Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 6. Pick up sticks...

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Garrison said:
So they've finalized the draft agreement, which seems to agree nothing except to agree everything after the UK leaves the EU. there's a lot of bland aspirations and platitudes that May will doubtless spin as a victory but the truth is a hard Brexit is still very much on the table. The BBC gives some analysis of the fluff here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46303751
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You all know you're ****** right?
 
PM Theresa May is such a liar. 'No other deal is possible': rubbish!

'If this is not voted for, it will cause division and uncertainty'. So what? Surely it is better to have 'division and uncertainty' than to engage in a deal that might be wrong with massive repercussions for the future. It's like finding your dream house and just as you are about to buy (as happened to me once) there is a downpour of rain and it all comes flooding through the window frames. Of course you don't go ahead without further thought.

As for Gibraltar: this makes me hopping mad with fury. This is going to be negotiated separately. Really? You don't sign off on a deal without EVERYTHING negotiated. Imagine starting a new job and then approaching your employers to demand a 50% payrise and a company car shortly afterwards. Hello? You missed the boat. You should have negotiated BEFORE you signed the contract.

Then she makes the rather offensive assumption that the important thing for Leave voters is to 'stop EU nationals jumping the queue'. So we are all happy then that the Frogs and Krauts can't just turn up. No, it doesn't work like that. As for her opening the doors to highly skilled guys from Australia and 'Delhi' (to illustrate she isn't 'being racist'), actually, new immigrants will have to show a salary of £30K a year to be allowed in. It is clearly racist and possibly sexist as the awfully nice doctor from Delhi is less likely to be on that salary than someone from Canada, let alone their lovely spouse.
 
Vixen said:
PM Theresa May is such a liar. 'No other deal is possible': rubbish!
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No other deal is possible before Brexit date... maybe it is possible to change a few details here and there but other than that...

'If this is not voted for, it will cause division and uncertainty'. So what? Surely it is better to have 'division and uncertainty' than to engage in a deal that might be wrong with massive repercussions for the future. It's like finding your dream house and just as you are about to buy (as happened to me once) there is a downpour of rain and it all comes flooding through the window frames. Of course you don't go ahead without further thought.
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You are out of time.... you either take this deal or you crash out without one. Crashing out is going to be quite a bit worse than what you get with this deal.

As for Gibraltar: this makes me hopping mad with fury. This is going to be negotiated separately. Really? You don't sign off on a deal without EVERYTHING negotiated. Imagine starting a new job and then approaching your employers to demand a 50% payrise and a company car shortly afterwards. Hello? You missed the boat. You should have negotiated BEFORE you signed the contract.
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You should be happy that Gibraltar was not considered such an important issue as the Irish border. If it had been, then it would have been hammered down in the Exit Agreement, just like the Irish backstop has been. I'm quite sure that would have been even less to your liking. At least for now nothing has changed for the UK with regard to Gibraltar.

Then she makes the rather offensive assumption that the important thing for Leave voters is to 'stop EU nationals jumping the queue'. So we are all happy then that the Frogs and Krauts can't just turn up. No, it doesn't work like that. As for her opening the doors to highly skilled guys from Australia and 'Delhi' (to illustrate she isn't 'being racist'), actually, new immigrants will have to show a salary of £30K a year to be allowed in. It is clearly racist and possibly sexist as the awfully nice doctor from Delhi is less likely to be on that salary than someone from Canada, let alone their lovely spouse.
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The salary bit doesn't actually refer to salaries earned in their respective home countries. It does refer to the salary that is offered for the jobs they intend to take in the UK. In that respect a doctor from Dehli is more likely to meet the requirements than for example someone from Canada (especially if that person isn't particullary skilled).
 
Undesired Walrus said:
Can someone explain to me how we could have a frictionless border with Ireland even if we had a free trade agreement with the EU?

Surely free trade doesn't mean no borders?
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If it includes a customs and regulatory union then you eliminate the need for checks. If it doesn't then yes you probably can't.

Similarly for the movement of people.

Though I guess there are different levels of friction.
 
Amazer said:
No other deal is possible before Brexit date... maybe it is possible to change a few details here and there but other than that...


You are out of time.... you either take this deal or you crash out without one. Crashing out is going to be quite a bit worse than what you get with this deal.


You should be happy that Gibraltar was not considered such an important issue as the Irish border. If it had been, then it would have been hammered down in the Exit Agreement, just like the Irish backstop has been. I'm quite sure that would have been even less to your liking. At least for now nothing has changed for the UK with regard to Gibraltar.


The salary bit doesn't actually refer to salaries earned in their respective home countries. It does refer to the salary that is offered for the jobs they intend to take in the UK. In that respect a doctor from Dehli is more likely to meet the requirements than for example someone from Canada (especially if that person isn't particullary skilled).
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I don't think it's true to say no other deal is possible. What isn't possible is a bespoke deal but we could I think agree to join the EEA for example before the deadline.

Non-EU immigration is a ******** (a lot of it of TM's own making) and her nonsense on queue-jumping was pathetic. She is the one who wanted to create a hostile environment for immigrants after all.
 
BobTheCoward said:
Do you honestly think it is possible to get another deal done right now? In three months?
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No, but it is possible to simply admit that no possible Brexit deal will benefit the UK economy as much as remaining in the EU, but I'm not holding my breath.

Also remember this 'deal' just covers leaving, all the hard work about the UK's relationship with the EU post Brexit is still to be done. Given how long its taken to come up with this incredibly vague and woolly statement that's hardly likely to be a swift and painless process.
 
Garrison said:
No, but it is possible to simply admit that no possible Brexit deal will benefit the UK economy as much as remaining in the EU, but I'm not holding my breath.

Also remember this 'deal' just covers leaving, all the hard work about the UK's relationship with the EU post Brexit is still to be done. Given how long its taken to come up with this incredibly vague and woolly statement that's hardly likely to be a swift and painless process.
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Do we know if most leave voters thought it would improve the economy?
 
BobTheCoward said:
Do we know if most leave voters thought it would improve the economy?
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The Leave campaign certainly claimed we would have a trade deal as good if not better than the one we currently have with the EU, see the quotes Ian Osborne posted earlier. The general idea was that the UK was so important to the EU they would bend over backwards to accommodate us, at least that was what Leave claimed publicly.
 
Garrison said:
The Leave campaign certainly claimed we would have a trade deal as good if not better than the one we currently have with the EU, see the quotes Ian Osborne posted earlier. The general idea was that the UK was so important to the EU they would bend over backwards to accommodate us, at least that was what Leave claimed publicly.
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Is there polling of the voters?
 
BobTheCoward said:
Do you honestly think it is possible to get another deal done right now? In three months?
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To quote one of May's own tautisms, 'Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed'.

Of course, you can carrying on negotiating until you are happy.

Or are you one of these people who rationalises, 'Oh dear the wing mirror is hanging off and the tail lights don't work. The brakes are faulty, but I can discuss that with the smarmy car salesman another day. I'll take it. After all the poor salesman is getting a bit tired of my constantly asking for a car that meets my clear specifications. After all, his satisfaction is of more importance and priority than mine. OOOPS! The engine has just fallen out. Never mind <shrug> this is the only possible deal. I'll just have to take it and tough titties if the bumpers look a bit bent.'

Thinks to self: now I am going to have to sell my decision to the wife. Let me see. What about. 'Darling it is in the interest of our household. We ccannot go back to the car dealership and ask for a better deal. It's either the old banger I've just bought for £21K or nothing. Is that what you want? Arguments and divisions int he family about whose turn it is to use the bike?'
 
Amazer said:
No other deal is possible before Brexit date... maybe it is possible to change a few details here and there but other than that...


You are out of time.... you either take this deal or you crash out without one. Crashing out is going to be quite a bit worse than what you get with this deal.


You should be happy that Gibraltar was not considered such an important issue as the Irish border. If it had been, then it would have been hammered down in the Exit Agreement, just like the Irish backstop has been. I'm quite sure that would have been even less to your liking. At least for now nothing has changed for the UK with regard to Gibraltar.


The salary bit doesn't actually refer to salaries earned in their respective home countries. It does refer to the salary that is offered for the jobs they intend to take in the UK. In that respect a doctor from Dehli is more likely to meet the requirements than for example someone from Canada (especially if that person isn't particullary skilled).
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AIUI if the doctor from Delhi wants to bring his dear lady wife with him SHE has to prove she has a salary of £30K to come to. How likely is that if they have young children?
 
BobTheCoward said:
Moving the goalposts.
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Vixen said:
AIUI if the doctor from Delhi wants to bring his dear lady wife with him SHE has to prove she has a salary of £30K to come to. How likely is that if they have young children?
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There is usually different rules for dependents... it's usually enough to show that there is an ongoing, long-term relationship (I'm case of spouses/partners).

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk
 
Garrison said:
I believe that is the subtext of the agreement, we have essentially agreed to what kind of dive we will perform when we jump off the cliff.
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Not quite. We have decided that after we jump off the cliff we will then decide on a) what type of dive we want and b) where we hope to land.

Meanwhile the leavers are claiming that once we jump we will grow wings and/or negotiate a deal in which gravity won’t apply to us.
 
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Vixen said:
Or are you one of these people who rationalises, 'Oh dear the wing mirror is hanging off and the tail lights don't work. The brakes are faulty, but I can discuss that with the smarmy car salesman another day. I'll take it. After all the poor salesman is getting a bit tired of my constantly asking for a car that meets my clear specifications. After all, his satisfaction is of more importance and priority than mine. OOOPS! The engine has just fallen out. Never mind <shrug> this is the only possible deal. I'll just have to take it and tough titties if the bumpers look a bit bent.'
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The big difference is that if you are not happy with what a car dealer offers, to can check whether another one can make a better offer.

In the case at and, there is no alternative. You need to take what the car dealer offers you or have not car at all.
 
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