Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks...

[Dave Rogers]

You can all relax. Pig head Dave is back on the case.

Having ****** things up already by holding a referendum, presumably he now plans to **** them up even worse by preventing one.

Dave

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

You could certainly spin it as choosing from the available options now that they are concrete and not the nebulous have cake after eating cake of the original leave campaign.

That could likely be spun as a flawed original information presented and these are now the three hard options to choose from.

Alternatively they could be honest and say 'this is the only way we can resolve the roadblock in Parliament and we really hope you vote to stay this time because that would make it a lot easier to implement'

Of course the nightmare scenario would be getting the same result.

 

[GnaGnaMan]

It’s far better to correct misleading information as you did at the beginning of your post.

Feel free to do that.

 

[Darat]

You think the Wehrmacht were innocuous?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_the_Wehrmacht

Sure, there was conscription and there were many deserters. However, you don't get to be an officer in the Wehrmacht without being a National Socialist zealot.

Fair enough, Juncker's father want to play down any role he might have had with the 'just obeying orders' line (born 1924, he would have been quite young).

Whilst of course we should forgive, we should not forget.

Which as usual with you doesn't support your earlier claim.

 

[catsmate]

Or you could just admit you were wrong.

That would be a first.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Alternatively they could be honest and say 'this is the only way we can resolve the roadblock in Parliament and we really hope you vote to stay this time because that would make it a lot easier to implement'

Of course the nightmare scenario would be getting the same result.

Well sure, but at least the voting will be between clear definite programs. Now sure you might get protest votes to crash out of the EU with no deal but no deal and Mays deal seem very much less popular than ending brexit. When it is voting between those three and only those three with say ranked choice voting it should work reasonably well.

 

[Andy_Ross]

MPs will vote on the UK's Brexit deal in the week beginning 14 January, Theresa May has told Parliament.

The vote was due to be held last week but was put on hold after Mrs May admitted she was set to lose.

Announcing a new date, she said the EU had made it clear the Irish backstop was "not a plot to trap the UK", and urged MPs to see Brexit through.

But Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn said he would table a motion of no confidence in the PM for delaying the vote.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46586673

 

[Garrison]

May just is not a fan of democracy, she did her level best to prevent any parliamentary scrutiny of her Brexit negotiations, which suggests she knew full well there was no deal she could negotiate that would make it through a real vote rather than the rubber stamp exercise she wanted.

 

[Dr. Keith]

May just is not a fan of democracy, she did her level best to prevent any parliamentary scrutiny of her Brexit negotiations, which suggests she knew full well there was no deal she could negotiate that would make it through a real vote rather than the rubber stamp exercise she wanted.

Is there any deal that would be acceptable to the Brexiters and the EU?

How can the EU allow the UK to have a better deal outside the EU than it did as a member of the EU? Giving the UK a better deal would be the end of the EU and since the EU without the UK is still functional, I see no reason for the rest of the EU to dissolve just because the UK left.

And how can the Brexiters accept a deal that is worse than being a member of the EU?

There just doesn't seem to be any logical room for a deal. What do the Brexiters expect in a good deal? All the benefits of the EU with none of the responsibilities of being a member? Or some sort of cafeteria membership, where you pay for the things you want, but not the things you don't, while also having full input but no responsibilities?

This whole thing is confusing to me. Very confusing.

 

[Garrison]

Is there any deal that would be acceptable to the Brexiters and the EU?

How can the EU allow the UK to have a better deal outside the EU than it did as a member of the EU? Giving the UK a better deal would be the end of the EU and since the EU without the UK is still functional, I see no reason for the rest of the EU to dissolve just because the UK left.

And how can the Brexiters accept a deal that is worse than being a member of the EU?

There just doesn't seem to be any logical room for a deal. What do the Brexiters expect in a good deal? All the benefits of the EU with none of the responsibilities of being a member? Or some sort of cafeteria membership, where you pay for the things you want, but not the things you don't, while also having full input but no responsibilities?

This whole thing is confusing to me. Very confusing.

The original plan seems to have been to get whatever crappy deal the EU was prepared to offer and give Parliament a choice of bad deal or crash out with a no deal hard Brexit. The courts and losing her majority in that stupid snap election torpedoed that plan and now May is stuck, there is no good Brexit plan and certainly not one Parliament will approve.

 

[Dr. Keith]

The original plan seems to have been to get whatever crappy deal the EU was prepared to offer and give Parliament a choice of bad deal or crash out with a no deal hard Brexit. The courts and losing her majority in that stupid snap election torpedoed that plan and now May is stuck, there is no good Brexit plan and certainly not one Parliament will approve.

That word makes it sound like there once was a good plan to be had. I don't think there ever was.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Is there any deal that would be acceptable to the Brexiters and the EU? .

Probably no deal at is would be the closest to it. Although that would still have the Ireland question unresolved. I'm not sure what portion of the Brexiteers would have an issue with that

 

[Jack by the hedge]

That word makes it sound like there once was a good plan to be had. I don't think there ever was.

A proportion of Leave voters believed we'd be better off out of the EU. Others thought we'd be worse off but reckoned it was worth it. The former group have gradually moved to the latter position. What portion have moved further, to thinking actually it's not worth it at all, I cannot tell. I don't think it's a large number.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

I saw a poll today that was 53% remain, 36% leave

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

So Corbyn has oddly tabled a motion of no confidence in TM which has no real legal standing and may not even be heard in the Commons. VONC has to be in government for it to count.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I saw a poll today that was 53% remain, 36% leave

I saw those figures quoted as being for or against a second referendum, although in fairness I think the two questions would get almost identical results, at least if leave is "Hard Brexit"

 

[Filippo Lippi]

Yes, you're right.

 

[Vixen]

You haven’t supported your claim he was in the SS.

Also, you are wrong about having to be a National Socialist zealot to be an officer. Was he a member of the Nazi Party? Many officers were not.

Most importantly, you haven’t substantiated your implied claim that this has F-all to do with his son and the EU overall...

The Wehrmacht is simply an umbrella term to describe the overall armed forces.

Fact is:

According to the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum in Jerusalem, Luxembourg had 3,500 Jews before Germany invaded, of whom 1,945 were murdered in death camps and in the country itself. Only a few Jews returned after the war.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/luxemb...fb_comment_id=789601597762064_789674804421410


Lucky Juncker: his dad got to live to >90 whilst his fellow Jews did not.

OK, so we are all an accident of history. However, the idea that EU leaders today are somehow automatically benign is naive. Juncker has publicly said he resents the British press for mentioning his father's role in WWII.

Let's be realistic, EU members jockey for position just like they have always done.

Michel H assuming it's all now hunky-dory tree-hugging compliance is blinkered.

 

[Vixen]

Why the hell are you producing a quote about the nazification of the Wehrmacht, dealing in large part with the increase in Nazified officers as the war drew on, which is entirely based othe fact that Germany was under Nazi rule from 1933 onwards, and the new officers were coming through from the Hitler Youth?

What in merry hell does that have to do with someone who did not grow up in Germany, but in Luxembourg?

Why can you not just admit you got it wrong, and were misled, instead of this hole-digging you seem to enjoy doing?

Luxembourg was German occupied, that's how Juncker's father got to join the German army.

 

[Vixen]

No, we think they weren't the SS, which means that the claim that Joseph Juncker was in the SS is false.



I'm absolutely certain that's not true. Many high-ranking Wermacht officers disagreed with Hitler but felt bound by the terms of their oaths to obey him. But in any case, where's the evidence that Joseph Juncker was an officer in the Wermacht? And if he wasn't, is it possible even to see the original position of the goalposts from where they've now moved to?

Dave

It's what I read somewhere. Yes, the noble classes who made up the Wehrmacht officers (=Junker class) were despised by Hitler, and they despised him in turn (for example: they were largely behind the plots to assassinate him).

Juncker's father was working-class, which implies he worked his way up and committed himself to its ideals.

Truth is, world war history is still relatively recent so what you did in the war is a relevant question in determining a politician's motivation and psyche.