Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks...

[Vixen]

You really have no idea of the complexity of modern business have you?

Tell me your qualifications.

 

[Vixen]

You hear people refer to the Wehrmacht when they mean Wehrmacht Heer (or army). However the Waffen SS were a parallel organization to the Wehrmacht though sometimes Waffen SS units were placed under the operational control of the army.

What German is going to admit to having been SS. All the older Germans I know are just like Juncker's dad: claim they were opposed to the Nazis.

Oh, OK.

 

[Vixen]

And she's gone back on quite a few other things that seemed to be red lines.

I understand her point that demanding we have a new referendum shows at best a lack of respect for the will of the British people, and looks like saying "I'm going to keep on asking till I get the answer I want." But there's a simple enough solution to that: we need a referendum where the question is "Should there be another referendum on whether, and under what terms, the UK should leave the EU?" That way, if the answer is "Yes," then a new referendum is not disrespecting, but respecting, the will of the people; and if the answer is "No," then we'll have spent a shedload of time and money to be precisely no better or worse off than before we spent it - which is, in the light of all the time and money that's been spent on Brexit so far to leave us a great deal worse off than we were before, practically tantamount to a win.

Dave

I don't see what the problem is. After all many MP's and local councillors are regularly having to be re-elected or having to stand down.

 

[Vixen]

Alternatively they could be honest and say 'this is the only way we can resolve the roadblock in Parliament and we really hope you vote to stay this time because that would make it a lot easier to implement'

Of course the nightmare scenario would be getting the same result.

This time, the government needs to give a referendum vote to all the Brits who live abroad.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Truth is, world war history is still relatively recent so what you did in the war is a relevant question in determining a politician's motivation and psyche.

Highlight mine.

So, what do you think Jean-Claude Juncker (b.1954) did in the war then?

 

[Vixen]

Highlight mine.

So, what do you think Jean-Claude Juncker (b.1954) did in the war then?

Wrong. He was born 1950.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Wrong. He was born 1950.

Jean-Claude Juncker (Luxembourgish: [ʒɑ̃ːkloːt ˈjuŋkɐ]; born 9 December 1954) is a Luxembourgish politician serving as President of the European Commission since 2014. From 1995 to 2013 he served as the 23rd Prime Minister of Luxembourg; from 1989 to 2009 he was also Minister for Finances.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Juncker

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...ome..69i57j0.11820j1j4&sourceid=silk&ie=UTF-8


Oh, and obvious evasion is obvious.....

 

[fagin]

Jesus. Juncker's dad was a forced conscript in the war. Just shows you the extent of the propaganda doing the rounds.

Oh please. You don't get to be an officer unless you've shown loyalty and commitment to your cause. My brothers were British army officers. They had to pass out at Sandhurst first, after studying for exams and achieving the entry requirements of a relevant university degree (electronics or whatever it was). All armed forces personnel have to swear an allegiance to the crown.

I am all for everybody in Europe uniting together in peace and love. However, we should never forget the fallen who gave their lives in WWI and WWII (and it wasn't Juncker's dad who is the grand old age of 90 or more).

You said Juncker was the son of an SS officer. His father was never in the SS, he was forcibly conscripted into the Wehrmacht and sent to the Eastern front, so you're talking nonsense as usual.

You think the Wehrmacht were innocuous?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_the_Wehrmacht

Sure, there was conscription and there were many deserters. However, you don't get to be an officer in the Wehrmacht without being a National Socialist zealot.

Fair enough, Juncker's father want to play down any role he might have had with the 'just obeying orders' line (born 1924, he would have been quite young).

Whilst of course we should forgive, we should not forget.

You've climbed down from "completely fabricated smear job" to a simple poisoning the well fallacy.

Now, is there some specific atrocity or war crime you would like to suggest Mr. Juncker committed, ordered, or knowingly allowed to occur?

Don't just hide behind supposition. It is absolutely within reason to merely be a cog in the eastern front late in the war with a few million Russians rampaging through your country and by merely having the (mis)fortune of not getting killed for a while and viola, you're now in charge of this mess. The party zealots largely fell into one of two outcomes: hanging out in a bunker together or rapidly opening a dialogue with the U.S/British to save their own skin.

ETA: then, even if we establish some nefarious triva about his dad, what's that got to do with anything?

I think the Wehrmacht and the SS were two completely different organisations. You said Juncker was the son of an SS officer, but his father was never in the SS at all. He was in the Wehrmacht, and he wasn't even in that voluntarily.

I suppose its expecting too much from you to know the difference between the SS and the Wehrmacht when you don't even know the difference between Dublin and Dusseldorf.

You haven’t supported your claim he was in the SS.

Also, you are wrong about having to be a National Socialist zealot to be an officer. Was he a member of the Nazi Party? Many officers were not.

Most importantly, you haven’t substantiated your implied claim that this has F-all to do with his son and the EU overall...

Why the hell are you producing a quote about the nazification of the Wehrmacht, dealing in large part with the increase in Nazified officers as the war drew on, which is entirely based othe fact that Germany was under Nazi rule from 1933 onwards, and the new officers were coming through from the Hitler Youth?

What in merry hell does that have to do with someone who did not grow up in Germany, but in Luxembourg?

Why can you not just admit you got it wrong, and were misled, instead of this hole-digging you seem to enjoy doing?

No, we think they weren't the SS, which means that the claim that Joseph Juncker was in the SS is false.



I'm absolutely certain that's not true. Many high-ranking Wermacht officers disagreed with Hitler but felt bound by the terms of their oaths to obey him. But in any case, where's the evidence that Joseph Juncker was an officer in the Wermacht? And if he wasn't, is it possible even to see the original position of the goalposts from where they've now moved to?

Dave

You're confusing Waffen SS and Wehrmacht again.



BTW, I am still waiting for an undisputable evidence that Juncker's father was an officer in the Wehrmacht.

The Wehrmacht is simply an umbrella term to describe the overall armed forces.

Fact is:

http://www.timesofisrael.com/luxemb...fb_comment_id=789601597762064_789674804421410


Lucky Juncker: his dad got to live to >90 whilst his fellow Jews did not.

OK, so we are all an accident of history. However, the idea that EU leaders today are somehow automatically benign is naive. Juncker has publicly said he resents the British press for mentioning his father's role in WWII.

Let's be realistic, EU members jockey for position just like they have always done.

Michel H assuming it's all now hunky-dory tree-hugging compliance is blinkered.

Juncker went to a "Roman Catholic "école apostolique" (secondary school) at Clairefontaine on the edge of Arlon in Belgium" (Wiki). What makes you think his dad was jewish?

Luxembourg was German occupied, that's how Juncker's father got to join the German army.

It's what I read somewhere. Yes, the noble classes who made up the Wehrmacht officers (=Junker class) were despised by Hitler, and they despised him in turn (for example: they were largely behind the plots to assassinate him).

Juncker's father was working-class, which implies he worked his way up and committed himself to its ideals.

Truth is, world war history is still relatively recent so what you did in the war is a relevant question in determining a politician's motivation and psyche.

What German is going to admit to having been SS. All the older Germans I know are just like Juncker's dad: claim they were opposed to the Nazis.

Oh, OK.

Keep digging, down down, deeper and down.

 

[Information Analyst]

What German is going to admit to having been SS. All the older Germans I know are just like Juncker's dad: claim they were opposed to the Nazis.

After more effort than I should have put into it, I can find no evidence that Joseph Juncker was in the SS, nor any evidence that he was an officer in the Heer (army), either. All the references merely state he was forced to serve in the Wehrmacht.

Germany considered Luxembourg to be a Germanic state, and annexed it as such. They regarded Luxembourgers as German, and hence conscripted men of military age - over 10,000 of them - as if they were regular Germans. This was quite different to how they raised volunteer troops in other countries that were not considered Germanic.

I think you should put the stick down and back away from the horse's corpse.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Or you could just admit you were wrong.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12506391&postcount=45

 

[P.J. Denyer]

After more effort than I should have put into it, I can find no evidence that Joseph Juncker was in the SS, nor any evidence that he was an officer in the Heer (army), either. All the references merely state he was forced to serve in the Wehrmacht.

Germany considered Luxembourg to be a Germanic state, and annexed it as such. They regarded Luxembourgers as German, and hence conscripted men of military age - over 10,000 of them - as if they were regular Germans. This was quite different to how they raised volunteer troops in other countries that were not considered Germanic.

I think you should put the stick down and back away from the horse's corpse.

Seventy One pages of the Elizabeth Warren thread lead me to the conclusion that there will be very well tenderised horse steaks for the barbie.

 

[Vixen]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Claude_Juncker

https://www.google.com/search?q=how...ome..69i57j0.11820j1j4&sourceid=silk&ie=UTF-8


Oh, and obvious evasion is obvious.....

OK, fair enough.

 

[Vixen]

Juncker went to a "Roman Catholic "école apostolique" (secondary school) at Clairefontaine on the edge of Arlon in Belgium" (Wiki). What makes you think his dad was jewish?



Keep digging, down down, deeper and down.

Er...his dad was not Jewish he was a Luxembourger, just like his fellow Jews were, who were also Luxembourgers, but were sent off to the death camps.


Had Juncker's dad been Jewish, I doubt Juncker would have been born in Luxembourg, if at all.


Get a grip. I mentioned Juncker's background because some people have a naive view that everybody in Europe is now magically lovey-dovey.

 

[Vixen]

After more effort than I should have put into it, I can find no evidence that Joseph Juncker was in the SS, nor any evidence that he was an officer in the Heer (army), either. All the references merely state he was forced to serve in the Wehrmacht.

Germany considered Luxembourg to be a Germanic state, and annexed it as such. They regarded Luxembourgers as German, and hence conscripted men of military age - over 10,000 of them - as if they were regular Germans. This was quite different to how they raised volunteer troops in other countries that were not considered Germanic.

I think you should put the stick down and back away from the horse's corpse.

Wrong. Not all Luxembourgers were Germanic. Over three thousand were Jews. These Luxembourgers were mercilessly persecuted.

Luxembourg’s wartime bosses willingly cooperated with German Nazis in the persecution of Jews during the Holocaust, a government-commissioned study determined.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/luxemb...fb_comment_id=789601597762064_789674804421410

 

[Strawberry]

Er...his dad was not Jewish he was a Luxembourger, just like his fellow Jews were, who were also Luxemburgers, but were sent off to the death camps.


Had Juncker's dad been Jewish, I doubt he would have been born in Luxembourg, if at all.


Get a grip. I mentioned Juncker's background because some people have a naive view that everybody in Europe is now magically lovey-dovey.

Jean Claude Juncker's dad being forced to serve in the Wehrmacht while his country was under German occupation does nothing to dispel the notion that "everybody in Europe is now magically lovey-dovey".

Not that anybody said anything of the sort anyway.

 

[Vixen]

Jean Claude Juncker's dad being forced to serve in the Wehrmacht while his country was under German occupation does nothing to dispel the notion that "everybody in Europe is now magically lovey-dovey".

Not that anybody said anything of the sort anyway.

'Forced to'. He would say that wouldn't he?

Norwegians refused.

 

[Strawberry]

'Forced to'. He would say that wouldn't he?

Norwegians refused.

Its in the historical record that he was a conscript and not a volunteer. You're just wrong about everything here, which is hardly an unusual experience for you.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Wrong. He was born 1950.

Erm, the war finished in 1945.

 

[fagin]

Er...his dad was not Jewish he was a Luxembourger, just like his fellow Jews were, who were also Luxembourgers, but were sent off to the death camps.


Had Juncker's dad been Jewish, I doubt Juncker would have been born in Luxembourg, if at all.


Get a grip. I mentioned Juncker's background because some people have a naive view that everybody in Europe is now magically lovey-dovey.

Er he wasn't Jewish just like his fellow Jews?????

 

[Vixen]

Erm, the war finished in 1945.

If people are going to have a go at Rees-Mogg for being 'an upper class twit', then there is clearly an intuitive feeling amongst people that your background (for example, what your parents did) is an important part of understanding what makes a politician tick.

You have noticed Juncker thinks it's OK to patronise females and touch them.

In this respect, he is not much different from Trump.

I am sure he is a very nice chap otherwise.

I am glad Thersa May confronted him, as he has been making fun of her.