that humans would give god omnipotence and then limit him. Perhaps I shouldn't.

I'm sure they'd be some mysterious way in which he could be saved, or some other excuse.

 

[rcronk]

RandFan - Tommy would have a chance to accept or reject the gospel after this life, just like all other people who haven't had the opportunity to hear the gospel here in this life.I think the point of being sincere in asking God things deals with not mocking Him. Being specific deals with understanding the answer. If I ask, "Is the Bible true" and get a confirmation that it is true, I might be tempted to assume that this meant "the christian church I'm attending is true" or something similar. It's just important to have specific questions and understand what answers to those questions mean.

 

[RandFan]

I think the point of being sincere in asking God things deals with not mocking Him. Being specific deals with understanding the answer. If I ask, "Is the Bible true" and get a confirmation that it is true, I might be tempted to assume that this meant "the christian church I'm attending is true" or something similar. It's just important to have specific questions and understand what answers to those questions mean.

I'm not sure of your point about mocking.

In any event, your supposition makes god a robot who does not respond to the overall picture or the intent of one's heart but instead is only interested in minutiae. In other words, god is the equivalent of the inn keeper from the Peter Sellers Pink Panther Series.

Does your dog bite?

(Clouseau sees a dog)
Clouseau: Does your dog bite?
Inn Keeper: No.
(Clouseau reaches out to pet dog. The dog bites Clouseau).
Clauseau: I thought you said your dog does not bite.
Inn Keeper: That is not my dog.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan - Tommy would have a chance to accept or reject the gospel after this life, just like all other people who haven't had the opportunity to hear the gospel here in this life.

I liked the Mormon concept of fairness. Everyone would have the opportunity to hear and accept.

But what is the point of this life? What purpose does it serve to come here without the opportunity to hear and decide in this life? Why come to this earth at all? Why can't we all be tested in heaven?

We are back to arguing post hoc again. We first decide what is true and then try to cobble explanations together to fit all of the incongruities. Still born babies? Babies that die shortly after birth? They had to have a body. Why? Just did. Don't question god. Besides, they get a get out of jail free card so we can all feel good about that.

 

[rcronk]

That's a good point but it would seem that for God to compensate for someone's upcoming logic mistakes it would make God someone who controlls our environment to keep us from falling - which ultimately makes us weaker. Of course, I'm probably just creating a strawman argument on God's behalf for you to knock down, which is probably often the case.You could ask God yourself and find out from the source.

 

[rcronk]

RandFan - you were a missionary. You know the reasons we came to earth - to get a body and to learn right from wrong - as well as to be tested.Stating that we're arguing post hoc is assuming that all of this is false. If it's true, then you're just asking the questions post hoc and we're answering them as you ask. And again, we're just people, we may just be setting up strawmen for god - ask him yourself. P.S. Are we going to move to item 2 in the moderated thread?

 

[RandFan]

That's a good point but it would seem that for God to compensate for someone's upcoming logic mistakes it would make God someone who controlls our environment to keep us from falling - which ultimately makes us weaker. Of course, I'm probably just creating a strawman argument on God's behalf for you to knock down, which is probably often the case.You could ask God yourself and find out from the source.

"Logic mistakes"?

So, if I understand you correctly, it is the process and not the intent that is important?

Isn't it the content of a person's heart and not their mental competency that's important?

 

[RandFan]

RandFan - you were a missionary. You know the reasons we came to earth - to get a body and to learn right from wrong - as well as to be tested.

I don't know that. I know that is Mormon doctrine.

Stating that we're arguing post hoc is assuming that all of this is false.

No, it's not making assumptions at all. I'm asking you to first demonstrate what you are saying is true and not argue post hoc. If you want to explain Mormon doctrine that's fine.

...ask him yourself.

I've asked god. That you keep repeating this isn't advancing anything.

P.S. Are we going to move to item 2 in the moderated thread?

I've done it.

 

[rcronk]

It's not complicated. I ask a sincere question and God answers that question. Having a sincere heart and real intent is very important. The logic errors come in to play when I take an answer from God and start inferring what else that answer can mean.

 

[RandFan]

Oh, rcronk, if you haven't checked out Mr. Deity then I highly recommend it. It was conceptualized by a foreman (former Mormon).

Jesus: Do you ever answer prayers?
Mr. Deity: I helped Timmy find his puppy.
Jesus: Timmy's puppy was dead sir.
Mr. Deity: Yeah, but I helped him find it. That was what he was praying for, "help me find my puppy", not "help me find my puppy alive".

You've reduced god to a robot.

 

[RandFan]

It's not complicated. I ask a sincere question and God answers that question. Having a sincere heart and real intent is very important. The logic errors come in to play when I take an answer from God and start inferring what else that answer can mean.

So, people who want to find the truth and happen to discover Mormonism or are born into a Mormon family and ask questions relevant to salvation don't have to worry very much about their logic when it comes to finding the true church. It's all good.

A person like the woman in my example though must be very precise, right? If she doesn't ask if the Mormon Church is true then she is out of luck, right?

BTW, you are moving the goal posts. Earlier answers were predicated on questions. Now it's figuring out what god meant.

 

[rcronk]

No, you're asking different questions and I'm giving you answers. If I'm giving you the impression that God's a jerk, I apologize. It sounds like you're more interested in finding my faults than finding God. That's fine because it's good for me to see my own faults too. I think you're being mean about it though and purposefully finding (inventing) in my answers things that you know I will disagree with. Stop it please.P.S. I replied in the moderated thread and I hope I've done a better job this time. I really am not trying to frustrate you, I promise.P.P.S. I am posting from my phone - sorry for the bad formatting.

 

[RandFan]

rcronk, I assure that I have little to no emotion in this debate. If it appears that I do then I appologize. I must confess that I often get emotional but that is just not the case here.

I appologize for mocking what you find sacred or important. It's not meant to make you upset.

Don't at all worry about the formating. That's fine.

 

[RandFan]

No, you're asking different questions and I'm giving you answers. If I'm giving you the impression that God's a jerk, I apologize. It sounds like you're more interested in finding my faults than finding God. That's fine because it's good for me to see my own faults too. I think you're being mean about it though and purposefully finding (inventing) in my answers things that you know I will disagree with. Stop it please.

I promise that my posts are sincere and are meant to address an important question that has yet to be addressed.

Why is it that those who seek answers regarding eternal salvation by investigating Mormon theology find the answers in Mormon theology?

Why is it that those who seek answers regarding eternal salvation by investigating Catholic theology find the answers in Catholic theology?

Why is it that those who seek answers regarding eternal salvation by investigating Protestant Christian theology find the answers in Protestant Christian theology?

Why is it that those who seek answers regarding eternal salvation by investigating Muslim theology find the answers in Muslim theology?

God's plan to lead people to the truth of eternal salvation seems very, very ineffective. It seems you must first look in the right place before you can even bother asking god.

 

[The_Animus]

I love Mr. Deity. It's such a great series. Especially the episode where he is explaining to Jesus what he has to do.

 

[rcronk]

There are many possible reasons that people get the answers you speak of. I have tried to give you as many reasons I can and I could list the ones I can think of again but I don't know what that would accomplish. In my experience, the majority of people are in their religion because their parents were in it. The next group picked a religion that they agreed with. The next group picked one that was entertaining or made them feel good. None of the above people in the above groups that I talked to asked God about which church was His. These groups make up the majority of people I have talked to. It's not a scientific poll - I welcome data that is scientific though.So then we get to the minority of people who are seeking to find out from God which church is His. It is possible that things were clear in the beginning of life here on earth and through mistakes, lost thruths, even through purposeful means, things have become splintered and confusing. Perhaps some people don't have access to truths that would help them understand how to find God. This doesn't mean God sucks or his plan sucks, it just means that we've all been given agency to do what we want and some have chosen to hid truth and we are also imperfect and so some have accidentally lost truth. Accodring to the Mormons, a boy wanted to know which of all of this confusion was true and he asked God directly and got an answer that it was all created by man. I guess this post is probably throwing a lot onto the fire but it's just a dump of my thoughts.

 

[articulett]

I love Mr. Deity. It's such a great series. Especially the episode where he is explaining to Jesus what he has to do.

http://crackle.com/c/Funny/Mr_Deity_and_the_Really_Big_Favor_Episode_2/1958326

I like the episode of evil: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzf8q9QHfhI

And the why won't god heal amputees "optical illusion" http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/video8.htm

It is indeed fun, not to be afraid, to think and laugh at old fears, puzzles, and angst. Growing up is hard but worth it. No more Santa, but so much cooler info on that "tree of knowledge". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

It's a much bigger, fascinating, and awe inspiring universe when you let go of what you can't "know" and seek out what you can-- humans have figured out a lot over the eons... and we can pass it forward to be built upon... and no omniscient anything gave us a hint... we evolved and accumulated our vast knowledge... our humor... our teaching-- ourselves. We ARE the "gods" of generations past. Faith and pseudoknowedge is such a poor substitute when there is such an abundance of facts, isn't it?