Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks...

[fagin]

Or you could just admit you were wrong.

 

[Strawberry]

Oh please. You don't get to be an officer unless you've shown loyalty and commitment to your cause. My brothers were British army officers. They had to pass out at Sandhurst first, after studying for exams and achieving the entry requirements of a relevant university degree (electronics or whatever it was). All armed forces personnel have to swear an allegiance to the crown.

I am all for everybody in Europe uniting together in peace and love. However, we should never forget the fallen who gave their lives in WWI and WWII (and it wasn't Juncker's dad who is the grand old age of 90 or more).

You said Juncker was the son of an SS officer. His father was never in the SS, he was forcibly conscripted into the Wehrmacht and sent to the Eastern front, so you're talking nonsense as usual.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Or you could just admit you were wrong.

A universally welcomed solution to Brexit is more likely.

 

[fagin]

One can live in hope.

 

[Filippo Lippi]

VTOL pigs are more likely

 

[GnaGnaMan]

To me, an "economic terror organization" (in this context) is a large economic power which threatens economic catastrophe if their trading partners "do not pay enough". This is actually racketeering and extorsion, exactly what the European Union is (perhaps) doing, in my opinion (it is doing other, more useful, things too, however).

My ideas are just my own, I am trying to use the best sources of factual information that I can find (I sometimes learn by reading posts on this forum too). I am not an economist, I have an engineering degree, and a Ph.D. degree in Physics from an American university.

You realize that almost all countries charge tariffs? And that the UK will charge its own tariffs once it has left? Are you also in the taxation is slavery camp?

Also, if, after leaving the Union, Britain wants to participate on some important European research project, for example on synthetic fuels, batteries, or advanced, fourth generation nuclear reactors, I hope they will be welcome to join, and I would find it normal that they contribute financially, like other countries. But I don't think they should be required to pay enormous amounts of money, just for free trade. In my opinion, using an "ethical approach", this should be granted free of charge (and with a smile). When you do that, you may avoid a major catastrophe, which is important.

UK based researchers get more grant money from the EU than the UK government pays in. I can see why the UK would like to continue participating in such programs. But, I hope, you can see that the system cannot work when each country only participates in programs where it receives back more money than it pays in.

The EU funds a number of things for various reasons. Rich countries, like the UK, are net payers and poorer countries are net recipients.
Are you aware of this fact? I am struggling to see how how rich countries giving poorer countries a leg up is unethical.

 

[Ian Osborne]

According to Anthony "Ant" Middleton Adventurer and Channel 4 television presenter.

"A ‘no deal’ for our country would actually be a blessing in disguise. It would force us into hardship and suffering which would unite & bring us together, bringing back British values of loyalty and a sense of community! Extreme change is needed!"

Was he serious? I’d assume that tweet was taking the piss.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Or you could just admit you were wrong.

Even if she had been right, attacking him for what his father did in the war is irrelevant barrel scraping.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Was he serious? I’d assume that tweet was taking the piss.

Nope sadly he's doubled down on it.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You said Juncker was the son of an SS officer. His father was never in the SS, he was forcibly conscripted into the Wehrmacht and sent to the Eastern front, so you're talking nonsense as usual.

But it fits the Anti EU narrative so it must be true.

 

[Michel H]

The EU funds a number of things for various reasons. Rich countries, like the UK, are net payers and poorer countries are net recipients.
Are you aware of this fact? I am struggling to see how how rich countries giving poorer countries a leg up is unethical.

I see nothing wrong in helping Eastern Europe in its economic development. However, I am not convinced the UK should be required to pay vast sums of money for the economic development of Eastern Europe when it would perhaps prefer to use this money for other priorities: for example, a better funding for the NHS, energy and climate change, development and humanitarian assistance to the most extremely poor countries of Africa ... The UK seems to have a businesslike approach to the EU: it wants the EU to bring them free and frictionless trade, and is not so much interested in freedom of movement and in handing out money to Romania and Bulgaria. Should they be blamed for that? Should they get kicked out of the European Economic Area because of that? I don't think so, so perhaps Europe should try to be a little more flexible with the British.

 

[Vixen]

You said Juncker was the son of an SS officer. His father was never in the SS, he was forcibly conscripted into the Wehrmacht and sent to the Eastern front, so you're talking nonsense as usual.

You think the Wehrmacht were innocuous?

The British historian Richard J. Evans wrote that junior officers in the Army were inclined to be especially zealous National Socialists with a third of them having joined the Nazi Party by 1941.[55] Reinforcing the work of the junior leaders were the National Socialist Leadership Guidance Officers, which were created with the purpose of indoctrinating the troops for the "war of extermination" against Soviet Russia.[55] Among higher-ranking officers, 29.2% were NSDAP members by 1941.[56] The Wehrmacht obeyed Hitler's criminal orders for Barbarossa not because of obedience to orders, but because they, like Hitler, believed that the Soviet Union was run by Jews, and that Germany must completely destroy "Judeo-Bolshevism".[57] German historian Jürgen Förster wrote that most Wehrmacht officers genuinely believed that most Red Army commissars were Jews who in turn were what kept the Red Army going, and that the best way to bring about victory against the Soviet Union was to exterminate the commissars via enforcing the Commissar Order so as to deprive the Russian soldiers of their Jewish leaders.[58]

From 1943 onwards, the influx of officers and conscripts who had been mainly educated under the Nazis, began to further increase the National Socialism in the army.[59] Political influence in the military command began to increase later in the war when Hitler's flawed strategic decisions began showing up as serious defeats for the German Army and tensions mounted between the military and the government. When Hitler appointed unqualified personnel such as Hermann Göring to lead his Air Force, failure ensued. A sign of the close ties between Hitler and his armed forces was his choice of the ardent Nazi Grand Admiral Karl Dönitz to be the next Führer, a man whose "...dedication to National Socialist ideas and his close identification with Hitler's strategy in the last stages of the war made him a logical, not surprising, choice by Hitler as his successor".[60]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_the_Wehrmacht

Sure, there was conscription and there were many deserters. However, you don't get to be an officer in the Wehrmacht without being a National Socialist zealot.

Fair enough, Juncker's father want to play down any role he might have had with the 'just obeying orders' line (born 1924, he would have been quite young).

Whilst of course we should forgive, we should not forget.

 

[Vixen]

Even if she had been right, attacking him for what his father did in the war is irrelevant barrel scraping.

No, I was responding to Michel H's idealistic claim that we should all be altruistic and smile at each other. History tells us it doesn't work that way.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

You think the Wehrmacht were innocuous?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_the_Wehrmacht

Sure, there was conscription and there were many deserters. However, you don't get to be an officer in the Wehrmacht without being a National Socialist zealot.

Fair enough, Juncker's father want to play down any role he might have had with the 'just obeying orders' line (born 1924, he would have been quite young).

Whilst of course we should forgive, we should not forget.

You've climbed down from "completely fabricated smear job" to a simple poisoning the well fallacy.

Now, is there some specific atrocity or war crime you would like to suggest Mr. Juncker committed, ordered, or knowingly allowed to occur?

Don't just hide behind supposition. It is absolutely within reason to merely be a cog in the eastern front late in the war with a few million Russians rampaging through your country and by merely having the (mis)fortune of not getting killed for a while and viola, you're now in charge of this mess. The party zealots largely fell into one of two outcomes: hanging out in a bunker together or rapidly opening a dialogue with the U.S/British to save their own skin.

ETA: then, even if we establish some nefarious triva about his dad, what's that got to do with anything?

 

[Strawberry]

You think the Wehrmacht were innocuous?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_the_Wehrmacht

Sure, there was conscription and there were many deserters. However, you don't get to be an officer in the Wehrmacht without being a National Socialist zealot.

Fair enough, Juncker's father want to play down any role he might have had with the 'just obeying orders' line (born 1924, he would have been quite young).

Whilst of course we should forgive, we should not forget.

I think the Wehrmacht and the SS were two completely different organisations. You said Juncker was the son of an SS officer, but his father was never in the SS at all. He was in the Wehrmacht, and he wasn't even in that voluntarily.

I suppose its expecting too much from you to know the difference between the SS and the Wehrmacht when you don't even know the difference between Dublin and Dusseldorf.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

I offer a link to this post without comment, just a warning that if you click on it with a mouth full of coffee, coke, or any other beverage of your choice I take no responsibility for damage to your keyboard. Also, turn off any irony or BS detectors that may be within range, shrapnel is no joke.

You Have Been Warned!

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12506391&postcount=45

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I see nothing wrong in helping Eastern Europe in its economic development. However, I am not convinced the UK should be required to pay vast sums of money for the economic development of Eastern Europe when it would perhaps prefer to use this money for other priorities: for example, a better funding for the NHS, energy and climate change, development and humanitarian assistance to the most extremely poor countries of Africa ... The UK seems to have a businesslike approach to the EU: it wants the EU to bring them free and frictionless trade, and is not so much interested in freedom of movement and in handing out money to Romania and Bulgaria. Should they be blamed for that? Should they get kicked out of the European Economic Area because of that? I don't think so, so perhaps Europe should try to be a little more flexible with the British.

The thing is, you are either part of the EU with all that comes with it, or not part, in which case you also get none of the benefits.
Now, the EU will allow participation in it's programs, but at a higher cost than member states, as otherwise there would be no actual benefit to being a member state.
This was known. The EU has never claimed otherwise. Just because the brexit camp lied about those consequences and claimed it would not happen does not mean it's the EU's job to fulfill promises made by idiots, nor to appease the people who believed the lies and now are finding out that the promised golden future turns out to be non-existent.

 

[angrysoba]

You think the Wehrmacht were innocuous?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_the_Wehrmacht

Sure, there was conscription and there were many deserters. However, you don't get to be an officer in the Wehrmacht without being a National Socialist zealot.

Fair enough, Juncker's father want to play down any role he might have had with the 'just obeying orders' line (born 1924, he would have been quite young).

Whilst of course we should forgive, we should not forget.

You haven’t supported your claim he was in the SS.

Also, you are wrong about having to be a National Socialist zealot to be an officer. Was he a member of the Nazi Party? Many officers were not.

Most importantly, you haven’t substantiated your implied claim that this has F-all to do with his son and the EU overall...

 

[GnaGnaMan]

I see nothing wrong in helping Eastern Europe in its economic development. However, I am not convinced the UK should be required to pay vast sums of money for the economic development of Eastern Europe when it would perhaps prefer to use this money for other priorities: for example, a better funding for the NHS, energy and climate change, development and humanitarian assistance to the most extremely poor countries of Africa ... The UK seems to have a businesslike approach to the EU: it wants the EU to bring them free and frictionless trade, and is not so much interested in freedom of movement and in handing out money to Romania and Bulgaria. Should they be blamed for that? Should they get kicked out of the European Economic Area because of that? I don't think so, so perhaps Europe should try to be a little more flexible with the British.

The UK is leaving the EEA on its own volition. It is not getting kicked out. I also notice that you are dodging a lot of questions. No offense meant but you don't seem to have the necessary background knowledge to participate in this discussion.

 

[Tolls]

You think the Wehrmacht were innocuous?

Why the hell are you producing a quote about the nazification of the Wehrmacht, dealing in large part with the increase in Nazified officers as the war drew on, which is entirely based othe fact that Germany was under Nazi rule from 1933 onwards, and the new officers were coming through from the Hitler Youth?

What in merry hell does that have to do with someone who did not grow up in Germany, but in Luxembourg?

Why can you not just admit you got it wrong, and were misled, instead of this hole-digging you seem to enjoy doing?