Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks...

[jeremyp]

Absolute rubbish.

It's not the fault of Johnson, Rees-Mogg, David Davis and so on that May has proven utterly incapable of negotiating a deal which will mean gravity will no longer apply to the UK.

Actually, it’s entirely their fault. David Davis was even the Brexit secretary and Johnson the foreign secretary until they both decided it was the optimal moment to stab their leader in the back. David Davis is the main reason we spent the first year doing **** all and Boris Johnson is the lump of blubber that threatened the Italians with us not drinking their fizzy wine anymore. They are both contemptible traitors.

Rees Mogg is an arse who won’t accept anything that doesn’t let him apply Victorian labour laws to his employees.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

No, there was far less than half the country voting for Brexit.

Fair enough; about a quarter of the country will blame another quarter for their stupid choice. The other half won't care enough to bother.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... I don't know whether this was possible, but it should have been framed as a vote on whether the government should start negotiating possible exit strategies with the EU...

That is pretty much exactly how the official Vote Leave campaign framed it in their own literature:

"Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop - we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we begin any legal process to leave"

You'll see there's another gem on the same page about free trade:

" there is a free trade zone from Iceland to Turkey and the Russian border and we will be part of it"

 

[Amazer]

I agree, and I feel this has been handled terribly from the very beginning. The referendum should never have happened in that way (hindsight is 20/20 and all that). I don't know whether this was possible, but it should have been framed as a vote on whether the government should start negotiating possible exit strategies with the EU. A second referendum could then decide whether Britain remains in the EU or takes the resulting deal.

Why would the EU start negotiating possible exit strategies untill and unless a member state actually decides to leave? If anything, that is a debate that the UK should have had with itself (about exit strategy and future relationship) before triggering the first referendum.

This has the benefit of putting all relevant information on the table and is also a proper final decision. If Britain still jumps after seeing that there are rocks below ... well, Darwin Awards etc.

All the relevant information was out there.... the UK just has lousy politicians and an even worse media, so that boring stuff just didn't get reported, or listened to.

Instead, the country is set to be divided for a few generations no matter what happens. Personally I'm hoping it will open up a proper discussion about what the EU actually does and that voters will be better informed in the future. Not holding my breath though.

It sucks for the UK for sure (to be divided for a few generation)... but I see no reason why the EU should be responsible for healing those self-inflicted divisions.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Why would the EU start negotiating possible exit strategies untill and unless a member state actually decides to leave?

Indeed. As soon as Leave achieved their surprise win, it turned out they had no plan whatsoever and everything they had promised had been plucked straight from their butt. The other EU nations had no process to set up negotiations with a member who was just thinking about leaving.

All the relevant information was out there.... the UK just has lousy politicians and an even worse media, so that boring stuff just didn't get reported, or listened to.

I'm not entirely sure that all the relevant info was out there - everyone seemed to be pretty much making it up as they went along because nobody could agree on what processes were involved, but I can certainly agree we have hopeless politicians and useless media.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Well the C4 Real Brexit Debate was a waste of time. Just a rehashing of the same soundbites. It really shows the dearth of sense talked about Brexit and the complete hash that has been made of it that 2 years on we are still no closer to having a clue about it.

 

[Pixel42]

Nm

 

[KDLarsen]

A quote from Grieve yesterday

There is a risk the party will split and cannot continue in its current form... I can see that this is of such a fundamental character this issue that it may be the end of the Conservative party in its current form, and that bothers me very much because one of the products of Brexit has been total paralysis on virtually every other area of policy.

The funny thing is, I thought Cameron's gamble with a referendum was all about preventing the tories from splitting into a pro-EU Conservative party and the Europhobic UKIP...

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

ECJ ruling confirms that Article 50 can be withdrawn unilaterally. This surely should become the fallback position now if the deal cannot get through Parliament.

 

[Mojo]

ECJ ruling confirms that Article 50 can be withdrawn unilaterally. This surely should become the fallback position now if the deal cannot get through Parliament.

In a sane country, yes.

 

[Amazer]

ECJ ruling confirms that Article 50 can be withdrawn unilaterally. This surely should become the fallback position now if the deal cannot get through Parliament.

Wouldn't that require parliament to rescind a previous Act, where the Brexit date was entered as a matter of law? Otherwise a hard Brexit is, and will continue to be the default fallback position.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Wouldn't that require parliament to rescind a previous Act, where the Brexit date was entered as a matter of law? Otherwise a hard Brexit is, and will continue to be the default fallback position.

Since TM won't do it, I think the better question is were it proposed by someone in the House would it be able to get enough votes to pass? If the option of a deal is off the table and only no deal remains then it may well do.

I believe that amendments tabled recently means that proceeding on the basis of no deal would also require HoC assent, although that's complicated by the deadline since it happens by default if we do nothing.

Any Government that allowed that to happen would be in dereliction of duty however and we might well then see a vote of no confidence and a GE. No deal loses the DUP I believe so she might well find that she loses a confidence vote.

 

[Wudang]

A pair of hedge funds owned by prominent Brexit supporters have made significant bets against companies exposed to the British consumer including big high street names.

Hilite added.



Source

 

[NWO Sentryman]

At this point it is shaping up to be no deal Brexit. The remain faction seem to think we can go back to 22 Jun 2016, but it's too late for that.

 

[Dave Rogers]

At this point it is shaping up to be no deal Brexit. The remain faction seem to think we can go back to 22 Jun 2016, but it's too late for that.

We can't go back, no, but cancelling Article 50 is eminently possible and delaying it pending a second referendum is hardly out of the question. No Brexit is increasingly looking like the least bad option even given the domestic political fallout (which will probably be pretty severe, though).

Dave

 

[NWO Sentryman]

We can't go back, no, but cancelling Article 50 is eminently possible and delaying it pending a second referendum is hardly out of the question. No Brexit is increasingly looking like the least bad option even given the domestic political fallout (which will probably be pretty severe, though).

Dave

Over 400 mps voted to invoke article 50, that's not the sort of thing that can be overturned so easily. Now were the result closer to a 55/45 split that would have been a different matter.

The horse has bolted on this one, and people are in the bargaining stage of depression.

 

[wobs]

If we want to stay in the EU via a People's Vote, we need to frame the issue differently:
https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...ules-remainers-if-they-want-win-people-s-vote

We don't want to repeat the same arguments as last time, and we certainly don't want to resort to name calling, or labelling people, which will only cause more division.

I just hope I can resist that temptation.

 

[Andy_Ross]

No deal Brexit and chaos at the border is what we will get.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

The remain faction seem to think we can go back to 22 Jun 2016, but it's too late for that.

The ECJ has now ruled that we can, unilaterally.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-46481643

We don't even need to click our heels 3 times and say "there's no Brexit, there's no Brexit, there's no Brexit".

 

[Worm]

Cabinet Ministers have apparently been put 'on standby' for a conference call with Theresa May.

(seen on Twitter from Sky News)