Oh, no! I just lost my big reply I was writing - I just finished, and I had links to give, but I have not yet reached 15 posts. Consequently, I pushed Post Reply and then the warning came up and I lost all of what I was saying.
Yikes! I've had that happen before, and it can be very frustrating.
A question - do you think there may be a specific action or process that needs to be done in order to get the specific answer you want? Vague queries don't work too well, don't you think? "God, are you there?" and you might get an answer that *might* be questionable if it really was from God or not. In my previous reply, I had suddenly thought of an idea - it's like a map to a treasure. Many people are looking for treasure (God), yeah? And the map is something that lists specific details and actions which are needed to reach the treasure. In other words, perhaps there's something specific that needs to be done so that God can finally reveal himself to you.
This is a very interesting take. It is also odd, because after I was convinced that my brand of Christianity was not the correct route, my prayer became much like Joseph Smith's ("Which denomination is right? Point me in the right direction.") I wonder why his prayer was supposedly answered, and mine wasn't. I can assure you I was quite sincere, as my entire world seemed to be falling apart around me.
Oh, that is what I'm saying, yes - the early Christian church as led by Jesus and Peter had the same doctrines as the LDS Church does now. There are practices and doctrines that are found in the LDS Church which are spoken of in the New Testament but are not commonly found in many mainstream Christian churches. Three things come to mind: 1 - 1 Corinthians 15:29 - "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?" That refers to temple work for those who are dead and are in need of saving ordinances. 2 - Various mentions of laying on of hands in several blessings documented in the New Testament - this is the power of God manifested in such blessings, and I have seen it manifested through the laying on of hands - and it only works if the authority is present. Men in the LDS Church have this authority. And 3 - Ephesians 4:11 - "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" - we have these types of people in our organizational hierarchy.
There are others to be sure, but those three come to mind.
I know that there are verses of the Bible which can be interpreted in a Mormon light. This may or may not be retrofitting. I am interested more in the actions of the early church. Certainly nothing in the
Didache resembles the peculiarities of Mormonism, and the LDS Faith seems nothing at all like the faith of the church fathers (Clement, Polycarp, etc.). I know the belief is that the church was corrupted fairly quickly, but is this based on some sort of evidence, or just on the fact that we can't find Mormon practices in the early church records?
The LDS Church is emphatic that God can and does answer directly to specific queries, whether the person is asking about the validity of the Book of Mormon, or if Joseph Smith was indeed a true prophet of God, or some specific question. And such queries are answered directly with the Holy Spirit, whose role is to confirm the truth of all things.
Why would God nitpick? What is the thought process there? "Wow, prewitt81 is really having a hard time with his faith. If only he knew the secret special prayer. Oh well, back to making sure the Cubs don't win another pennant!"
Heh - interesting comments. Well, really, you say you've met and known several LDS members, IIRC - would they be suffering from quirks in rationality or confirmation bias? Are they all fooled? Me and my family? The people I met in England who were converted? I really hope you are not simplifying all of my and their experiences - because if you are, you are making a fundamental mistake - ignoring the complexities of such experiences across cultures, ages, upbringings, knowledge, personalities, and so on.
I'm sure someone else has made this point, but has every Muslim been fooled? Has every Catholic been fooled? Have all those who have converted to Pentecostalism in Africa been fooled? I would answer yes to all of the above.
Yes - good effort shows that you are serious and sincere about finding God. Just merely asking God, "Where are you?" - is usually a poor and lazy question. If I was "God", and someone asked me where was I in a half-hearted way, why should I respond?
If I were "God", I would love my creation enough to give revelation to everyone instead of a few shady, untrustworthy characters. Or, if I was adamant about letting people decide for themselves, I would not make the stakes so high if they made the wrong choice.
Am I doing that? Where have I said this? I *don't* judge people like that at all. Please - give me time and as we discuss more and more, you'll understand me better as a person, all right?
I believe you are a sincere person. However, it seems to me that there is no way, in your perception of the world, that someone can honestly and sincerely follow Moroni's advice and not receive an answer. When confronted with honest, sincere people who have tried this out and not received an answer, you either consciously or unconsciously conclude that they are doing something wrong.
Ah - but since I'm assuming you have never gotten the answer in the form of the Holy Spirit, I don't expect you to understand, because there is nothing like the Holy Spirit. It's a very powerful source of testimony. It just happens that testimony can be diminished or forgotten through the trials of life and people do leave the Church for various reasons, having lost their testimonies or an inability to continue to follow the practices of the LDS Church.
This is a textbook example of mislabeling belief as "knowledge". If the witness of the Holy Spirit is powerful enough that it becomes knowledge, how is it that it can be diminished or forgotten? It sounds like this "knowledge" is on shaky ground.
God works by revelation, through subjective experiences. Scientific evidence isn't going to be there - never will be. You are left with personal experiences from people who say they know God exists.
Exactly. And with so many people saying so many things, each with their own spirit of truth, one sounds no different than the other to an outsider. If one of them really is the Supreme Ultimate Truth, it should stand out. Mormonism fails to do this just as much as the rest of them.
