"But Global Warming is a HOAX!!!"

[Lukraak_Sisser]

One of the things that perpetuates the hoax feeling in my country at least is the right-wing press.
Yesterday I saw an article which as a header (translated from dutch) had 'Airconditioning units can go away again, scientists predict colder winters soon'
The general gist is pretty much summed up in the header and the unspoken subtext was that climate scientists keep changing their minds (hotter! colder!).

What the article never really mentioned was that the reason for this prediction is the fact that the Gulf stream seems to be collapsing even faster than predicted and if that stops the winters in the Netherlands will stop being mild compared to it's latitude.
And the reason this is happening is due to the fact that the Arctic is becoming ice-free due to global warming.
And that even if this happens, our summers will still remain far hotter than they ever were.

By carefully omitting all the reasons they masterfully reinforced the feeling that all climate science is just guesswork.

 

[bruto]

Really, though, why do you people just take what you're fed as gospel? Are you not "skeptics"?

That's a very high horse you're riding. Your assumption that "you people" just take what we're fed, as if nobody here were capable of knowledge, research, evaluation or judgment as you is wildly arrogant. And that would be true even if your ultimate opinion on climate change were right.

 

[dann]

It's nothing but a diversionary tactic by the big polluters to push for ways in which individuals can reduce their private carbon footprint.

Indeed! We may wish it weren't so, but ...

 

[dann]

WATCH: Biden announces actions to protect people from extreme heat (Washington Post on YouTube, July 27, 2023)
Begins at 36:00, ends at 1:00:30:

President Biden delivers remarks and announces actions to protect communities from excessive heat on July 27.

I listened to Biden's speech again this morning.
Two things:
1) Climate change was a phrase coined by the fossil-fuel industry to replace global warming. I think Big Oil appreciated how Biden managed to avoid talking about anthropogenic (!) global (!) warming (!).
2) "Heat resilience" is the global-warming parallel to the pandemic's "learning to live with Covid."

Edited to add a [/I].

 

[Pixel42]

To be fair both terms - global warming and climate change - were in use in the scientific literature long before deniers decided the latter sounded least unpleasant and persuaded their lapdog journalists to switch to it. Global warming is the underlying trend, climate change is the consequences of that trend, which can include changes in rainfall patterns etc and even some regions getting colder when ocean currents change direction or disappear.

The IPCC has always been the IPCC, it didn't start off as the IPGW and then change its name at the behest of The Heartland Institute.

 

[dann]

Remarks by President Biden on Actions to Protect Communities from Extreme Heat (WhiteHouse.gov, July 27, 2023):

"We’ll talk about steps we’re taking to help people get through this tough time, ..."
What is he talking about? This summer? This century? This millennium?

"... and we’re also going to talk about steps we’re taking to help communities prepare, plan, and recover, and make our nation more resilient in future heat waves."
Because we know that this is going to continue and only get worse, so we might as well get used to it, adapt, right?! (And screw all the other nations that are as affected by this as the USA or more so without ever having contributed to the problem to the same degree.)

"I don’t think anybody can deny the impact of climate change anymore."
But we can still continue to deny what has caused and is still causing global warming. For instance, by not mentioning it.

"There used to be a time when I first got here — a lot of people said, “Oh, it’s not a problem.” Well, I don’t know anybody — well, I shouldn’t say that — I don’t know anybody who honestly believes climate change is not a serious problem."
Yes, almost nobody thinks it's not a problem, and the ones who say they don't aren't being honest. But what about the thing that causes the problem? Is it honest to pretend that it isn't there? The thing that industrialized nations, the USA first and foremost, have done to the planet?

Then he mentions a long list of bad consequences for America. This is just one of them:
"Experts say extreme heat is already costing America $100 billion a year."
Who gives a **** what it costs everybody else, right?!

"But none of this is inevitable."
Yes, it is! At this point, it actually is. It will continue and only get worse after the Arctic and Antarctic ice is all gone. Something can be done to prevent the planet from turning into Venus, but that is not what he mentions in his speech. This is:

"From day one of my administration, we’ve taken unprecedented action to combat the climate crisis that’s causing this. We’re using a law I got passed the first day in office — first month in office — called the American Rescue Plan, to help states and cities promote energy efficiency, reduce flooding, and open cooling centers."
Air conditioned cooling centers is just what the atmosphere needs!

"...upgrade the electric grid to withstra- — withstand stronger storms and heatwaves so we don’t cause more fires."
How about going wind and solar? Solar loves heat waves and doesn't contribute to them.

"Last year, my Department of Labor created the first-ever national program to protect workers from heat stress. "
Good! The employers who forbid their employees to drink water don't deserve to live. But how about protecting workers from heat stress by doing something to lower the heat - or at least not contributing to making it worse?

"... help cities and towns plant trees that in the long term will help repel the heat and expand access to green spaces so families have a place to go to cool off and to bring down the temperature in cities."
Good, but it still doesn't really do anything to prevent global warming, and planting trees doesn't really 'repel' the heat if CO₂ emissions continue. It just offers a bit of shade.

"In all my Investing in America agenda, we provided a record $50 billion for climate resiliency to restore wetlands, manage wildfires, help Americans (!) in every state withstand extreme heat."
Because we have to adapt to global warming instead of preventing it, right?!

"But our MAGA extremists in Congress are trying to undo all this progress."
Yes, of course they are, but what Biden is describing isn't progress. The only thing that is. progressing is anthropogenic global warming, and Biden won't even point out that this is what "our MAGA extremists" and everybody else who received money from Big Oil (and who doesn't?) are promoting.
Biden doesn't even dare mention the fact - probably because he fears the fossil fuel industry and auto manufacturers more than anthropogenic global warming.


"Stay indoors if you’re vulnerable. Be careful on hot pavement.
Know the signs of heat stroke, like headache, nausea, dizziness.
And always have water with you. That sounds silly, but always have a bottle of water with you when you’re outside."
Another parallel to the pandemic response: 'It's your responsibility if you're vulnerable! Stay away from indoor public spaces because we're gonna let it rip!'


Words and concepts missing:

global warming (warming in mentioned once: "the short-term (!!!) warming of the ocean"
CO₂
fossil fuel (and thus fossil fuel industry; in fact, industry is another one of those words that aren't there.)
greenhouse effect
emission (but mentioned twice by mayor Nirenberg: "San Antonio will launch its first-ever Advanced Rapid Transit line — bona fide mass transit for the city of San Antonio, a service that will only include low- or no-emission vehicles." (...) Communities across Texas have committed themselves to being greener, more equitable, and literally cooler, as nearly every major Texas city now has a long-term climate or emissions[/hilte] reduction strategy." I fear what exactly is meant by "long-term" in this context. Probably, 'some day in the distant future' - as always. ETA: The two words oil and gas are mentioned once:

So, working with our partners at the White House, with you and your team, I’m confident that the state best known for oil and gas production can help lead the way to a greener tomorrow.

Yeah, right! Because that's what oil and gas do, isn't it?! It's what their advertising always claims: Building a greener future! The way to a greener tomorrow!

 

[Hercules56]

Really, though, why do you people just take what you're fed as gospel? Are you not "skeptics"?

I know this may come as a shock, but there is such a thing as "informed & intelligent skepticism". Skepticism that's simply based on emotion, paranoia, general distrust in government institutions and baseless suspicion isn't very useful.

 

[Hercules56]

Remarks by President Biden on Actions to Protect Communities from Extreme Heat (WhiteHouse.gov, July 27, 2023):

"We’ll talk about steps we’re taking to help people get through this tough time, ..."
What is he talking about? This summer? This century? This millennium?

"... and we’re also going to talk about steps we’re taking to help communities prepare, plan, and recover, and make our nation more resilient in future heat waves."
Because we know that this is going to continue and only get worse, so we might as well get used to it, adapt, right?! (And screw all the other nations that are as affected by this as the USA or more so without ever having contributed to the problem to the same degree.)

"I don’t think anybody can deny the impact of climate change anymore."
But we can still continue to deny what has caused and is still causing global warming. For instance, by not mentioning it.

"There used to be a time when I first got here — a lot of people said, “Oh, it’s not a problem.” Well, I don’t know anybody — well, I shouldn’t say that — I don’t know anybody who honestly believes climate change is not a serious problem."
Yes, almost nobody thinks it's not a problem, and the ones who say they don't aren't being honest. But what about the thing that causes the problem? Is it honest to pretend that it isn't there? The thing that industrialized nations, the USA first and foremost, have done to the planet?

Then he mentions a long list of bad consequences for America. This is just one of them:
"Experts say extreme heat is already costing America $100 billion a year."
Who gives a **** what it costs everybody else, right?!

"But none of this is inevitable."
Yes, it is! At this point, it actually is. It will continue and only get worse after the Arctic and Antarctic ice is all gone. Something can be done to prevent the planet from turning into Venus, but that is not what he mentions in his speech. This is:

"From day one of my administration, we’ve taken unprecedented action to combat the climate crisis that’s causing this. We’re using a law I got passed the first day in office — first month in office — called the American Rescue Plan, to help states and cities promote energy efficiency, reduce flooding, and open cooling centers."
Air conditioned cooling centers is just what the atmosphere needs!

"...upgrade the electric grid to withstra- — withstand stronger storms and heatwaves so we don’t cause more fires."
How about going wind and solar? Solar loves heat waves and doesn't contribute to them.

"Last year, my Department of Labor created the first-ever national program to protect workers from heat stress. "
Good! The employers who forbid their employees to drink water don't deserve to live. But how about protecting workers from heat stress by doing something to lower the heat - or at least not contributing to making it worse?

"... help cities and towns plant trees that in the long term will help repel the heat and expand access to green spaces so families have a place to go to cool off and to bring down the temperature in cities."
Good, but it still doesn't really do anything to prevent global warming, and planting trees doesn't really 'repel' the heat if CO₂ emissions continue. It just offers a bit of shade.

"In all my Investing in America agenda, we provided a record $50 billion for climate resiliency to restore wetlands, manage wildfires, help Americans (!) in every state withstand extreme heat."
Because we have to adapt to global warming instead of preventing it, right?!

"But our MAGA extremists in Congress are trying to undo all this progress."
Yes, of course they are, but what Biden is describing isn't progress. The only thing that is. progressing is anthropogenic global warming, and Biden won't even point out that this is what "our MAGA extremists" and everybody else who received money from Big Oil (and who doesn't?) are promoting.
Biden doesn't even dare mention the fact - probably because he fears the fossil fuel industry and auto manufacturers more than anthropogenic global warming.


"Stay indoors if you’re vulnerable. Be careful on hot pavement.
Know the signs of heat stroke, like headache, nausea, dizziness.
And always have water with you. That sounds silly, but always have a bottle of water with you when you’re outside."
Another parallel to the pandemic response: 'It's your responsibility if you're vulnerable! Stay away from indoor public spaces because we're gonna let it rip!'


Words and concepts missing:

global warming (warming in mentioned once: "the short-term (!!!) warming of the ocean"
CO₂
fossil fuel (and thus fossil fuel industry; in fact, industry is another one of those words that aren't there.)
greenhouse effect
emission (but mentioned twice by mayor Nirenberg: "San Antonio will launch its first-ever Advanced Rapid Transit line — bona fide mass transit for the city of San Antonio, a service that will only include low- or no-emission vehicles." (...) Communities across Texas have committed themselves to being greener, more equitable, and literally cooler, as nearly every major Texas city now has a long-term climate or emissions[/hilte] reduction strategy." I fear what exactly is meant by "long-term" in this context. Probably, 'some day in the distant future' - as always. ETA: The two words oil and gas are mentioned once: Yeah, right! Because that's what oil and gas do, isn't it?! It's what their advertising always claims: Building a greener future! The way to a greener tomorrow!

If Biden and the Dems had complete control of Congress, we would have passed major reforms with a concrete target for reducing GHG emissions. But Sinema and Manchin stood in the way.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Whats that wakeup gonna be exactly??? In 30 years, we're mainly on renewable energy and it turns out it wasn't totally necessary? Oh well. Or that it wasn't enough and now its 110F instead of 104F(the actual temp is here right now) in July?

The peace and quite of electric cars in my old age instead of jack-ass-maga-mcfuckhead revving his F-250 or Camaro will be worth it by itself.

"But what if you're wrong and we make the world a better place for nothing?"

 

[dann]

If Biden and the Dems had complete control of Congress, we would have passed major reforms with a concrete target for reducing GHG emissions.

But Sinema and Manchin stood in the way.

Could have, would have, should have.
Do you see any sign of those alleged intentions in the speech?
I bet Big Oil loved it.

 

[Hercules56]

Could have, would have, should have.
Do you see any sign of those alleged intentions in the speech?
I bet Big Oil loved it.

Biden's big energy plan included big reductions in GHGs.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

To be fair both terms - global warming and climate change - were in use in the scientific literature long before deniers decided the latter sounded least unpleasant and persuaded their lapdog journalists to switch to it. Global warming is the underlying trend, climate change is the consequences of that trend, which can include changes in rainfall patterns etc and even some regions getting colder when ocean currents change direction or disappear.

The IPCC has always been the IPCC, it didn't start off as the IPGW and then change its name at the behest of The Heartland Institute.

Climate Change might sound less frightening but I think it's a more sensible term as it's harder for 'journalists' like (I think it was) Alison Pearson of the Torygraph saying 'well yes, June was the hottest on record but it's been relatively cool and rained virtually everyday for July, so much for global warming'. IIRC she actually said "Climate Change" so virtually every response was pointing out that unprecedented heat & rainfall is by definition 'change'.

 

[dirtywick]

Climate Change might sound less frightening but I think it's a more sensible term as it's harder for 'journalists' like (I think it was) Alison Pearson of the Torygraph saying 'well yes, June was the hottest on record but it's been relatively cool and rained virtually everyday for July, so much for global warming'. IIRC she actually said "Climate Change" so virtually every response was pointing out that unprecedented heat & rainfall is by definition 'change'.

i like climate change better. retardos can't say "oh why's it cold in winter" when you talk about it like they do with global warming.

 

[Glunn11]

If Biden and the Dems had complete control of Congress, we would have passed major reforms with a concrete target for reducing GHG emissions.



But Sinema and Manchin stood in the way.

I honestly don't know that I believe this. I've grown cynical of the party and think, if it were actually feasible electorally, what would actually end up implemented would be a pale, doesn't-start-until-2030 shadow of what they promised they were fighting for. Complete with 200 pages of pork.

I guess I'm a pessimist. But I reckon I should see how Dems have voted on attempts before I start running my mouth, eh? I have no doubt there is a sizeable element who absolutely give a damn, but I don't know if I think it's the majority.

Sent from my LM-G710VM using Tapatalk

 

[dann]

Biden's big energy plan included big reductions in GHGs.

1. Commit to cut total greenhouse gas emissions by at least 50% by 2030: Achieved. (Yes, achieved on paper. dann)

In April 2021, President Biden set a new national goal to reduce emissions by 50-52% from 2005 levels by 2030, formalizing it in an updated nationally determined contribution (NDC) under the Paris Agreement. Achieving this goal will be a major challenge, but it remains within reach thanks to progress made in 2022 (see #2).
Tracking Progress: Climate Action Under the Biden Administration (World Resource Institute, Jan 23, 2023)

Too little and much, much too late.

Washington Post, Thursday morning before the speech:

President Biden will address the punishing heat wave afflicting Washington and much of the rest of the country today — and some Democrats and climate activists want to see him use the moment to build support for further action on climate change.

“He needs to speak to the path forward, and it’s got to be more than just bottled water and cooling centers for the elderly,” said Rep. Jared Huffman (D-Calif.). “It’s got to be a really bold Marshall Plan for the planet.”
What Democrats want to hear in Biden’s climate speech (WP, July 27, 2023)

Jared Huffman must have been disappointed by the speech:

Stay indoors if you’re vulnerable. Be careful on hot pavement.
Know the signs of heat stroke, like headache, nausea, dizziness.
And always have water with you. That sounds silly, but always have a bottle of water with you when you’re outside.
(...)
We’re using a law I got passed the first day in office — first month in office — called the American Rescue Plan, to help states and cities promote energy efficiency, reduce flooding, and open cooling centers.
(...)
The Department of Housing and Urban Development is providing billions to communities to make buildings more efficient and to make more heat — make them more heat-resistant, opening cooling centers in — for residential areas and in the cities that the communities can go to to be safe.
(...)
Or go to the mall or community centers or movie theaters or libraries where there is air conditioning when you don’t have that air conditioning at home.
Take advantage of local cooling centers. Hundreds are being (!) built. They’re there for everyone, and they save lives. It matters.

 

[Myriad]

Back at you, novaphile! Stop posting ******** like this:



Congratulations with your hot showers, which you ought to understand was an example that I made up, instead of using one of the things you mentioned, but I obviously hit a sore spot with my comment, which is why you don't address my point at all.

The individual solutions to global warming work as well as trying to stop war by becoming a conscientious objector. (Which I was, by the way: an objector, but not particularly conscientious. I had no illusions that it was a way of stopping war, but I calculated that I would be less likely to be conscripted to participate in one even though it is no guarantee at all. It doesn't do anything to prevent wars because there are still plenty of nationalists everywhere who are more than willing to sacrifice their own lives and the lives of others when their war-faring nations call upon them to do so.)

So let me repeat what I was actually promoting. You know, the exact same thing that you wish you could order me to "stop posting": Much the same way that conscientious (!) objectors don't do anything to stop war, your personal (and other people's personal) sacrifice (or contribution ... whatever) to stop (or diminish) CO₂ emission doesn't do anything to actually stop it. It is nothing but virtue signaling, a way of feeling good about yourself - while letting ******** like Bill Maher continue to contribute to the greenhouse effect on a scale that cancels out whatever it is you take pride in doing. (That he is honest about it doesn't in any way cancel out what he is doing. Republicans love him for both flying a private jet and sticking it to the Libs at the same time!)

And you know this even though you don't want to admit that you know because you want to feel good about yourself while letting them continue to destroy the planet.
All you can tell yourself is that 'well, at least I didn't personally contribute to the CO₂ emissions', which isn't even true: Your Tesla no doubt did - unless it was manufactured using solar and wind exclusively to power the process, which I doubt is the case. (Even though industry might want you to think so when they are greensplaining how environmentally friendly their products are. It's a message that's easy to sell because people like to believe it.)

This is also the reason why I never describe e.g. my biking as my sacrifice or contribution to lower greenhouse gas emissions: It's not something that we have the power to control on an individual level at all, and it doesn't work unless it is implemented on a larger scale, like whole cities and infrastructure based on promoting it. 'Nudging' on a societal scale.
My concern isn't to feel good about myself. My concern is we must put a stop to this, an actual stop. And cold showers (which, as mentioned above, were just an example, carefully chosen not to be one of yours) don't do it. You may get a medal for it, but it does nothing whatsoever for the environment.

What is the individual to do, though, other than moderate their own consumption? How does that actual stop actually happen?

I did the political activism for a few years, lobbying for the then-proposed EPA clean electricity plan to be implemented in my home state. Carrying signs, standing on corners with petitions, manning a booth at fairs, writing letters, under the direction of a well-established environmental organization with a good track record. Went to the state capital to meet with sympathetic state legislators. Who told me flat out, "It's a Republican majority so it won't pass." Which it didn't.

Sabotaging refineries or other such direct action might have a more noticeable effect, but it would also cost lives (the more successful, the more lives, because one of the things ITTL has right is that most people cannot imagine the changes in life that would be necessary if fossil fuels were eliminated or significantly curtailed, but I can, and I know they would be fatal for many). I'm not willing to murder for the planet, because you know what, the planet will take care of itself and the murdering will happen without me striking any blow at anyone.

I do in fact take cold showers. I have for years, all cold except when ill. It saves money I can use to help improve my resiliency in other ways, it feels good, it's better for my easily-irritated skin, the bathroom doesn't steam up, I save time and water not having to adjust the water temperature just right and not standing there luxuriating, I don't have to worry about whether the hot water will run out or if it'll run out on someone else if I use it, it doesn't matter if someone else turns on a tap while I'm in there, and being physiologically accustomed to cold water gives me a lot more opportunities to go swimming here in New England. No medal. No illusions that I'm "saving the planet" (see above). But also, no illusions that everything in my surroundings should or can be adjusted to maximize my comfort moment by moment. Something that a lot of people will have to learn or change their minds about, for any change to happen.

 

[gnome]

Climate Change might sound less frightening but I think it's a more sensible term as it's harder for 'journalists' like (I think it was) Alison Pearson of the Torygraph saying 'well yes, June was the hottest on record but it's been relatively cool and rained virtually everyday for July, so much for global warming'. IIRC she actually said "Climate Change" so virtually every response was pointing out that unprecedented heat & rainfall is by definition 'change'.

I usually think of climate change as a broader phenomenon including many effects, one of which is a global warming trend but including plenty of others such as more extreme and frequent weather events.

 

[newyorkguy]

Regarding President Biden's Climate Change comments. Remember this? Just four years ago-

[IMGW=400]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1474&pictureid=13641[/IMGW]

This was when we had a REAL MAN as our president!

MAGA!!!​

 

[lobosrul5]

What is the individual to do, though, other than moderate their own consumption? How does that actual stop actually happen?

I did the political activism for a few years, lobbying for the then-proposed EPA clean electricity plan to be implemented in my home state. Carrying signs, standing on corners with petitions, manning a booth at fairs, writing letters, under the direction of a well-established environmental organization with a good track record. Went to the state capital to meet with sympathetic state legislators. Who told me flat out, "It's a Republican majority so it won't pass." Which it didn't.

Sabotaging refineries or other such direct action might have a more noticeable effect, but it would also cost lives (the more successful, the more lives, because one of the things ITTL has right is that most people cannot imagine the changes in life that would be necessary if fossil fuels were eliminated or significantly curtailed, but I can, and I know they would be fatal for many). I'm not willing to murder for the planet, because you know what, the planet will take care of itself and the murdering will happen without me striking any blow at anyone.

I do in fact take cold showers. I have for years, all cold except when ill. It saves money I can use to help improve my resiliency in other ways, it feels good, it's better for my easily-irritated skin, the bathroom doesn't steam up, I save time and water not having to adjust the water temperature just right and not standing there luxuriating, I don't have to worry about whether the hot water will run out or if it'll run out on someone else if I use it, it doesn't matter if someone else turns on a tap while I'm in there, and being physiologically accustomed to cold water gives me a lot more opportunities to go swimming here in New England. No medal. No illusions that I'm "saving the planet" (see above). But also, no illusions that everything in my surroundings should or can be adjusted to maximize my comfort moment by moment. Something that a lot of people will have to learn or change their minds about, for any change to happen.

... I take 2 hot showers almost every day. And I think my natural gas bill hit like $18 last month, and I have a $7 connection fee. Not exactly a princely expense.

 

[Doubt]

98%+ of the free CO2 in the biosphere is in solution in the oceans.

As the oceans warm they out-gas CO2.

Atmospheric CO2 follows global warming, a truth established decades ago.

The tale we're being told, the opposite, IS A LIE.

Maybe you should try looking up science instead of politics.

https://supersystems.com/analyzers/co-co2-ch4/portable-ndir-pga/

Here is a practical example for you. The attached link will lead you to a company that makes gas analyzers. I used and early version of this instrument to measure concentrations of carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, and methane. This new version also measures hydrogen.

I did this in the heat treat industry that has been heavily dependent on greenhouse gases to make steel stronger. One of the reasons I am not in that business anymore is because the technology is getting away from the heavy uses of hydrocarbons. There are other ways to do all of it. I am not needed there as much anymore and moved on into other equipment that is used to make the air a bit cleaner but still uses gas burners.

The means of analysis here is based on the ability of the gases to adsorb infrared light. It works by using a single source of infrared reflected into a set of chambers where the light is filtered and then measured for intensity. The less light making it through a given filter and gas combination, the more of that gas is present in the sample. It is 100% reliable. And this is the exact same principle that is driving global warming.

The kicker here is that different gases adsorb different frequency ranges of light. So each gas you add to the atmosphere makes things worse by adsorbing a different part of the infrared range of the spectrum.

If you want to argue that increasing green house gases in the atmosphere isn't warming the earth, then what is the effect of those gases given that I just proved to you that green house gases absorb infra red light?