Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

[MRC_Hans]

You seem to be under the delusion that the atmosphere is 2D .
You have ths totally missed the point:
Air in low pressure areas rotates about an axis not a point.

Yeah, and while we are at it, you forgot this one, Bjarne:

Even assuming there was some kind of gravity center in the air column, how would that make the air rotate? Gavity does not make things rotate. Not even your imaginary kind of gravity.

Before you explain this, all else is moot.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

You seem to be under the delusion that the atmosphere is 2D .
You have this totally missed the point:
Air in low pressure areas rotates about an axis not a point.

Axis or point?
I can see you have got the point.
Not bad.

Clouds systems are extended masses, like galaxies or cluster of galaxies. MUCH stronger CENTRAL gravity than you believe is there, strong enough to start weak rotation.

When first the rotation have started, - vapour + warm air + over long distance when wind moves north south, yes the Coriolis also mix up to, - all this fast reinforce the process..

And it is started when air moves in to replace the rising air, by the Coriolis effect.

Now stop this crap
The Coriolis only effects thing on big scale.
When it comes to how the rotation of hurricanes STARTS “we” believe a coincidence can start a such.

Now PLEASE watch this video and you’ll see how the believe is >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f45jA5UxB0

And notice the idea that a stupid innocent small whirlpool can start a hurricane. For example the breath from a hunchbacked African cow. This idea is STUPID + NAIVE idea and not proven.

Furthermore the Coriolis only affect wind mowing either south or north.
This is NOT what you see at this video.

Here by us the Coriolis most of the time it is part of the game, but it doesn’t trigger a low pressure, It only “bend” north or south moving winds.

Still vapour + heat AND GRAVITY is also part of the game too.

Even assuming there was some kind of gravity center in the air column, how would that make the air rotate? Gravity does not make things rotate. Not even your imaginary kind of gravity.

When everything moves towards the same point – it will begin to rotate, there is no other possibilities.

Much stronger central gravity in clouds system is a consequence of this theory., What will you say the day that it is proven that central gravity really is misunderstood. ?

Yes we can, - really pretty easy and relative “cheap” prevent / weaken any hurricane / cyclone worldwide. It is MUCH cheaper that paying the cost for the destruction.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Clouds systems are extended masses, like galaxies or cluster of galaxies. MUCH stronger CENTRAL gravity than you believe is there, strong enough to start weak rotation.

The difference is that there is no mass near galaxies, but a cloud system is surrounded by mass, and in fact the cloud system has lewer mass than the surrounding air.

When first the rotation have started, - vapour + warm air + over long distance when wind moves north south, yes the Coriolis also mix up to, - all this fast reinforce the process..

How does gravity result in rotation? Bjarne, it is no use you try to dodge this question, I'm going to pester you with it till you answer.

Now stop this crap
The Coriolis only effects thing on big scale.

No. It almost affcts things on the kitchen sink scale. Even the smallest cloud has a whirlwind leading up to it. Bjarne, this is FACT. Deal with it.

And

notice the idea that a stupid innocent small whirlpool can start a hurricane. For example the breath from a hunchbacked African cow. This idea is STUPID + NAIVE idea and not proven.

Bjarne all that, in the video, is about chaos theory. It is irrelevant to this discussion, and you can't understand it anyway. Forget about it.

Furthermore the Coriolis only affect wind mowing either south or north.

This is almost frightening stupid. If half the winds around a low pressure start veering to the left, what exactly do you think the rest of them have to do?

Here by us the Coriolis most of the time it is part of the game, but it doesn’t trigger a low pressure, It only “bend” north or south moving winds.

Nobody has said it triggers the low pressure. Rising air triggers the low pressure. The Coriolis effect makes it rotate.

Still vapour + heat AND GRAVITY is also part of the game too.

Not for the rotation.

When everything moves towards the same point – it will begin to rotate, there is no other possibilities.

What?? It rotates due to the Coriolis effect. If there was no Coriolis effect, and no other source of angular momentum, it would not rotate at all.

Much stronger central gravity in clouds system is a consequence of this theory.,

There is no gravity center in a cloud system because it is lighter than the surrounding air.

Yes we can, - really pretty easy and relative “cheap” prevent / weaken any hurricane / cyclone worldwide. It is MUCH cheaper that paying the cost for the destruction.

Bjarne, this is not Bob the Builder. This is the real world. We don't know any useful method of stopping a hurricane (otherwise we would have been doing it). There are some theories, but they are either impractical or implausible. Some of them are both.

Hans

 

[Reality Check]

Axis or point?
I can see you have got the point.
Not bad.
....

You are still ignorant of the point .
A hurricane rotates about an axis not a point. The real atmosphere is 3-dimensional, not 2-dimensional as in Bjarne's pet cow universe.

MRC Hans post points out your ignorance about this (yet again) but then we should not be surpried given:

The fatal flaws and basic ignorance in Bjarne's ideas in his threads
​

The physics of a low pressure system building into a hurricane is basically:​

• Heated air rises. This causes clouds to form.​
• Air flows into replace the heated air.​
• This means that there is wind flowing in all directions into the center of the system.​
• The Coriolis effect is only zero when the velocity of the object is along the axis of rotation. It acts on both north/south and east/west winds. It does not "only affect wind mowing either south or north" as you stated.
  Coriolis effect
  

  In general, observed horizontally, looking along the direction of the movement causing the acceleration, the acceleration always is turned 90° to the right and of the same size regardless of the horizontal orientation.

  Coriolis effect
  

  If a low-pressure area forms in the atmosphere, air will tend to flow in towards it, but will be deflected perpendicular to its velocity by the Coriolis force. A system of equilibrium can then establish itself creating circular movement, or a cyclonic flow. Because the Rossby number is low, the force balance is largely between the pressure gradient force acting towards the low-pressure area and the Coriolis force acting away from the center of the low pressure.

• We end up with a rotating mass of clouds triggered and sustained by heated air.​

 

[MRC_Hans]

You are still ignorant of the point .
A hurricane rotates about an axis not a point. The real atmosphere is 3-dimensional, not 2-dimensional as in Bjarne's pet cow universe.

MRC Hans post points out your ignorance about this (yet again) but then we should not be surpried given:

The fatal flaws and basic ignorance in Bjarne's ideas in his threads
​

The physics of a low pressure system building into a hurricane is basically:

• Heated air rises. This causes clouds to form.​
• Air flows into replace the heated air.​
• This means that there is wind flowing in all directions into the center of the system.​
• The Coriolis effect is only zero when the velocity of the object is along the axis of rotation. It acts on both north/south and east/west winds. It does not "only affect wind mowing either south or north" as you stated.
  

  Coriolis effect​

  
  

  Coriolis effect​

  
  ​
• We end up with a rotating mass of clouds triggered and sustained by heated air.​

You are trying to tell this to someone who doesn't know how many square meters are in a square kilometer, and who thinks inertia is superstition.


Hans

 

[Bjarne]

It acts on both north/south and east/west winds. It does not "only affect wind mowing either south or north" as you stated

(point = east/west air motion is not causing any rotation due to Coriolis )

The difference is that there is no mass near galaxies, but a cloud system is surrounded by mass, and in fact the cloud system has lewer mass than the surrounding air.

If this was true a droplet should be lighter than air.

I am sure you either did not read the link RC has shown, or you did not understood anything of the content.
http://www.jimloy.com/physics/clouds.htm

I hope an intelligent cow one day will feel compassion.
If you’re really want to understand I am 100 % sure Caroline will help you to a higher understanding.

Bjarne
Now stop this crap
The Coriolis only effects thing on big scale.
Hans
No. It almost affcts things on the kitchen sink scale

You (must) then mean: also mother cow should begin to rotate ?

Try this
Because the Earth rotates only once per day, the Coriolis force is quite small, and its effects generally become noticeable only for motions occurring over large distances and long periods of time, such as large-scale movement of air in the atmosphere or water in the ocean.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect

Then try this....
http://mechanical-physics.suite101....t-toilets--drains-in-north--south-hemispheres

Bjarne all that, in the video, is about chaos theory. It is irrelevant to this discussion, and you can't understand it anyway. Forget about it.

You (must) mean Chaos religion because this is off course not knowledge.
Amen.

 

[Paul]

It's a pity Bjarne is incapable of reading anything that he doesn't think* confirms his ridiculous notions.









*he's usually completely wrong

 

[Reality Check]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/images/smilies/doglaugh.gif
(point = east/west air motion is not causing any rotation due to Coriolis )

point = The Coriolis force makes east/westnorth/southNE/NW/SW/.... winds to change direction. The Coriolis effect is only zero when the velocity of the object is along the axis of of the local coordinate system (or at the poles). Wind in any direction along the surface of the Earth is perpendicular to this axis wich causes the winds to rotate around the axis.

Flow around a low-pressure area due to the Coriolis force

If a low-pressure area forms in the atmosphere, air will tend to flow in towards it, but will be deflected perpendicular to its velocity by the Coriolis force. A system of equilibrium can then establish itself creating circular movement, or a cyclonic flow. Because the Rossby number is low, the force balance is largely between the pressure gradient force acting towards the low-pressure area and the Coriolis force acting away from the center of the low pressure.

FYI: Bjarne, the Wikipedia page has some pretty pictures that show this (see figures 13 and 14). You may be able to understand these.
Don't bother with the math. It involves vectors and trigonometry which is obviously beyond your intellect (ask your pet cow to explain them instead )

The fatal flaws and basic ignorance in Bjarne's ideas in his threads
​

 

[MRC_Hans]

(point = east/west air motion is not causing any rotation due to Coriolis )

It isn't. I didn't say it is. It is enough that the north/south moving air does.

If this was true a droplet should be lighter than air.

No. You don't/won't understand this. However, we have objective evidence: Air pressure. End of discussion.

I am sure you either did not read the link RC has shown, or you did not understood anything of the content.
http://www.jimloy.com/physics/clouds.htm

So you point me to a link that explains that clouds are lighter than air, to show me that clouds are heavier than air?

You (must) then mean: also mother cow should begin to rotate ?

Well, if you flush her out your kitchen sink......

Try this
Because the Earth rotates only once per day, the Coriolis force is quite small, and its effects generally become noticeable only for motions occurring over large distances and long periods of time, such as large-scale movement of air in the atmosphere or water in the ocean.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect

Again trying to prove yourself right by referenceing texts that prove you wrong. Have you had your head examined, recently? That text specifically mentions that it is the Coriolis force that makes air rotate around a low pressure.

But, thank you for making my point.

Then try this....
http://mechanical-physics.suite101....t-toilets--drains-in-north--south-hemispheres

I was absolutely referring to this myth, and I deliberately wrote almost to kitchen sink level. But, your reading comprehension seems to be more or less on par with your math skills.

You (must) mean Chaos religion because this is off course not knowledge.
Amen.

It is certainly not a level of knowledge you are likely to ever achieve, unless you change your ways radically.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Just noticed this :

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1482542

Note how Bjarne has the chance to listen to highly qualified people, but gets himself placed on ignore in no time at all.

Bjarne, lest the same happens to you here, I suggest you:

1) Skip all references to cows.

2) Adopt a slightly more humble attitude.

3) Start actually reading posts and referenced texts.

4) Try to wrap your mind around the possibility that you could actually be mistaken.

Preferably starting NOW!

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

The Coriolis effect is only zero when the velocity of the object is along the axis of of the local coordinate system (or at the poles).

This is really really silly after 17 years at a University RC
So long there is NO ROTATION of a cloud system moving straight east to > west, - the Coriolis do NOT affect anything moving that direction, - not a water drop, not a air molecule, not a aircraft and even not mother cow.

EVERTHING from the smallest molecule to even a big elephant is UNTOUCHED by Coriolis.

NOTHING at all is in this case is affected by Coriolis.

The Coriolis CANNOT mix into the process before:

1. The air moving direction is north/south /& oppesite - or
2. A conneted large system is there 3.) started in a way where Coriolis NOT is responsible.

This means that a cloud-system MUST have begun to rotate already.
Otherwise wind would just move a little slower further north (form central Africa), - and hence no rotation.

I repeat CAN NOT.

Like 2 cars, - when one car is faster than another, at a east > west Autobahn, I hope you do not believe that these car would begin to rotate around each other (?) unless something else is mixing into this process.

A LARGE SYSTEM either already MUST rotate OR held together otherwise (e.g.: by gravity) and MOVE LIKE A HUGE UNIT > BEFORE < Coriolis can take part.

Simply because Coriolis is: ONLY = relative atmospheric speed difference between NORTH AND SOUTH. – and therefore it can ONLY affect ON LARGE SCALE, and ONLY if we speak about a exsiting BIGUNIT (much much much bigger than a big cow).

A hurricane IS a SYSTEM ON LARGE SCALE.

A air molecule, a water drop, and even a cow are NOT.

I believe I again wasted my time. Concrete = Concrete.

we have objective evidence: Air pressure

Imaging 100 cows walking on Jensens ploughed field, - this is almost the “same” as a high pressure. Instead we can call 100 cows – (500 Kg each) for: a Cow-High-pressure.

NOW when a tornado exert a “LIFT UP” in all these 100 cows = upwards pull >450 KG of each, - this day each cow ONLY weight 50 KG on the earth (and could soon be airborne).

We can say this day we have a cow-low-pressure on the EARTH.
But This does not mean cows are lighter than air.

So if air is "lighter one day" - cows could also be lighter, and this is what we can measure with a weight or a barometer.
Still I wonder if you have got the point, Here a little more compressed version: warm air / vapour gives "air" > lift up - and sometimes also cows.
I have repeated this serveral times. But I don't think this attemp should could penetrate the concrete either.

But yes yes well well vapour is also lighter than air I can give you a little "+" here, - BUT only if you promise me you understand the cow-low/high-pressure measured on Jens peter Jensen field - different days...... Please do it scientific objective , measure the 100-cow-low-pressure (on the field) from time to time, - But use a heavy weight to this not a barometer.

*** END OF DISCUSSION. ***

 

[MRC_Hans]

This is really really silly after 17 years at a University RC
So long there is NO ROTATION of a cloud system moving straight east to > west, - the Coriolis do NOT affect anything moving that direction, - not a water drop, not a air molecule, not a aircraft and even not mother cow.

Psssst! Bjarne: It is the Earth that is rotating, creating the Coriolis effect.

- Last time I looked, the Earth rotates all the time.

Simply because Coriolis is: ONLY = relative atmospheric speed difference between NORTH AND SOUTH. – and therefore it can ONLY affect ON LARGE SCALE, and ONLY if we speak about a exsiting BIGUNIT (much much much bigger than a big cow).

Most clouds are larger than most cows.

I believe I again wasted my time.

Absolutely not, Bjarne: You are providing constant entertainment.

Imaging 100 cow walking on Jensens ploughed field, - this is almost the “same” as a low high pressure. Instead we can call 100 cows – (500 Kg each) for: a Cow-High-pressure.

Just when I thought you could not get more silly, you surprise me.

Still I wonder if you have got the point, Here a little more compressed version: warm air / vapour gives "air" > lift up - and sometimes also cows.

I know all this is also over your head, but aerodynamic lift always resolves into pressure differentials. For an airstream to lift anything, including cows, there needs to be a low pressure above it and a high(er) pressure below it. Whatever the airstream lifts, it will reflect in the pressure below.

I have repeated this serveral times.

Well, no matter how often you repeat nonsense, it remains .... nonsense.

But yes yes well well vapour is also lighter than air I can give you a little + here,

Note to readers: Bjarne sometimes throws these little tidbits, which makes it seem he is not entirely beyond learning, unfortunately experience shows this to be an illusion.

But, Bjarne, nice to see that you have finally read the references. Thank you for conceding this point. Now try to think through the consequences.

*** END OF DISCUSSION. ***

Oh? Well then, thank you for playing and goodbye.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Psssst! Bjarne: It is the Earth that is rotating, creating the Coriolis Effect.

And wind moves too.
The atmosphere by equator compared to here is moving faster.

Most clouds are larger than most cows.

Still you cannot accuse Coriolis for trigger any rotation, so long the wind flow is e.g.; east – west.

Just when I thought you could not get more silly, you surprise me.

It is silly repeatedly to ignore that upwards moving wind "is lighter".
I have explained that to you MANY times, if you can continue to ignore such simple knowledge you ask for silly cow-low-pressure “illustrations”.

I know all this is also over your head, but aerodynamic lift always resolves into pressure differentials. For an airstream to lift anything, including cows, there needs to be a low pressure above it and a high(er) pressure below it. Whatever the airstream lifts, it will reflect in the pressure below.

It is the same as a truck driver say; - if I must drive the truck the whole day -it must be more road ahead, - otherwise I'll get stuck. ( is that above you head Hans ? )

The Point: = OFF COURSE there is low pressure above, a low pressure is an air-stream.

 

[MRC_Hans]

And wind moves too.
The atmosphere by equator compared to here is moving faster.

Yes, good, Bjarne. That is the reason for the Coriolis effect. Gold star for you.

Still you cannot accuse Coriolis for trigger any rotation, so long the wind flow is e.g.; east – west.

Accuse? Trigger? The rotation begins when air starts to move towards the low pressure to replace the rising air. As air moves in from all directions, some of it gets deflected by the Coriolis force, and the whole mass of air begins to rotate. Please, try to actually read the article I posted for your benefit. It is all in there. I'm not talking about the general wind (although that is also subject to the Coriolis force). I don't claim that some air suddenly starts to rotate. The low pressure starts by air being forced upwards. There can be other reasons, but in these discussions we have limited ourseves to thermals. So far, there is no rotation, the warm air bubble just rises because it is lighter. However, it can't leave a vacuum, so air must move in from all sides to replace it. Even under a fairly small thermal bubble, the air is pulled in from hundreds, or even thousands of meters. This air is subject to the Coriolis force and starts to rotate.

All the above is well-observed fact.

It is silly repeatedly to ignore that upwards moving wind "is lighter".

Nice try at projecting your own fallacies, but we are far too experienced to fall for that. You, Bjarne, are the one who has tried to ignore this fact. It is good that you now acknowledge that you were wrong.

The Point: = OFF COURSE there is low pressure above, a low pressure is an air-stream.

No. A low pressure is, as you have already recognized earlier, a sign that the weight of the column of air is lower. Air pressure differentials travel at the speed of sound, and the pressure created by the airstream carrying a weight will almost immidiately reflect on the pressure measured on the surface.

(Note: A fast airstream can create a low pressure under certain conditions, but that is not relevant to this.)

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

The rotation begins when air begins to move towards the low pressure to replace the rising air.

Do you agree that even the rotation of a big tornado, is MUCH too small to that the Coriolis can be accused for anything. WHY does it at all begin to rotate?
We don't know.
Forget chaos theory, this is religion, not science.

Air moves in from all directions, some of it gets deflected by the Coriolis force, and the whole mass of air begins to rotate.

It is easy to come to this conclusion when you see wind moving e.g.; north > south.
But when air is moving straight -> east > west, - you must include the chaos theory otherwise it will not work.
Think a while how silly this idea is, - the breath from a African cow “should” trigger a whirlpools, - all right yes this is possible, - and this end up as a hurricane in New Orleans ? – Come on man, - this screams to heaven for help, - and especially when you add all what we admit not is understood according to hurricanes.

When a low pressure extend over relative long distance, yes then Coriolis contribute a lot to speed up the wind speed, rising vapour and heat as well.

But when wind moves straight east, - the Coriolis can in no way start the rotation alone, - something must “connect” keep the extended mass together from the beginning?

I wrote above; air and vapour begins to move towards the center of a low pressure, due to gravity (ADG), - this is not always necessary.

Now imaging a cloud-system with the diameter of ø 500 km moving straight east > west.

So soon you understand gravity as a “space vacuum” – you’ll also understand that a huge cloud system area is not only a herd of single independent molecules, - BUT a UNITY held together by the COMMON magnitude of a common space vacuum.

So when a such huge area have a lot of heavy clouds and extend widely, YES in this case the Coriolis only need gravity “to (a certain degree to) hold the cloud system together”.

Coriolis can in such case trigger the rotation itself. - Rising air/vapour moving towards the center will reinforce the process and a hurricane is born.

So what is the mission in this case: - well gravity must have a certain magnitude to be hold a cloud system together (to a certian degree)?

This means a certain amount of mass must be available. So the mission is to dust-bomb heavy clouds system strategic places west from Africa, when there are too many heavy clouds too close, until the mass is below the critical point.

According to the prevailing understanding gravity is not so strong. The problem is similar to that we also not understand that the mass of a galaxy is proportional to the magnitude of its black hole. Gravity is always a unity.

 

[Bjarne]

g2+g3+g4 = Local heavy clouds Common Gravitionel centers

g1 = Common Gravitionel Center.

Between local gravitionel center and the common gravitionel center, there is large mass attraction. - Ion this case Coriolis triggers rotation, of the common system..

 

[Reality Check]

http://www.science27.com/forum/cor.jpg
...snipp gibberish...

Pretty picture, Bjarne - can you do bunnies?

The fatal flaws and basic ignorance in Bjarne's ideas in his threads
(original full list to which more points have been linked)
​

 

[Reality Check]

This is really really silly after 17 years at a University RC
...snipped gibberish...
*** END OF DISCUSSION. ***

This is even more really really silly after 17 years of ignorance, Bjarne.

It looks like you and your pet cow are not talking - ask it to explain the math and pretty pictures in: Flow around a low-pressure area due to the Coriolis force

If a low-pressure area forms in the atmosphere, air will tend to flow in towards it, but will be deflected perpendicular to its velocity by the Coriolis force. A system of equilibrium can then establish itself creating circular movement, or a cyclonic flow. Because the Rossby number is low, the force balance is largely between the pressure gradient force acting towards the low-pressure area and the Coriolis force acting away from the center of the low pressure.

The physics of a low pressure system building into a hurricane is basically:

• Heated air rises. This causes clouds to form.​
• Air flows into replace the heated air.​
• This means that there is wind flowing in all directions into the center of the system.​
• The Coriolis effect is only zero when the velocity of the object is along the axis of of the local coordinate system (or at the poles). Wind in any direction along the surface of the Earth is perpendicular to this axis which causes the winds to rotate around the axis.
  
  ​
• We end up with a rotating mass of clouds triggered and sustained by heated air.

The fatal flaws and basic ignorance in Bjarne's ideas in his threads

(original full list to which more points have been linked)
​

*** END OF DISCUSSION. ***
​

 

[phunk]

Do you agree that even the rotation of a big tornado, is MUCH too small to that the Coriolis can be accused for anything. WHY does it at all begin to rotate?
We don't know.

Yes, we do know. Wind sheer at the boundary between two layers of air moving at different speeds.

 

[Reality Check]

Yes, we do know. Wind sheer at the boundary between two layers of air moving at different speeds.

That is right - we do know (but Bjarne will continue to be ignorant of this).
He also remains ignorant of the fact that the Coriolis force is not caused by the rotation of weather systems like tornadoes or cyclones or hurricanes. It is caused by the rotation of the Earth.
Tornadoes have large Rossby numbers (ratio of inertial to Coriolis forces) from the large characteristic velocity divided by the small length scale. This means that the Coriolis force is negligible for tornadoes.