Can this qualify as a challenge?

[GzuzKryzt]

This is a good example of the reason for the changes to the challenge.

Not quite as good as the example from last week's SWIFT but I agree, it does the trick because:

1. PeaceCrusader has most likely done no research on the Challenge Rules.
2. He seems unable to follow even the basic necessities of said rules which require:
2a. A clearly worded brief description of the claim.
2b. A success/failure scenario
2c. A protocol proposal.

There is a Million Dollar Prize.
Shouldn't that enable one to follow simple procedures, which pose no problem for an average eight grader?



"What the fruit?"
[/Frank Caliendo]

 

[Jackalgirl]

...Because He does not want people to believe in Him just because they saw a “miracle”. He wants them to believe in Him and have faith in Him always.

Plus, there's always the "out" that even if a miracle /did/ occur, people would just forget about it and go on their normal business anyway, especially if the required changes due to the "miracle" upset the status quo too much. Which I think is human nature and would probably happen, even if God appeared in some form on national TV, all surrounded by fire, simultaneously speaking in all languages and it was caught on tape. "Nice effects! Did you get ILM for that?"

However, for the more mundane purposes of the Challenge, the claim has to be testable. If your spirit wants you to win $1 Mil (to give to a charity, to use for your own mission, etc) and to gain some recognition, then your spirit will (hopefully) go along with the test.

If not, then what you're left with is faith, not proof. Personally, I'm one of those folks who does not have a problem with faith, as long as people don't go trumpeting it as fact: "fact" involves science and requires validation. "Faith" (or "Truth") is philosophical in nature and is fine as long as it does not stray into the arena of "fact" without some form of testability.

So if this ends up being a test of your faith, or if the spirit requires you to believe in He/She/It despite a lack of objective testing, that's fine...just please don't go telling people that you have access to "fact" through this spirit, or that the existance of the spirit itself is a "fact".

 

[Cuddles]

Instead of GOT-ACURE-AL, even assuming your logic, you could read it as GOT-A-CURE-AL, i.e. something that can be cured.

I actually read it straight off as GOT-A-CUREALL. Clearly it's not just something that can be cured, but we're going to discover something that can cure everything. In fact, a whole plague of things that can cure everything. Hooray!

 

[Loss Leader]

So if this ends up being a test of your faith, or if the spirit requires you to believe in He/She/It despite a lack of objective testing, that's fine...just please don't go telling people that you have access to "fact" through this spirit, or that the existance of the spirit itself is a "fact".

And that's the nicest way to say that.

 

[Reno]

If not, then what you're left with is faith, not proof. Personally, I'm one of those folks who does not have a problem with faith, as long as people don't go trumpeting it as fact: "fact" involves science and requires validation. "Faith" (or "Truth") is philosophical in nature and is fine as long as it does not stray into the arena of "fact" without some form of testability.

So if this ends up being a test of your faith, or if the spirit requires you to believe in He/She/It despite a lack of objective testing, that's fine...just please don't go telling people that you have access to "fact" through this spirit, or that the existance of the spirit itself is a "fact".

I'm often asked by friends and colleagues why I don't rant and rave about religion the way I (apparantly!) rant and rave about psychics. I've never really had a concise, coherent and polite way of explaining it. Until now.

Thanks Jackalgirl

 

[petre]

Can we just swat away all postdictions with:

1. If it can be determined with scientific means, then knowledge of it is not paranormal.
2. If it cannot be determined with scientific means, then it is ineligable for the challenge.

The only exception to the above would be any piece of knowlege for which it can be shown unknowable at the time of the challenge, and verifiable after.

The sealed boxes are a good example. I believe there is more than one sealed container at JREF already.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Loss Leader, Psiload, Jackalgirl, Thabiguy, Big Al, Cuddles, and Fellow Forumers,

Thank you to all those who gave optimistic comments and views regarding GOTACURAL. As I have stated in post #56, the spirit said in 1986 that the GOTACURAL disease He mentioned in His 1979 prophecy is AIDS and that a cure will never be found.

It has been more than 25 years since AIDS first appeared and still no cure has been found. Even the best in the medical profession and massive funding poured into research to find the elusive cure or vaccine, still, a cure or vaccine has not been found.

Do you know how we can avoid catching AIDS?

This is a sideshow of the main topic at hand. However, it only shows that the spirit can give unbelievable prophecies and still be found to be right. As I have written in my last post, if the spirit will be tested of what are inside a sealed box, He can easily name all of them correctly. I hope that He will accept the test. I will let you know as soon as I receive a reply.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,

If not, then what you're left with is faith, not proof. Personally, I'm one of those folks who does not have a problem with faith, as long as people don't go trumpeting it as fact: "fact" involves science and requires validation. "Faith" (or "Truth") is philosophical in nature and is fine as long as it does not stray into the arena of "fact" without some form of testability.

So if this ends up being a test of your faith, or if the spirit requires you to believe in He/She/It despite a lack of objective testing, that's fine...just please don't go telling people that you have access to "fact" through this spirit, or that the existance of the spirit itself is a "fact".

I know that people here will deny the existence of the spirit. That is why, the challenge that I raised is not to test His existence but to test what He revealed--the date when Jesus was born (May 23) and the date when He was crucified and died (August 17).

I have both faith and fact--faith that we (plural) talk to a spirit who we cannot see but can hear and tape record what transpires in our sessions with Him, and faith that the experience is real and that He exists.

You may visit my postings in alt.religion.christian under the following topics:
1. How is it like in Heaven? In Hell? - posted November 16, 2006
2. The truth about Jesus and Mary Magdalene - post May 25, 2006

These postings contain the translation to English of our conversation with the spirit. It is up to you if you will believe them or not.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Cuddles]

a cure will never be found.

a cure or vaccine has not been found.

You do see that these statements are in no way the same?

In any case, 25 years is an extremely short time in medicine. How long do you think humans have had colds without finding a cure? Actually finding a cure for an entirely new disease within 25 years of it being identified would be far more miraculous than someone predicting this.

However, it only shows that the spirit can give unbelievable prophecies and still be found to be right.

No it doesn't. All it shows is that you can give unbelievable prophecies. You have yet to show either that they are right or that they actually came from a spirit. In fact, a prophecy including the word "never" can never been proven right because you would need to wait an infinite length of time to see if the event ever actually happened.

 

[chillzero]

I have both faith and fact--faith that we (plural) talk to a spirit who we cannot see but can hear and tape record what transpires in our sessions with Him, and faith that the experience is real and that He exists.

So, we would like to see the fact.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Dear Jackalgirl and Fellow Forumers,

I know that people here will deny the existence of the spirit. That is why, the challenge that I raised is not to test His existence but to test what He revealed--the date when Jesus was born (May 23) and the date when He was crucified and died (August 17).

I have both faith and fact--faith that we (plural) talk to a spirit who we cannot see but can hear and tape record what transpires in our sessions with Him, and faith that the experience is real and that He exists.
...

Personally, I do not deny the existence of spirits. But I have seen no valid evidence yet as to their existence. A successful Challenge of yours might convince me otherwise, PeaceCrusader.

Therefore, and with the neat USD 1,000,000 reward in mind, please consider refraining from preaching and post here:

1. A clearly worded brief exact description of the claim.
2. A success/failure scenario.
3. A protocol proposal.

 

[Loss Leader]

Do you know how we can avoid catching AIDS?

Um ... yes.

However, it only shows that the spirit can give unbelievable prophecies and still be found to be right.

No, it does not. First of all, the prophecy about a disease was not that unbelievable. We have been encountering new diseases and discovering that some symptoms actually constitute separate diseases for hundreds of years. Schizophrenia is a disease discovered within the last hundred years (and constantly refined and redefined) for which there is no cure.

Second of all, the prophesy was not right. The prophesy said a disease known as GOTACURAL would arise. It did NOT say that a disease known to PeaceCrusader as GOTACURAL and known to everyone else by another name would arise.

Whether GOTACURAL is AIDS or not, the disease has never been known by that name. The prophesy was wrong.

I have both faith and fact--faith that we (plural) talk to a spirit who we cannot see but can hear and tape record what transpires in our sessions with Him, and faith that the experience is real and that He exists.

PC - Do you and several others sit in a dark room while a medium contacts this spirit? Do you have the lights on or off when hearing from the spirit? Have you ever heard from the spirit when you were completely alone?

 

[ben m]

PeaceCrusader, let's suppose that you were accepted for the challenge. JREF would have to find scientific proof that Jesus was born on thus-and-such a date. What could this proof possibly consist of? Any ideas?

Let's suppose that the proof would be, say, the discovery of a newinformation---say, Herod's census records---on a newly-reassembled Dead Sea Scroll. The problem is, PeaceCrusader, this proof is, by necessity, already there. If JREF can find the proof (such as is needed to validate your claim), then anybody can find it. Most importantly, you can also have found it already (in order to fabricate your claim).

It's sort of like saying, "An angel came to me and told me that there is a silver dollar in my left jacket pocket."

"A disease known as GOTACURAL will occur in epidemic proportions all over the land, and such disease will be incurable even by the known specialists of the medical profession."

You recieved this prophecy in 1979, and the disease "turned out to be AIDS"? If you had made that prophecy in 1900, the disease would have "turned out to be" polio. In 1915 it would have "turned out to be" influenza. In 1950 it would have turned out to be Asian flu, in 1960 it would have been Hong Kong flu. In 2000 it would have "turned out to be" SARS. I'll go ahead and make it myself: "Some time between 2007 and 2027, there will be an epidemic disease called Q'LOQQO, but I may have the name wrong." There now---I'm almost certainly right, and I didn't need an angel at all.

 

[Moochie]

PC, your condition is treatable, even if there is no outright cure for it.

M.

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

You may visit my postings in alt.religion.christian under the following topics:
1. How is it like in Heaven? In Hell? - posted November 16, 2006
2. The truth about Jesus and Mary Magdalene - post May 25, 2006

Thanks, I'll be sure to not rush right over there and read them.

 

[Doc Daneeka]

After having just read this entire thread through, i must note that the skeptics in this room seem to display patience that boggles the mind. Kudos to you, i guess.

There's a small leather bag sitting on my desk, in my bedroom. In it is a small object, easily recognisable. If the spirit can tell me what it is at some point during the next week, i will become a theist.

Sadly for god, this 'spirit' won't accept this challenge. Sadly for god, i'll end up remaining an atheist. Woe unto my soul, lol.

 

[webfusion]

Doc, since you're a 'Doc' it would likely be a stethescope, in your bag.

 

[Jackalgirl]

I know that people here will deny the existence of the spirit. That is why, the challenge that I raised is not to test His existence but to test what He revealed--the date when Jesus was born (May 23) and the date when He was crucified and died (August 17).

We've already explained that this would not make a satisfactory test, and why (it is untestable). Again, you will have to come up with something else.

I have both faith and fact--faith that we (plural) talk to a spirit who we cannot see but can hear and tape record what transpires in our sessions with Him, and faith that the experience is real and that He exists.

You say you have faith and fact, but then you give two instances of faith. Remember, "fact" is testable, observable, and above all OBJECTIVE (that is, not subject to interpretation). Again, if you want to demonstrate that this spirit is factual, you will have to provide verifiable, testable factual information. Stay away from Jesus-related dates, as we have already (several times) explained why they won't fly.

You may visit my postings in alt.religion.christian under the following topics:
1. How is it like in Heaven? In Hell? - posted November 16, 2006
2. The truth about Jesus and Mary Magdalene - post May 25, 2006

These postings contain the translation to English of our conversation with the spirit. It is up to you if you will believe them or not.

Sorry, not interested. None of that information is testable. I'm not interested in discussing issues of faith here -- this is the JREF Challenge forum, so I am only interested in discussing objective, testable, verifiable information.

 

[Pro7]

oh noes not another "prophet yahweh"

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Loss Leader and Fellow Forumers,

Second of all, the prophesy was not right. The prophesy said a disease known as GOTACURAL would arise. It did NOT say that a disease known to PeaceCrusader as GOTACURAL and known to everyone else by another name would arise.

Whether GOTACURAL is AIDS or not, the disease has never been known by that name. The prophesy was wrong.

I wrote earlier that in 1982, I was monitoring world events and looking for a disease known as GOTACURAL. Nothing. In 1984, still nothing. Then, that year, when AIDS was becoming a great concern, it came to my mind that GOT (past tense of get) may be the A in AIDS which stands for “Acquired” and which is synonymous to “got”. In 1986, I asked the spirit if the disease GOTACURAL He gave in 1979 is AIDS and He said yes. So it’s a confirmation directly from the one who gave the name GOTACURAL that the disease is none other than AIDS.

PC - Do you and several others sit in a dark room while a medium contacts this spirit? Do you have the lights on or off when hearing from the spirit? Have you ever heard from the spirit when you were completely alone?

The medium is a woman by the name of Maria Liwayway Alvaran in the province of Bulacan in the Philippines, aged nearing her 70s. Her body is appropriated by a spirit. Is this what is called “channeling” or “in-dwelling”? I do not know what the term is used to describe it.

Our experience is like this: The spirit of the woman leaves her body through the fontanel with a sound like blowing through a pipe. Then the spirit of Ama, the name we call Him, enters the body through the fontanel also and with the same kind of sound. So there is manifestation of the exit of the spirit of the woman and entry of the spirit of Ama. One may put his ears near the fontanel and be able to hear the sound coming from that area and not from the mouth or nose.

Once the spirit of Ama is in the body of the woman, He greets the listeners with a low, baritone voice of a man and not that of the female voice of the woman. I noticed also that the wisdom and mannerisms of Ama and the woman are different. So the woman is not impersonating anybody but it is a different spirit that is in her body and using it to talk to people.

The listeners present call this communication with the spirit as session. The sessions happen usually during Sunday and during the day. There maybe one, two or three sessions during the day which last up to maybe 45 minutes. I noticed that there are times when my 90-minute TDK tape is about to end, that is the time when the spirit ends the session. One side of the tape is 45 minutes.

Before the session ends, the spirit of Ama gives his blessing to the people and then leaves the body with a similar sound like earlier which comes from the fontanel. After Ama’s spirit has exited, then the spirit of the woman re-enters her body with that familiar sound.

Since I am in Australia now, I am not present during the sessions. But I receive copies of tapes of the sessions held. Now, the sessions are becoming less frequent and are much shorter (maybe less than five minutes). It seems that we are being prepared and conditioned to the eventual cutoff of communication with Ama. I guess this will happen when the woman dies.

My last communication with the spirit of Ama was in April 2005 when I went to the Philippines. A part of the session can be found in what I posted in alt.religion.christian under the title “The truth about Jesus and Mary Magdalene” on May 25, 2006.

I cannot hear Him nor talk to Him unless I go to the Philippines and attend the sessions. However, I know that the spirit of Ama is present with the “knocking” of lizards or geckoes, at home and at work. That is the signal that He told us that He is present and watching over us.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo