Commentary: Discussion on Mormonism

Belief, knowledge and truth are all different things. You can believe something, say "God exists", and believe that belief is knowledge, but it is only knowledge if the belief is true (among other constraints). At least according to the philosophical tradition this is the case.
Please see my latest post about Plato's definition of knowledge and the limits of knowledge.

This may be obvious, but when you start to talk about knowledge by talking about truth I am worried that you may be using the words differently to how I understand them.To establish that "it is possible to correctly "know", 1without error, the truth of a proposition innately and not by any external sensory perception" is false takes showing that such a situation never occurs.
That can't be done. It's irrelevant of course since we are talking about absolute knowledge and not simply being correct in one's belief (again, see recent post).

Thank you.
 
Randfan and rcronk:

I would suggest that you might want to narrow your scope to one issue (or maybe two issues) at a time. Just a thought, but it seems like trying to do five threads in one is a bit much.
:D

I thought it WAS one issue! I have a list of 10. I think it unlikely that we will ever get through them all.

Perhaps we will narrow the scope of this one. Let's see how rcronk responds.
 
Hi - this is my first post - I just want to post that I'm LDS, and I found this site from someone else. I have a lot of catching up to do by reading the relevant threads on the LDS Church and on whether it's true. I look forward to reading and commenting where I can. :)
Welcome Scot, jump in, the water is fine (though be wared there are a few sharks, AKA trolls, about). :)
 
Welcome Scot, jump in, the water is fine (though be wared there are a few sharks, AKA trolls, about). :)

Oh, I'm not worried, really - I'm used to being ridiculed and mocked for my views. It's not a popular one, I know - but sometimes knowing the truth means that you have to take an unpopular stand. Jesus was popular with some people, but the leadership of the country thought otherwise. Even though, the Church after he left, under Peter, didn't survive for very long, probably because the ideas as espoused by Christ were, in some ways, radical.

Anyway, I've written hundreds of posts in defense of the LDS Church on another forum, but in the long run, does it matter? I think it does, because they will stand as a testament for who do not choose to listen, and honestly, I actually mean this with a sad heart, because I actually care about people. I know I'm new to this forum and I don't have much of a reputation yet, but I hope I come across favorably and honestly. I look forward to more discussions if the occasion arises. :)
 
Oh... he's doing that weird religious thing-- either the Mormon god exists or no god exists... what if the Muslim god is the true god? Because the Muslim god thinks all Christians have been deceived by a false prophet and will go to hell.

Lots of belief systems have nonbelievers suffering eternally-- that doesn't tell which of them is correct. None of them have anymore evidence than any other.

Just because there are two choices Zeus existed/ Zeus never existed-- doesn't mean both are equally likely.

I wonder if rconk has watched any of randi's videos where people are fooled about all kinds of things so easily-- and it has nothing to do with eternal rewards or threats of damnation-- just basic confirmation bias and quirks in rationality.
 
Oh... he's doing that weird religious thing-- either the Mormon god exists or no god exists... what if the Muslim god is the true god? Because the Muslim god thinks all Christians have been deceived by a false prophet and will go to hell.

Lots of belief systems have nonbelievers suffering eternally-- that doesn't tell which of them is correct. None of them have anymore evidence than any other.

Just because there are two choices Zeus existed/ Zeus never existed-- doesn't mean both are equally likely.

I wonder if rconk has watched any of randi's videos where people are fooled about all kinds of things so easily-- and it has nothing to do with eternal rewards or threats of damnation-- just basic confirmation bias and quirks in rationality.

Heh - interesting comments. Well, really, you say you've met and known several LDS members, IIRC - would they be suffering from quirks in rationality or confirmation bias? Are they all fooled? Me and my family? The people I met in England who were converted? I really hope you are not simplifying all of my and their experiences - because if you are, you are making a fundamental mistake - ignoring the complexities of such experiences across cultures, ages, upbringings, knowledge, personalities, and so on.

FYI - the LDS Church's doctrines do not state at all that non-believers will suffer eternally. If punishment is to be meted, it's only temporary. Only very few non-believes will have eternal punishment - otherwise, most people will find themselves on a better world than the world we live on now - just not necessarily the best one. If there's *any* eternal punishment for a majority of the people, it's self-regret at the choices they made in this life - a punishment of their own making.
 
Oh, I'm not worried, really - I'm used to being ridiculed and mocked for my views.

I'll echo the welcome, Scot. You should find this a friendly enough place. Always be willing and able to back up what you say with evidence, and please don't consider it mocking or ridiculing if your opinions are challenged.

ometimes knowing the truth means that you have to take an unpopular stand.


As one who spent his last months as a believer (literally) begging for a sign from Heaven, I wonder why I wasn't privy to this "truth". I am quite interested in your opinion.

Jesus was popular with some people, but the leadership of the country thought otherwise. Even though, the Church after he left, under Peter, didn't survive for very long, probably because the ideas as espoused by Christ were, in some ways, radical.

If you are saying that the early Christian church was similar in doctrine to the Latter Day Saints, please provide evidence - particularly of those points at which Mormonism differs from traditional Christianity. If I have misunderstood, accept my apologies.

Anyway, I've written hundreds of posts in defense of the LDS Church on another forum, but in the long run, does it matter? I think it does, because they will stand as a testament for who do not choose to listen, and honestly, I actually mean this with a sad heart, because I actually care about people.

Many things have been written on this forum as a testament to the "lost and dying world." Catholics, Muslims, Nostradamians, members of nearly every religious faith, philosophy, etc., have spoken of the truth they possess and their sorrow that we don't understand and accept their view. In what way, besides special pleading, is your statement any different than theirs?

One of my favorite biblical scholars compares such special pleading to an argument that Batman, the Green Lantern, and Iron Man are stories, but Superman is real. I'm not trying to be rude at all, and the analogy is not meant to be condescending. I just want to make clear that I view your claim very similarly.

Is this a derail? Perhaps, but it stems from the discussion on Mormonism. If another mod thinks this is worthy of a split, I understand completely.
 
eternal punishment

This may seem like a nitpick, but to me it is a major point. As punishment is an action meant to correct a behavior, the phrase "eternal punishment" makes no sense. If one is never given another chance to correct their behavior, and they suffer for it, it is not punishment - it is torture.

Many are not willing to say their loving creator tortures souls forever. They have no problem with "eternal punishment", however. It is the same thing.
 
randfan - Perhaps we can run through each one of the ten with just a few posts back and forth on each one to cover all the bases and see where we're at and then we can see which ones we want to revisit. Thoughts?
 
I'll echo the welcome, Scot. You should find this a friendly enough place. Always be willing and able to back up what you say with evidence, and please don't consider it mocking or ridiculing if your opinions are challenged.

Oh, no! I just lost my big reply I was writing - I just finished, and I had links to give, but I have not yet reached 15 posts. Consequently, I pushed Post Reply and then the warning came up and I lost all of what I was saying. :(

Never mind - I'll retype what I can. Thank you very much for your very kind welcome! I had gathered that this would be a great place to be, and you just confirmed it! :D

As one who spent his last months as a believer (literally) begging for a sign from Heaven, I wonder why I wasn't privy to this "truth". I am quite interested in your opinion.

A question - do you think there may be a specific action or process that needs to be done in order to get the specific answer you want? Vague queries don't work too well, don't you think? "God, are you there?" and you might get an answer that *might* be questionable if it really was from God or not. In my previous reply, I had suddenly thought of an idea - it's like a map to a treasure. Many people are looking for treasure (God), yeah? And the map is something that lists specific details and actions which are needed to reach the treasure. In other words, perhaps there's something specific that needs to be done so that God can finally reveal himself to you. :)

If you are saying that the early Christian church was similar in doctrine to the Latter Day Saints, please provide evidence - particularly of those points at which Mormonism differs from traditional Christianity. If I have misunderstood, accept my apologies.

Oh, that is what I'm saying, yes - the early Christian church as led by Jesus and Peter had the same doctrines as the LDS Church does now. There are practices and doctrines that are found in the LDS Church which are spoken of in the New Testament but are not commonly found in many mainstream Christian churches. Three things come to mind: 1 - 1 Corinthians 15:29 - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" That refers to temple work for those who are dead and are in need of saving ordinances. 2 - Various mentions of laying on of hands in several blessings documented in the New Testament - this is the power of God manifested in such blessings, and I have seen it manifested through the laying on of hands - and it only works if the authority is present. Men in the LDS Church have this authority. And 3 - Ephesians 4:11 - "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" - we have these types of people in our organizational hierarchy.

There are others to be sure, but those three come to mind.

Many things have been written on this forum as a testament to the "lost and dying world." Catholics, Muslims, Nostradamians, members of nearly every religious faith, philosophy, etc., have spoken of the truth they possess and their sorrow that we don't understand and accept their view. In what way, besides special pleading, is your statement any different than theirs?

The LDS Church is emphatic that God can and does answer directly to specific queries, whether the person is asking about the validity of the Book of Mormon, or if Joseph Smith was indeed a true prophet of God, or some specific question. And such queries are answered directly with the Holy Spirit, whose role is to confirm the truth of all things. I personally have received such confirmations hundreds of times. I have met many previously non-LDS people who have directly asked God for confirmation that what they're learning or hearing about the LDS Church is true at all, and they became converts after the Holy Spirit has testified to them of the validity of such things. The Holy Spirit is available to anyone who wishes to know about such validity in a honest and sincere manner.

In other words - the LDS Church is unique in the sense that they have the Holy Spirit and the authority to act in God's name. It cannot be proven, generally speaking, except only by individual subjective experience through revelation by God.

Is this a derail? Perhaps, but it stems from the discussion on Mormonism. If another mod thinks this is worthy of a split, I understand completely.

I really, really apologize if this is going to be a derail. I know the feeling because of my moderator work on another forum. To be fair, this discussion is appropriate for the moderated thread that we are here to comment on, but as this thread is related to Mormon issues and topics, then it becomes a question of whether people are comfortable with this thread being a commentary of the moderated thread *and* a discussion on related Mormon topics, or whether it should be a separate thread. I honestly do not know because I don't know the forum well enough to judge for myself. :)
 
This may seem like a nitpick, but to me it is a major point. As punishment is an action meant to correct a behavior, the phrase "eternal punishment" makes no sense. If one is never given another chance to correct their behavior, and they suffer for it, it is not punishment - it is torture.

Many are not willing to say their loving creator tortures souls forever. They have no problem with "eternal punishment", however. It is the same thing.

Okay, let me clarify - sins have to paid under Christian theology. In order *not* to pay for sins, we have to partake of Christ's Atonement and be forgiven of sins. Otherwise, we are responsible for the sins we make, and therefore justice requires we pay them. Thankfully, such payment is only temporary. You could technically call this "punishment" but no, it isn't eternal punishment at all. However, if you really want to make up for the sins you've made, I'm sure God will take that into account even if you don't believe in the Atonement of Christ - he would not be that cruel but rather loving and fair to work with each individual as needed. :)
 
Oh, I'm not worried, really - I'm used to being ridiculed and mocked for my views. It's not a popular one, I know - but sometimes knowing the truth means that you have to take an unpopular stand. Jesus was popular with some people, but the leadership of the country thought otherwise. Even though, the Church after he left, under Peter, didn't survive for very long, probably because the ideas as espoused by Christ were, in some ways, radical.
Hey Scot,

I'm glad you are here, I really am, but I gotta say, you are responding in a typical martyr fashion. People from all walks of life, politics, religions, whatever, come here and cry this river. There are victims everywhere you turn. This is a skeptics forum and we don't really respond well to empty rhetoric. Don't you be the troll.

Anyway, I've written hundreds of posts in defense of the LDS Church on another forum, but in the long run, does it matter? I think it does, because they will stand as a testament for who do not choose to listen, and honestly, I actually mean this with a sad heart, because I actually care about people. I know I'm new to this forum and I don't have much of a reputation yet, but I hope I come across favorably and honestly. I look forward to more discussions if the occasion arises. :)
Well, I'll be honest, the whole "stand as a testament" is a bit backhanded and the sad heart comes of as insincere.

It's not necessary, it doesn't advance an argument and few, if any, here are going to cowed into being Mormons because of this rhetoric.

Your ideas about the early Christian church are basically Mormon propaganda. There is some truth to it but it's largely just a fiction to fit Joseph Smith's ideas.

Oh, one more thing, if you haven't seen it, read or watch Kissing Hank's Ass. Might not be safe for work but it is pretty benign.
 
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Okay, let me clarify - sins have to paid under Christian theology.
Hey again Scot,

I gotta warn ya the questions are only going to get tougher from here. :) Don't take it personal. This is a skeptics forum and we can be pretty rigorous in our debate.

What is sin?

We are told that god can't abide sin. Really? Can he abide murder? If someone, anyone, were to drown babies would that be sin?

So, what was it when god drowns infants and toddlers in the flood? Not-sin? If god is so above sin that he can't abide it then how can he commit it? Or is it that when god kills innocent children it's not sin? Because, hey, he is god and the children will live forever in paradise anyway?

Somehow that just doesn't add up.
 
Scot et. al.,

I think it's not a derail if we can tie the conversations here to points being made in the moderated thread. If we cannot, then they deserve their own thread. Thoughts?
 
I'm glad you are here, I really am, but I gotta say, you are responding in a typical martyr fashion. People from all walks of life, politics, religions, whatever, come here and cry this river. There are victims everywhere you turn. This is a skeptics forum and we don't really respond well to empty rhetoric. Don't you be the troll.

Eh? What? I'm confused - granted, you don't know me that well just yet, but I'm not the type to be a martyr, trust me. I'm not even trying to convince anyone but rather be a friendly debater and do my best to discuss issues. I am not the best debater, but my best should be attempted, right? So I really don't intend to have empty rhetoric at all or be a troll - give me a chance to make some more posts. Please don't judge me so quickly, all right? :)

Well, I'll be honest, the whole "stand as a testament" is a bit backhanded and the sad heart comes of as insincere.

It wasn't meant to be backhanded or insincere - quite the opposite, in fact. I mean everything I say, and I have nothing to hide (like you said in another post ;)).

It's not necessary, it doesn't advance an argument and few, if any, here are going to cowed into being Mormons because of this rhetoric.

Again, I have no false notions that I'm going to convert anyone - I'm not here to do that. I'm simply reporting what I know and what I think about these topics, that's all. :)

Your ideas about the early Christian church are basically Mormon propaganda. There is some truth to it but it's largely just a fiction to fit Joseph Smith's ideas.

Really? How do you know it's all a fiction?

Oh, one more thing, if you haven't seen it, (snipped to allow me to post) watch Kissing Hank's Ass. Might not be safe for work but it is pretty benign.

Actually, I'm hard of hearing so I don't understand videos unless there are subtitles.
 
I gotta warn ya the questions are only going to get tougher from here. :) Don't take it personal. This is a skeptics forum and we can be pretty rigorous in our debate.

Don't worry - I expect tough questions - and sometimes I can't answer them, and that's fine, right? We're human beings and we don't know everything, eh? :)

What is sin?

I would like to try myself to avoid answering in a way that may seem as if some people are rather stupid - I don't want to do that. Sometimes simple and concise works. But it's a very good question, and one I cannot answer fully - because sin isn't fully explained. We get an idea or a notion of what it is, but it's not entirely clear. All we know is that it's like a mark against the individual when the person trangresses the law willingly. That's the key word - *willingly*. The person knowingly and willingly breaks the laws as set forth by God. Once you have sin, you cannot have it removed except through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, it must be paid for.

This is just something that requires faith, a hope that you are not accumulating sin and hoping that you are forgiven. I find it much easier to go through life by trying to do what Jesus did and thought than worry about the mistakes I make. As long as I have the right attitude and my heart is in the right place, and do my best to avoid hurting other people (and myself), sin will be minimized or forgiven through the Sacrament. The Atonement will take care of it all eventually.

We are told that god can't abide sin. Really? Can he abide murder? If someone, anyone, were to drown babies would that be sin?

God can't abide sin *where he lives*. Earth was specifically created for sin to exist, with influence from Satan. If someone willingly drowned children and knew that it was wrong (regardless of knowing God's laws or not), then that would perhaps be a sin (a big one, nonetheless).

So, what was it when god drowns infants and toddlers in the flood? Not-sin? If god is so above sin that he can't abide it then how can he commit it? Or is it that when god kills innocent children it's not sin? Because, hey, he is god and the children will live forever in paradise anyway?

Since God has *all* of the facts and knows everything about everyone's situation, he is qualified to judge what's to be done. The commandments and laws that he gives to human beings are meant for *us*, because we don't have all the information to judge fairly on what to do. It's not our call to make when killing or hurting people because we just don't have all the information. It's sin when we human beings *intend* to hurt others. When it's unintentional, it may or may not be sin - just merely a trangression of the law in question.
 
From rcronk's post on the thread:

Giving good gifts is not like a rich man giving his son a new sports car for free when he's 16. He'd make him work and earn a 1974 mercury comet so that his son would appreciate the value of honest work. I think God could work in the same way - that he could answer those who have a sincere desire to seek him instead of the things of this world, for example. I'll reiterate that I have no idea why some people don't get an answer - it's not my place to judge that at all.

Yes - good effort shows that you are serious and sincere about finding God. Just merely asking God, "Where are you?" - is usually a poor and lazy question. If I was "God", and someone asked me where was I in a half-hearted way, why should I respond? If you really want to know, you have to work for it. All good things come to those who work and prove that they want the answer.

There are many possible reasons why people don't get an answer, but whatever they are, it's between the individual and God. It's no one's place to judge someone else for their lack of answer.

One more thing - sometimes people don't believe various religions, and that's usually for good reasons. Consequently - they avoid taking risks to find out if any of them are true. Appearances can be deceiving - but how do you know if this or that religion is legitimately false? Risks *must* be taken if you want to know the truth.

5. I don't have to know about other people, just myself. God doesn't tell us to go ask the Mormon missionaries (or any other person) what to believe or what is true or what is the next step I should take in my life. He tells us to ask Him directly. Some people mess up with that, but that doesn't mean I need to avoid the process. When I have received knowledge, confirmation of truth, or direction from Him, I know that it is true. I know it in a much stronger way than I do through my senses. I cannot prove this, so there we are.

He's right - I have had similar experiences, hundreds of times. We can't prove it, but the only way to do so is take a risk and ask God directly if certain things are true, following Moroni's suggestions.
 
Overman hardily supports these moderated debate threads. Cool idea.
 
We get an idea or a notion of what it is, but it's not entirely clear. All we know is that it's like a mark against the individual when the person trangresses the law willingly. That's the key word - *willingly*. The person knowingly and willingly breaks the laws as set forth by God. Once you have sin, you cannot have it removed except through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Otherwise, it must be paid for.
Where do these laws come from and why are they important? Why can't I kill people?

God can't abide sin *where he lives*. Earth was specifically created for sin to exist, with influence from Satan. If someone willingly drowned children and knew that it was wrong (regardless of knowing God's laws or not), then that would perhaps be a sin (a big one, nonetheless).
You are being inconsistent in your definitions. You will need to redifine (see above).

Why can god drown innocent children?

Since God has *all* of the facts and knows everything about everyone's situation, he is qualified to judge what's to be done. The commandments and laws that he gives to human beings are meant for *us*, because we don't have all the information to judge fairly on what to do.
This really tells us nothing. In the end killing children isn't inherently wrong it is just an arbitrary prohibition against a specific act.

It's not our call to make when killing or hurting people because we just don't have all the information. It's sin when we human beings *intend* to hurt others. When it's unintentional, it may or may not be sin - just merely a trangression of the law in question.
Why is it sin when we intend to hurt others? What does not having all of the information have to do with anything?
 
So I really don't intend to have empty rhetoric at all or be a troll - give me a chance to make some more posts. Please don't judge me so quickly, all right?
Then please, please, spare us the empty rhetoric, fair enough?

It wasn't meant to be backhanded or insincere - quite the opposite, in fact. I mean everything I say, and I have nothing to hide (like you said in another post ;)).
It was backhanded. If I said, "I'm sorry you are stupid" that is backhanded. If you don't intend to be backhanded then don't be.

I'm simply reporting what I know and what I think about these topics, that's all.
How about leaving out the part that you are sad because we are going to hell, fair enough?

Really? How do you know it's all a fiction?
I didn't say that it is all fiction. Please don't put words in my mouth. I know that what the church teaches is woefully incomplete (typical of propaganda).

Actually, I'm hard of hearing so I don't understand videos unless there are subtitles.
Hence two sources, one written the other a video.
 

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