Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

[Paul]

So what you in fact are saying is; that clouds should not be floating on the sky, but “should” immediately begin to fall to the ground. (!)

No, nein, ne, nej, nie, nu, nee, naa, nei, non, nem and just in case you are still having trouble with concept, that is not the case.

Nobody is saying it and nobody but you is having trouble with it.

So what are all the clouds doing up there

Being clouds, if they were lower they would be mist or fog.

Remember all that stuff about warm moist air and condensation points that you keep ignoring?

why do you believe that gravity doesn’t seem to be able to pull down the clouds

That has been explained many times.

 

[MRC_Hans]

So what you in fact are saying is; that clouds should not be floating on the sky, but “should” immediately begin to fall to the ground. (!) - ?

So what are all the clouds doing up there (again today), why do you believe that gravity doesn’t seem to be able to pull down the clouds / drops down. .?

No, that is not what I am saying.

You asked for a distinction between a drop (raindrop) and a droplet that forms a mist. Clouds consist of droplets, which can be supported by Brownian motion. Once some of them collect to form drops, they start to fall like rain.

Bjarne, we seem to be off on a wild goose chase, here. What exactly are you trying to argue?

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Clouds consist of droplets, which can be supported by Brownian motion. Once some of them collect to form drops, they start to fall like rain.

Bjarne, we seem to be off on a wild goose chase, here. What exactly are you trying to argue?

That droplets are heavier than air.

 

[MRC_Hans]

That droplets are heavier than air.

OK, they are. And?

 

[Reality Check]

That droplets are heavier than air.

I will agree with MRC_Hans here: It is obvious that a droplet of water is heavier than the equivalent volume of air.
So what?
Droplets are kept aloft by Brownian motion combined with turbulence and uprising air. Drops are droplets that have grown big enough so that their weight is too much for Brownian motion and uprising air to keep them aloft.

Perhaps it is a problem with English. Droplet is a diminutive form of the word 'drop'. Diminutive means that the resulting word ('droplet') is a lesser form of the root word ('drop'). So a doplet is a small drop.

If it is a problem with the science: What Holds A Cloud Up In The Sky?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I think Bjarne is trying to claim that a thundercloud is somehow heavier (has higher density) than the surrounding air.

He wants this to be true, because he has claimed that 'central gravity' plays a role in formation of such weather systems. For this to make even any logical sense, he needs some kind of mass concentration in the cloud, so he is eager to make believe that there is a lot of water stored there in liquid or solid form.

I don't know why he wants to pursue this idea, because his own calculation of such a gravity field, even under very optimistic (=unrealistic) premises, showed that the acceleration was absolutely negligible compared to the other factors. IIRR, he had his air accelerated to less then 10m/s in 24 hours, and he has still failed to explain why the direction should be rotational.

On the latter, I suppose he could call on the Coriolis effect, but I suspect he has no idea what that is.

Anyhow, even cows know that the air pressure under a thunderstorm is lower than normal, which sort of puts an end to any speculation about higher mass. However, in Bjarne's universe, there is no such thing as thermodynamics (another concept he doesn't even know the existence of), so he believes a vertical air stream can carry a weight without any impact on the air pressure below it.

Hans

 

[dafydd]

At least I'm learning something.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Perhaps it is a problem with English. Droplet is a diminutive form of the word 'drop'. Diminutive means that the resulting word ('droplet') is a lesser form of the root word ('drop'). So a doplet is a small drop.

Well, we might cut Bjarne some slack here, since diminutives are very rare in the Danish language. OTOH, it should be nothing new to anyone with even a primary school knowledge of English.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

RC Wrote:
I will agree with MRC_Hans here: It is obvious that a droplet of water is heavier than the equivalent volume of air.
So what?
Droplets are kept aloft by Brownian motion combined with turbulence and uprising air. Drops are droplets that have grown big enough so that their weight is too much for Brownian motion and uprising air to keep them aloft

Correct...

Perhaps it is a problem with English. Droplet is a diminutive form of the word 'drop'. Diminutive means that the resulting word ('droplet') is a lesser form of the root word ('drop'). So a doplet is a small drop.

It is water, and hence pretty simple to understand it belong to the ground.

So the question is why does it not fall. And yes you have answered that question correct.
If it is a problem with the science: What Holds A Cloud Up In The Sky?

Yes this is the essence.

I did already prepare a image, (now it is not necessary anymore, anyway here it is).
Which area are the most heavy of the areas above , (?) .........( Just read the link above).

He wants this to be true, because he has claimed that 'central gravity' plays a role in formation of such weather systems.

Low pressure would not happen the way they did, without gravity triggering the starting gun.

We certainly have misunderstood central gravity.

The mass of clouds, - sometimes from within up to one billion square kilometer, - can automatically encircles a central point in space, - just above the heads of us.

This is the place where a low pressure weakly begins to rotate.

If some part of cloud system (responsible for a low pressure) get disturbs by strong wind, or of rain falls some places, the low pressure simply just automatically dislocate, an even change it path.

The day we understand this, we will also understand how to force a hurricane to change direction.

Thousands of ton dust can force huge amount to rain to fall, - this is enough to that we sometimes can control or weaken a hurricane already on its way.
BUT often this will be a fight as David against Goliath. – Must of the time Goliath will be the winner does matter what we does.

As mentioned, it is the beginning of the weak rotation of a hurricane that later will make it huge and dangerous.

Gravity is only causing the weak beginning rotation;
This will trigger a escalation where it suddenly and fast is the energy of the rising air + vapour that complete the job.

West Africa (and few other places) is the places to fight hurricanes (and, before these starts, this is the challenge for us,...

I believe the big United within 10 years will have a Air force base west from Africa, with innocent dust bombers.

Let say that one piece of dust can force 500 times its own weight rain to fall. I believe this is enough. Based on new understanding computers can calculate exactly what to do and where.

 

[Reality Check]

It is water, and hence pretty simple to understand it belong to the ground.

It is water, and hence pretty simple to understand it is H2O and belongs in clouds, the ground, comets, planets, interstellar space, etc.

Low pressure would not happen the way they did, without gravity triggering the starting gun.

Gravity is not a "trigger" for low pressure areas. Heat is the primary factor.

We certainly have misunderstood central gravity.

Who is we?
You have certainly misunderstood gravity.
You have certainly misunderstood that the Dumus Vista experiment disproves your "central gravity" idea.

 

[Bjarne]

It is water, and hence pretty simple to understand it is H2O and belongs in clouds, the ground, comets, planets, interstellar space, etc.

You forgot: and inside the cow.

Gravity is not a "trigger" for low pressure areas. Heat is the primary factor.

Gravity is the basic trigger.

Who is we?

You’ll see

 

[Reality Check]

You forgot: and inside the cow.

I also forgot: and inside your head.

Gravity is the basic trigger.

There is no trigger and gravity is not the cause of low pressure areas.

• There are thermal lows driven by heat.
• There are low pressure areas driven by winds.

You’ll see

I know who "we" is - it is you and your pet cow.

 

[MRC_Hans]

http://www.science27.com/forum/clouds.jpg
I did already prepare a image, (now it is not necessary anymore, anyway here it is).
Which area are the most heavy of the areas above , (?) .........( Just read the link above).

The hight of the cloud base has nothing to do with the weight or density of the cloud. Not even with whether we would call it a 'heavy cloud'. I have already explained what determines the cloud base.

Low pressure would not happen the way they did, without gravity triggering the starting gun.

Of couse gravity plays a role, because hot air would not rise were it not for gravity.

We certainly have misunderstood central gravity.

No, YOU have misunderstood gravity. Or rather, you haven't understood it at all.

The mass of clouds, - sometimes from within up to one billion square kilometer, - can automatically encircles a central point in space, - just above the heads of us.

This is the place where a low pressure weakly begins to rotate.

Ehr, no. Try to think, Bjarne: You are claiming that the cloud is the beginnig of the cloud. That is absurd, and anyway it is wrong.

The low pressure starts because air starts to rise. It begins to rotate due to the Coriolis effect.

If some part of cloud system (responsible for a low pressure) get disturbs by strong wind, or of rain falls some places, the low pressure simply just automatically dislocate, an even change it path.

Gibberish.

The day we understand this, we will also understand how to force a hurricane to change direction.

Gibberish.

Thousands of ton dust can force huge amount to rain to fall, - this is enough to that we sometimes can control or weaken a hurricane already on its way.

We already know this.

As mentioned, it is the beginning of the weak rotation of a hurricane that later will make it huge and dangerous.

No. It is the supply of hot, moist air that makes it big. The rotation is always there, even in a small summer cloud over the fields.

Gravity is only causing the weak beginning rotation;
This will trigger a escalation where it suddenly and fast is the energy of the rising air + vapour that complete the job.

Gravity is not causing the rotation.

West Africa (and few other places) is the places to fight hurricanes (and, before these starts, this is the challenge for us,...

Wrong. You can't stop all the little clouds and eddies, and you can't know which one will have the right conditions to grow into a hurricane.


Hans

 

[ArcturusA]

The mass of clouds, - sometimes from within up to one billion square kilometer, - can automatically encircles a central point in space, - just above the heads of us.

Err...Bjarne, there aren't even a billiion square kilometres on the entire surface of the Earth.

 

[dafydd]

Err...Bjarne, there aren't even a billiion square kilometres on the entire surface of the Earth.

Lol.You people have the patience of saints.

 

[Bjarne]

Bjarne, there aren't even a billiion square kilometres

1000*1000 - I mean of course million km² - or - billion m² .

The hight of the cloud base has nothing to do with the weight or density of the cloud. Not even with whether we would call it a 'heavy cloud'. I have already explained what determines the cloud base.

Most of the time heavy dark clouds is hanging lower than for example bright white clouds.

Of couse gravity plays a role, because hot air would not rise were it not for gravity.

It is the circulation / rotation around a central point that is the point.

Ehr, no. Try to think, Bjarne: You are claiming that the cloud is the beginnig of the cloud.

WHAT ?

The low pressure starts because air starts to rise.

If this was the case, air would just / ONLY rise.

It begins to rotate due to the Coriolis effect.

You should know this is crap.
Sometimes a hurricane is triggered, sometimes not
We do not understand what determinate "sometimes"

The Coriolis do first come into action pretty late in the process, the start of the rotation is not known / proven - but believed is due to coincidence.

Check this >> youtube – very good >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f45jA5UxB0

Gravity is not causing the rotation

I can guarantee you it is.

Bjarne
As mentioned, it is the beginning of the weak rotation of a hurricane that later will make it huge and dangerous.
Hans
No. It is the supply of hot, moist air that makes it big.
The rotation is always there, even in a small summer cloud over the fields.

Far from, - it is not, always there, also not by Africa, - watch this 3 minutes Video before more empty bla lalala. >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f45jA5UxB0

It is also a mystery why tornadoes begin to rotate.

And also hole in clouds as well is (not understood) and also caused by weak upwards rotation warm air / vapour.

Get use to it.
Gravity triggers the starting gun, also in thunderclouds. http://www.tightfitz.com/pics/New2006/Photo Gal 2/Stromlo_Thunder_Clouds-50W.jpg - http://www.science27.com/images/img_88.jpg

Wrong. You can't stop all the little clouds and eddies, and you can't know which one will have the right conditions to grow into a hurricane.

Wrong
The clouds close nearest the gravitionel center (of a beginning rotating cloud system) would obviously be the right place, - to attack /prevent or at least weakening a hurricane.

It is many time also a question of delaying the formation of a hurricane.
The later hurricanes (the rotation) begin the less time it has to grow strong.

To weakening an already existing hurricane, you can force it to change to the direction you want, by attaching its mass the right place.

It is all only a questions of understanding that the hurricanes low pressure center will be at the eye of the hurricane, - if you can force a hurricane to loss mass north from its path, the gravitionel center will relocate more south, - in this way it is realistic to force (the center) and thereby the hurricane away from for example a big city.

I am not the only way think so.
Read what Peter Cordarni said , actually he have try it, and it works, but he don’t know why.... http://www.wesh.com/news/3963137/detail.html

Once again, watch the Video, >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f45jA5UxB0

It takes time before a low pressure (down by west/central Africa) begins to rotate, this is because of the strong Easter wind, - gravity must be strong before the rotation can start.

We only need to weaken a beginning low pressure “a little” this will many times be enough to either delay or prevent the rotation to start. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f45jA5UxB0

We already know this.

We know we can force rain to fall, but we don't know that central gravity is triggering a devastating hurricane.

Gravity is the weakest link in this chain; - it is the most effective link to attack.

 

[MRC_Hans]

1000*1000 - I mean of course million km² - or - billion m² .

Well, then write what you mean.

Most of the time heavy dark clouds is hanging lower than for example bright white clouds.

They are because in moist air, the condensation point is higher. That is right, higher temperature. Thus, the cloud base is lower. AND in moist, warm air, the tendency for clouds to grow big is higher.

It is the circulation / rotation around a central point that is the point.

And it is started when air moves in to replace the rising air, by the Coriolis effect.

WHAT ?

Yeah, I knew you didn't understand your own argumentation.

If this was the case, air would just / ONLY rise.

No. When air rises, it has to be replaced, so air comes in from the sides, and starts to rotate, due to the Coriolis effect.

The Coriolis do first come into action pretty late in the process, the start of the rotation is not known / proven - but believed is due to coincidence.

No. Proven.

You don't have a clue. Give it up.

Hans

 

[Reality Check]

It is the circulation / rotation around a central point that is the point.

You seem to be under the delusion that the atmosphere is 2D .
You have ths totally missed the point:
Air in low pressure areas rotates about an axis not a point.

 

[ArcturusA]

1000*1000 - I mean of course million km² - or - billion m² .

Psst...a million km² isn't a billion m². It's 10¹² m².

This really all comes down to your apparent inability to understand physical units, which damages your credibility far more than anything else.

Lol.You people have the patience of saints.

When the big picture is so far gone, it's easier (and more fun) to get picky

 

[MRC_Hans]

Psst...a million km² isn't a billion m². It's 10¹² m².

This really all comes down to your apparent inability to understand physical units, which damages your credibility far more than anything else.

This is what makes the whole thing so surreal. Bjarne can't do the simplest math right, and his understanding of simple physics is somewhere around primary school 5th grade.

Yet, he imagines he can teach the scientific community something.

Hans