Can this qualify as a challenge?

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear GzuzKryzt and my Fellowmen,

PeaceCrusader, deducing might not be good enough to stand up as valid proof for you claim.

Also, it is not up to us to deny something. It is on you to prove your claim.

You said scientifically. What exactly did you mean by that?

The spirit did not specifically say 1 BC but from one sermon, He is referring to a 1 BC crucifixion and death year. Hence, combining His earlier revelation of August 17 to 1 BC, we come out with a date of August 17, 1 BC.

I will try to prove scientifically that the crucifixion and death date of August 17, 1 BC and birth date of May 23, 33 BC are correct. When I say scientifically, I mean, I will try to use known facts, such as the Jewish calendar, Jewish festivals, historical accounts of known historian, Jewish traditions, etc. I hope these are acceptable to you and JREF.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Loss Leader and my Fellowmen,

PeaceCrusader, I don't speak for the JREF but I think you have a serious logical problem with your challenge: How are we supposed to determine if the dates revealed by this spirit for a past event are correct? There are only two ways:

1) Paranormally - In that case, our information would be as unverifiable and unreliable as yours. How could we say that your dates are right?

2) Through Normal Research - If normal scholarly research supports these past dates, then anyone could have done the research to discover them. How could we say that you found these dates paranormally and not by, say, reading one of the many, many sources that actually tries to reconstruct when Jesus was born and when he was crucified?

Can you explain how you would like us to verify your information? And can you explain how you would like to prove that you got your information from a spirit and not at the library?

I mentioned earlier that we can talk to the spirit but we cannot see Him. And our sessions with Him are tape recorded. Will the tape recordings be acceptable to you and JREF to prove that we can talk to a spirit?

The dates that the spirit revealed are far off from the "many sources that actually tried to reconstruct when Jesus was born and when he was crucified." So I am not influenced by those "many sources". Instead, I will try to verify that the dates the spirit revealed are correct--scientifically.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[CynicalSkeptic]

Assuming that you can verify your dates as you say...
As I said earlier in the thread, and LossLeader said recently, how do we know you didn't work out these dates through historical/scientific means, and just make up the paranormal revelation? Your new research could just be duplicating what you've already done.

And I don't think an audiotape of your spirit's revelation is going to hold up either.

 

[Mojo]

The dates that the spirit revealed are far off from the "many sources that actually tried to reconstruct when Jesus was born and when he was crucified." So I am not influenced by those "many sources". Instead, I will try to verify that the dates the spirit revealed are correct--scientifically.

How do you plan to do this without reference to the historical sources which, as you say, give dates "far off" the ones you are proposing? It will not be possible to make direct observations of events that happened over 2,000 years ago.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Loss Leader and my Fellowmen,

Oh, I hope he wasn't crucified in August. I mean, it's just so hot in August - especially in Israel. August just could not have made that experience very pleasant. I submit that we believe Jesus was crucified on a slightly breezy Sunday morning in mid-March.

True, it is summertime in Israel in August. It also means that the day is not only hot but long that the Jewish Sabbath came later than 6 PM and people can stay outdoor longer.

The revelation of a crucifixion on August 17 defies the usually-accepted date sometime in March or April. That is why we have to test if the revelation is correct.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Psiload]

I don't get it. What is even remotely paranormal/challenge-worthy about identifying the correct date of some guy's execution?

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear CynicalSkeptic and my Fellowmen,

Assuming that you can verify your dates as you say...
As I said earlier in the thread, and LossLeader said recently, how do we know you didn't work out these dates through historical/scientific means, and just make up the paranormal revelation? Your new research could just be duplicating what you've already done.

And I don't think an audiotape of your spirit's revelation is going to hold up either.

How do you think the dates can be proven without relying on historical/scientific means? In the first place, I did not pick up those dates from thin air. They were revealed. And I am just trying to verify if the dates are correct based on historical/scientific means.

If you doubt the audio tape recordings, then we may ignore them and just concentrate on the dates revealed. The probability of the birth date to be May 23, 33 BC is about one in 11,000 dates. The probability of the crucifixion date to be August 17 is about one in 11,000 dates also. What is the probability that both dates would be correct?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Psiload]

Dear CynicalSkeptic and my Fellowmen,



How do you think the dates can be proven without relying on historical/scientific means? In the first place, I did not pick up those dates from thin air. They were revealed. And I am just trying to verify if the dates are correct based on historical/scientific means.

If you doubt the audio tape recordings, then we may ignore them and just concentrate on the dates revealed. The probability of the birth date to be May 23, 33 BC is about one in 11,000 dates. The probability of the crucifixion date to be August 17 is about one in 11,000 dates also. What is the probability that both dates would be correct?

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Again... what makes you think that you should be awarded one million dollars for identifying the correct date on which some poor schlub was snuffed?

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Mojo and my Fellowmen,

How do you plan to do this without reference to the historical sources which, as you say, give dates "far off" the ones you are proposing? It will not be possible to make direct observations of events that happened over 2,000 years ago.

You are right. I will not only try to verify the veracity of the revealed dates scientifically but also historically. Accounts made by historians will be utilized as well. And Jewish traditions, the Jewish calendar, the Jewish festivals, etc.

Did you know the effects of these revelations if found correct? We may have to re-write our history books, especially those events around 1 BC and the BC era. At present, the reference point used is a 1 BC birth of Jesus. James Randi would be credited to this "re-discovery".

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Psiload and my Fellowmen,

I don't get it. What is even remotely paranormal/challenge-worthy about identifying the correct date of some guy's execution?

Did you know that a billion Christians are relying on the correct dates of Jesus' birth and crucifixion? Don't you think that a billion people is a significant number?

Many people believe that Jesus was not born on December 25 and yet, we celebrate Christmas on that date. It has to be corrected if proven with your probing minds. The same with His death which is observed on an annoying movable date yearly. Don't you think that it should be observed at the same time and season every year? We are using a solar calendar and not a lunar or lunisolar calendar.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Loss Leader]

Did you know that a billion Christians are relying on the correct dates of Jesus' birth and crucifixion? Don't you think that a billion people is a significant number?

Many people believe that Jesus was not born on December 25 and yet, we celebrate Christmas on that date. It has to be corrected if proven with your probing minds. The same with His death which is an annoying movable date. Don't you think that it should observed at the same time and season every year? We are using a solar calendar and not a lunar or lunisolar calendar.

PeaceCrusader, I have just done a pretty simple web search and found hundreds of websites which proclaim that Jesus was not born on December 25 and making all sorts of guesses about his real birthday (many putting it in September). Furthermore, I have found many sources which confirm that December 25 was appropriated by the early christians from one or more pagan holidays (Saturnia being the most well-known).

It appears that there is widespread belief throughout the christian world that Jesus was not born on December 25. Likewise, there appears to be widespread belief that Jesus was not born in 1 A.D.

Clearly, the christian world knows this information and does not care. There seems to be no interest in celebrating his birth on the correct day at all. In fact, if I recall, birthdays were not considered particularly important until modern times.

I, for one, don't see why anybody should care about the birth or death of Jesus one way or another. However, even for those who consider Jesus to be magic, nobody seems excited about changing the date of Christmas.

And even if finding the correct date of Jesus' birth meant something, and even if we could figure it out, you have still not shown us why we should believe that you obtained your information supernaturally rather than through research.

Can the spirit tell you about future events? We can test for those.

 

[Psiload]

Dear Psiload and my Fellowmen,

Did you know that a billion Christians are relying on the correct dates of Jesus' birth and crucifixion? Don't you think that a billion people is a significant number?

So... that would make 5 billion people who don't give a rat's patootie either way. Don't you think 5 biliion people is a significant number?

All this aside, you still haven't answered my question,- Why do you think the JREF should award you one million dollars simply for identifying the date of an historical event?

Many people believe that Jesus was not born on December 25 and yet, we celebrate Christmas on that date.

Because that was the date the Christian's decided to steal from the Pagan celebration of the winter solstice, and adopt as their own.

It has to be corrected if proven with your probing minds. The same with His death which is an annoying movable date. Don't you think that it should observed at the same time and season every year? We are using a solar calendar and not a lunar or lunisolar calendar.

Personally... I couldn't care less what days you picked to celebrate the birth, death, and birth V 2.0, of your imaginary sky god's son. You could use the free calendar you got at your dry cleaner's shop to keep track of it all for all I care.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

Warm fuzzies back at ya,
Psiloadicus Carpe Cerveza, Grand High Exalted Poobah and Head Bottle Washer

 

[Dumb All Over]

I mentioned earlier that we can talk to the spirit but we cannot see Him. And our sessions with Him are tape recorded. Will the tape recordings be acceptable to you and JREF to prove that we can talk to a spirit?

This alone is a much better claim than the dates of the birth and death. PeaceCrusader, consider dropping your original claim. It's not really testable and not really paranormal. However, this other claim about talking to and taping a spirit is something JREF might be very interested in. How about a protocol that would test your claim that you can tape record the voice of a spirit? Now, that would be superdupernatural.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Dumb All Over and my Fellowmen,

This alone is a much better claim than the dates of the birth and death. PeaceCrusader, consider dropping your original claim. It's not really testable and not really paranormal. However, this other claim about talking to and taping a spirit is something JREF might be very interested in. How about a protocol that would test your claim that you can tape record the voice of a spirit? Now, that would be superdupernatural.

The dates are just two of His revelations. And we can check these out. However, if you suggest that audio tape recording the voice of a spirit is more acceptable to JREF, I will gladly oblige. What is the consensus of the members? I understand that communicating with a spirit is paranormal. However, the dates are just examples of what He told us and which we can put to a test if correct.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[webfusion]

While answering several other posters, it is clear as water that PeaceCrusader has evaded my question ---

The same with His death which is observed on an annoying movable date yearly. Don't you think that it should be observed at the same time and season every year? We are using a solar calendar and not a lunar or lunisolar calendar.

Annoying movable date?

This negates the very concept of the Hebrew calendar, which is still followed, and is the only reliable dating system for the Jewish holidays and festivals and religious observances.

If you want to be taken seriously, PeaceCrusader, I strongly suggest that you immediately get in contact with your spirit, and obtain the Hebrew dates to the events which you refer to.

"May 23rd" is useless to the furtherance of your discussion. If you don't grasp that fact, then you are wasting our time.

"Elul", "Tishrei", "Av", etc. are the only proper designations for months, when talking about Jewish time measurements in the time frame of Zero BCE.

(Unless you want to go with the Essene calendar, which was solar-centric, but used alternative naming conventions other than "May" "June", "August", etc).

I hope you address these critical dating references in your next post, instead of going off in directions that contribute nothing to the search for an acceptable Challenge.


Thank you for your continued interest.

 

[Loss Leader]

However, if you suggest that audio tape recording the voice of a spirit is more acceptable to JREF, I will gladly oblige. What is the consensus of the members? I understand that communicating with a spirit is paranormal.

PC - This type of test would be simplicity in itself. The you and the tester would each provide one or more tape recorders. You enter a room with a tester, the recorders and a video camera. You are checked for electronic devices with a magnet. One directional microphone is aimed at you and one omnidirectional microphone is left in the middle of the room. You do whatever the heck it is you do to produce the voice. After it is produced, you get a million dollars.

*I am not affiliated with JREF and the above is a suggested protocol that would have to be refined and approved.
.

 

[Loss Leader]

This negates the very concept of the Hebrew calendar, which is still followed, and is the only reliable dating system for the Jewish holidays and festivals and religious observances.

Well, by definition the Jewish calender is the only reliable way of dating Jewish holidays. It's a self-referential explanation.

I don't think anyone will argue that our current calender is a much better way to ensure that the earth is in exactly the same place in its orbit of the sun from one anniversary date to the next.

However, this begs the question of why anyone should find it at all important to make sure the earth is in exactly the same place as it was the last time a holiday was celebrated. Except for agriculture, it's a pretty arbitrary interval of time.

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Loss Leader and my Fellowmen,

PeaceCrusader, I have just done a pretty simple web search and found hundreds of websites which proclaim that Jesus was not born on December 25 and making all sorts of guesses about his real birthday (many putting it in September). Furthermore, I have found many sources which confirm that December 25 was appropriated by the early christians from one or more pagan holidays (Saturnia being the most well-known).

It appears that there is widespread belief throughout the christian world that Jesus was not born on December 25. Likewise, there appears to be widespread belief that Jesus was not born in 1 A.D.

Clearly, the christian world knows this information and does not care. There seems to be no interest in celebrating his birth on the correct day at all. In fact, if I recall, birthdays were not considered particularly important until modern times.

I, for one, don't see why anybody should care about the birth or death of Jesus one way or another. However, even for those who consider Jesus to be magic, nobody seems excited about changing the date of Christmas.

And even if finding the correct date of Jesus' birth meant something, and even if we could figure it out, you have still not shown us why we should believe that you obtained your information supernaturally rather than through research.

Can the spirit tell you about future events? We can test for those.

Thank you for searching the Internet about Jesus' birth. You may notice that no one has definitely pinpointed when Jesus was born. They just guessed.

I also acknowledge that the early Christians had adopted the pagan festival of Saturnalia in December as the birth of Jesus in the Roman Empire. This is happening, I think, also these days. Since Christmas is a Christian festival, other countries which are not predominantly Christian appropriates it as a holiday, e.g. Japan, December 24, Emperor's Birthday Holiday (I do not know if the Japanese Emperor was really born on December 24); Taiwan, January 1, Founding of the Republic of China.

If we can prove the dates that the spirit revealed to be correct, then we can remove one of the causes of division of the Christian churches, and Christians could be united in celebrating or observing the events on their correct dates.

Would you like to know what will happen in the future? The spirit gave us many. There were 19 prophecies which were revealed on October 19, 1979 and published in a Sunday magazine supplement of a Manila daily newspaper. Twenty-seven years have passed so we can check if they have happened or not. One of them states: "A disease known as GOTACURAL will occur in epidemic proportions all over the land, and such disease will be incurable even by the known specialists of the medical profession." This disease turned out to be AIDS. Has a cure been found already?

How about babies (plural) who will be born with three eyes? Would you believe this prophecy? I have not encountered one yet but I firmly believe that it will happen.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[PeaceCrusader]

Dear Webfusion and my Fellowmen,


May 23, 33 BC is equivalent to Sivan 10, 3728 in the Jewish calendar. It was a Thursday.

August 17, 1 BC is equivalent to Av 30, 3760 in the Jewish calendar. It was also a Thursday.

May 23, 33 BC and August 17, 1 BC are proleptic Gregorian calendar dates. Proleptic because the Gregorian calendar was implemented only in AD 1582.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

 

[Psiload]

Dear Loss Leader and my Fellowmen,



Thank you for searching the Internet about Jesus' birth. You may notice that no one has definitely pinpointed when Jesus was born. They just guessed.

I also acknowledge that the early Christians had adopted the pagan festival of Saturnalia in December as the birth of Jesus in the Roman Empire. This is happening, I think, also these days. Since Christmas is a Christian festival, other countries which are not predominantly Christian appropriates it as a holiday, e.g. Japan, December 24, Emperor's Birthday Holiday (I do not know if the Japanese Emperor was really born on December 24); Taiwan, January 1, Founding of the Republic of China.

If we can prove the dates that the spirit revealed to be correct, then we can remove one of the causes of division of the Christian churches, and Christians could be united in celebrating or observing the events on their correct dates.

Would you like to know what will happen in the future? The spirit gave us many. There were 19 prophecies which were revealed on October 19, 1979 and published in a Sunday magazine supplement of a Manila daily newspaper. Twenty-seven years have passed so we can check if they have happened or not. One of them states: "A disease known as GOTACURAL will occur in epidemic proportions all over the land, and such disease will be incurable even by the known specialists of the medical profession." This disease turned out to be AIDS. Has a cure been found already?

How about babies (plural) who will be born with three eyes? Would you believe this prophecy? I have not encountered one yet but I firmly believe that it will happen.

Best regards,
Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader and Echo

I take you are referring to these 19 amazingly underwhelming prophecies...

http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/prophecyidx.htm