Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

[Paul]

Bjarne, which part of water vapour is less dense than dry air are you having trouble understanding?


from the Wikipedia entry on water vapour

At the same temperature, a column of dry air will be denser or heavier than a column of air containing any water vapor. Thus, any volume of dry air will sink if placed in a larger volume of moist air. Also, a volume of moist air will rise or be buoyant if placed in a larger region of dry air. As the temperature rises the proportion of water vapor in the air increases, and its buoyancy will increase. The increase in buoyancy can have a significant atmospheric impact, giving rise to powerful, moisture rich, upward air currents when the air temperature and sea temperature reaches 25 °C or above. This phenomenon provides a significant motivating force for cyclonic and anticyclonic weather systems (tornadoes and hurricanes).

 

[Bjarne]

Bjarne, which part of water vapour is less dense than dry air are you having trouble understanding?


At the same temperature, a column of dry air will be denser or heavier than a column of air containing any water vapor. Thus, any volume of dry air will sink if placed in a larger volume of moist air. Also, a volume of moist air will rise or be buoyant if placed in a larger region of dry air. As the temperature rises the proportion of water vapor in the air increases, and its buoyancy will increase. The increase in buoyancy can have a significant atmospheric impact, giving rise to powerful, moisture rich, upward air currents when the air temperature and sea temperature reaches 25 °C or above. This phenomenon provides a significant motivating force for cyclonic and anticyclonic weather systems (tornadoes and hurricanes).

from the Wikipedia entry on water vapour

And so far Mother cow know the temperature in 15 km altitude is colder and can contain more vapor / mass as warmer air.

 

[Paul]

Do you have a point yet?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I prefer the expression: disparate chaos science.

I'm sure you do. As I said, it's way over your head.

Wrong, how can you explain, the further you reach the center of a hurricane, the more rain.

No, that is actually not the case.

Notice the hurricane in its center can reach an altitude of 10 km.

Yes, I just told you that. I'm glad you noticed it. Actually it can reach even higher.

Rising warm air/vapors under the clouds and strong wind towards the low-pressure center can push vapour further inwards as well as upwards.

That was not the point. Wherever it is pushed, it must push something away; it cannot accumulate. That was the point. Air at 30degC can hold at most 3% water vapor.

And where do you believe that huge amount of water in the center comes from?

It is being supplied constantly by moist air being sucked in at the bottom. Actually, that is the engine of the hurricane.

So your believe a heavy thundercloud is really not heavy?

It is not a belief, it is a fact.

Hello what do you believe a heavy cloud is?

It is the expression we use for a big, dark cloud.

Where do you believe HUGE rainfall comes from?

It comes from moist air rising and condensing.

What do you believe happens with the vapors in 10 km altitude?

That depends very much on the condition.

Why do you think vapors is reaching very large altitude.

No, Bjarne, that was my question to you. Why does air rise in a thunderstorm?

Why do you think sooner or later that vapors/water begins to fall,

The vapors don't fall, but once they condense into water, they will eventually fall. As I told you, heavy things can't stay up in the air.

When the energy is out the buoyancy is gone. – This happens long before vapors reach 10 km altitude.

You obviously don't know what you are talking about.

Do you know a tornado can lift a cow, - it doesn't happen because of the energy of the cow, - but because of air under and around the cow push / pulls it upwards.

Yes, heavy stuff can be lifted by air, but what makes that air rise?

.. Bjarne, obviously, you are in over your head with this subject.

When I get the time, I will write a small tutorial on how clouds, thunderstoms and hurricanes work. Perhaps later today.

Hans

 

[The Man]

And so far Mother cow know the temperature in 15 km altitude is colder and can contain more vapor / mass as warmer air.

No, actually warmer air can contain more water vapor than cooler air. That is why you have a precipitant as the temperature of the air drops. A saturated solution becomes super saturated (by that drop in temperature) and thus precipitation. Your Mother cow (and you) evidently need to learn some more basic chemistry and Earth science.

 

[MRC_Hans]

And so far Mother cow know the temperature in 15 km altitude is colder and can contain more vapor / mass as warmer air.

Cold air can contain MORE vapor than warm air??


Bjarne, you are definitely getting your information from the rear end of that cow.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Bjarne
And so far Mother cow know the temperature in 15 km altitude is colder and can contain more vapor / mass as warmer air.
The Man
No, actually warmer air can contain more water vapor than cooler air.

I wrote; - vapor/mass - and also notice - quote: - it can contain more vapor / mass..... And it most of the time does due to strong upwards wind.

When warm air / warm vapor gets colder, the vapor condensate to drops, and fall. This mean more mass compared to a vapor/rain free area in the same altitude that not contain vapor/rain .

And as mention several times, upwards winds often prevents rain to fall , - which mean it can be more mass/vapor/rain in the colder higher altitude as in the (warmer) air below the clouds.

Warmer air from beneath is fast pushing mass+rain+vapour+cows much further upwards, where it really do not belong

Furthermore: rain can fall in a hurricane, but because it is a turbulent area it can soon rise again, rain can fast travel through different temperatures, up and down, and sometimes be vapor, sometimes rain and sometimes hailstone, and sometimes huge hailstones and sometime heavy rain. - It is one big chaos.

What is the size-definition of a rain drop?

A cow know what heavy rain is - do you ?

A cow know what fine-rain is, do you ?

A cow know what fog and sea fog is - do you?

When is a drop a drop ? - Do you know that ?

Cows knows where rain comes from do you? - It is not from the Moon hmmm.... when then and WHY ?


And by the way - thunderclouds carries rain, long before the rain is falling.

Right now it is raining here again; - clouds coming for the Atlantic carry that rain.

As I told you, heavy things can't stay up in the air.

Did you know that cows can disappear in a tornado?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKmSyb5Rujw&NR=1

 

[Paul]

I wrote vapor/mass

Which part of water vapour is less dense than dry air are you having trouble understanding?

 

[MRC_Hans]

I wrote; - vapor/mass and also notice - it can contain.....

You did, and it is wrong. The warmer the air, the more water vapor per mass unit. That is a fact.

When warm air / warm vapor gets colder, the vapor condensate to drops, and fall.

That is correct. We learn this in primary school.

This mean more mass compared to a vapor/rain free air in the same altitude that not contain vapor/rain .

Was that your point? Well, it makes a little bit of sense, because we would expect the volume of moist air the shrink when the water vapor condenses to much denser water drops. Only problem with that is that condensation releases a lot of heat energy, which makes the air expand. So the net result is that the mass/volume is retained.

And as mention serveral times, it also mean there is upwards winds often preventi rain to fall , which mean more mass/vapour/rain in the colder higher altitude as in the (warmer) air below the clouds.

Furthermore: rain can fall in a hurricane, but because it is a turbolent area it can soon rise again, it can fast travel between different temperatures, and sometimes be vapour, sometimes rain and sometimes hailstone, and sometimes huge hailstones. - It is one big chaos.

Well, Bjarne, but all these things belong in the full-grown thunderstorm. YOU were arguing about some gravity action in the beginning of the process.

However, to cut all this short, next time there is a thunderstorm (you will hopefully not meet a tornado in Kolding), monitor your barometer. You will observe that the air pressure falls. There is only one way the air pressure can fall. That is if the air above you is less dense.

So no matter how you twist and turn this, you are factually and provably mistaken: The net mass of a thundercloud is lower than that of the surrounding air.

Live with it.

Hans

 

[wollery]

I wrote; - vapor/mass - and also notice - quote: - it can contain more vapor / mass..... And it most of the time does due to strong upwards wind.

When warm air / warm vapor gets colder, the vapor condensate to drops, and fall. This mean more mass compared to a vapor/rain free area in the same altitude that not contain vapor/rain .

So what you're saying is that air that contains vapour and droplets has more water mass than air that doesn't contain vapour and droplets.

Well, duh!

The point is that warm air can contain more vapour than cold air. As the air cools it condenses. That means that individual water molecules lose energy and instead of bouncing off each other they start to collect together to form droplets. This means that the mass of water vapour goes down and the mass of water droplets goes up, by the same amount. You can't create water mass out of nothing. The mass of water per unit mass of air remains constant, until the water droplets become heavy enough to fall. At which point the mass of water in the cool air becomes considerably lower than the mass in the warm air.

And as mention several times, it also mean there is upwards winds often preventing rain to fall , which mean more mass/vapor/rain in the colder higher altitude as in the (warmer) air below the clouds.

Nope, there's just more droplets in the colder air. The warmer air contains almost all vapour.

 

[Bjarne]

You did, and it is wrong. The warmer the air, the more water vapor per mass unit. That is a fact.

I believe you don’t want to understand this is not the point.

The point is that upwards winds can and do prevent rain to fall.
This is why for example the height of a hurricane can reach more than 15 km. Vapors/water/cows/mass is pushed upwards.

Well, Bjarne, but all these things belong in the full-grown thunderstorm. YOU were arguing about some gravity action in the beginning of the process.

It is well known that also thunderstorms have both up and downwards winds. This is why it is “forbidden” aircraft to fly into these.
Upwards winds continue to lift up vapors and different raindrop size “fog” to pretty large altitude.

You can say water / mass get trapped above a thunder cloud. This is why these get darker and darker. – and heavier and heavier.

By Affrics’s west coast you can have 100 time more powerful thunder systems like here.

However, to cut all this short, next time there is a thunderstorm (you will hopefully not meet a tornado in Kolding), monitor your barometer. You will observe that the air pressure falls. There is only one way the air pressure can fall. That is if the air above you is less dense.

A barometer do only measure the weight of the atmosphere.
Thunderstorms upwards moving winds makes air "lighter", in the same way that you have not so much weight when holding 10 balloons filled with helium that pulls you upwards.

Furthermore the point is what happens above the upwards wind.

Huge amount of RAIN do have huge mass.

Nope, there's just more droplets in the colder air. The warmer air contains almost all vapour.

And that’s all what I am saying, except that these droplet can’t fall so long there is too strong upwards wind.
The ADG is only 10 m/s² – this mean when upwards wind is faster than this, it will prevent rain to fall. Also sideways wind prevent droplets to fall.

First when the upwards wind decreases enough, then suddenly heavy rains falls, so powerful difficult to imaging.

So the upwards wind in any heavy cloud system carries rain, aand hence carry mass, and sometimes heavy cows.

Tell me have you seen this Video..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKmSyb5Rujw&NR=1

 

[MRC_Hans]

I have made a little entry on clouds (and spelled the title wrong, doh):
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6239532#post6239532

I believe you don’t want to understand this is not the point.

Hahah, look who is talking.

The point is that upwards winds can and do prevent rain to fall.
This is why for example the height of a hurricane can reach more than 15 km. Vapors/water/cows/mass is pushed upwards.

I have asked you before, and I ask you again: What makes that air move upwards?

A barometer do only measure the weight of the atmosphere.

Exactly, and what does it mean when your barometer shows a low pressure? YES! It means that the weight of the atmosphere above you is lower.

Thunderstorms upwards moving winds makes air "lighter", in the same way that you have not so much weight when holding 10 balloons filled with helium that pulls you upwards.

That is a silly comparison, but it still boils down to the fact that the air column is lighter.

Furthermore the point is what happens above the upwards wind.

Nothing happens above the upwards wind. The upwards wind can only pull things up, it can't push it.

Huge amount of RAIN do have huge mass.

Huge amounts of rain comes from huge amounts of air. The ONLY source of water is water vapor in the air.

And that’s all what I am saying, except that these droplet can’t fall so long there is too strong upwards wind.
The ADG is only 10 m/s² – this mean when upwards wind is faster than this, it will prevent rain to fall.

Hahah, no you can't do that calculation. 10ms is just a fresh wind. The wind needed to hold something up agaist gravity depends on the combination of mass and air resistance.

Also sideways wind prevent droplets to fall.

Not at all.

First when the upwards wind decreases enough, then suddenly heavy rains falls, so powerful difficult to imaging.

No.

So the upwards wind in any heavy cloud system carries rain, aand hence carry mass, and sometimes heavy cows.

What makes the wind go up?

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

It means that the weight of the atmosphere above you is lower.

+ that upwards moving air is not so “heavy” as calm air.

That is a silly comparison, but it still boils down to the fact that the air column is lighter
The top clouds I see on the sky today (vapour) is no higher than about 1000 meter. Why do you believe vapour/clouds/ rain something is in 15000 meter altitude?

My dear Hanseman, mass is FORCEDto that altitude by upwards strong wind.
NOT because it is lighter.
Do you believe vapour would continue to rise until it reach the moon?
It seems like you do.
The upwards moving wind push vapor/mass/rain into MUCH a higher altitude where it REALLY NOT BELONG.
Muuuuuuuuuuuuuhh
Cows world wide agrees, many have try it on their own body.

Huge amounts of rain comes from huge amounts of air

It is a question how much is trapped in the upper part of a cloud.
Now imaging a Cyclone would drop ½ meter water in your head in 20 minutes.
Water is carried by mainly the center of a cyclone / hurricane.

What makes the wind go up

You mean what made wind from a HUGE area to move up in the center of a low pressure.
We are speaking about a bottleneck and not the cow stupid idea that wind just moves up.
We speak about concentrated energy in a bottleneck.

THIS is why water also is trapped at a central place.

Today Billund got 130 mm rain in 24 hours.
It “never” happen before

Rain is CARRIED by HEAVY clouds, with strong upwards moving wind.

I REALLY Hope you soon get this simple point under the concrete.

 

[Bjarne]

double

 

[Bjarne]

Today Billund Airport (a relative small airport in Denmark) have got 130 mm rain or 500.000.000 Liter water.
200 truck/trailer
At least 5 times the weight of Domus Vista
This is nothing compared to what hurricanes or Cyclone could deliver / carry.
Heavy clouds / clouds systems / hurricanes / Tornadoes - carries HUGE amount of water.

PS
Next time you see the Weather Forecast in television, the red area in the clouds, are HEAVY rain.
We know this for sure hundred and sometimes thousand kilometer before it falls.
It is carried to where it falls.

Now the CPU inside Caroline cows brains is hot, I think I should let her in peace for today and wait to drag more wisdom from here a couple of days.

 

[wollery]

You mean what made wind from a HUGE area to move up in the center of a low pressure.

Well, for half marks you managed to get the words "low pressure" in your vague attempt at an answer. Now, concentrate, really hard. What does "low pressure" imply?

 

[MRC_Hans]

+ that upwards moving air is not so “heavy” as calm air.


My dear Hanseman, mass is FORCEDto that altitude by upwards strong wind.
NOT because it is lighter.
Do you believe vapour would continue to rise until it reach the moon?
It seems like you do.
The upwards moving wind push vapor/mass/rain into MUCH a higher altitude where it REALLY NOT BELONG.
Muuuuuuuuuuuuuhh
Cows world wide agrees, many have try it on their own body.


It is a question how much is trapped in the upper part of a cloud.
Now imaging a Cyclone would drop ½ meter water in your head in 20 minutes.
Water is carried by mainly the center of a cyclone / hurricane.

You mean what made wind from a HUGE area to move up in the center of a low pressure.
We are speaking about a bottleneck and not the cow stupid idea that wind just moves up.
We speak about concentrated energy in a bottleneck.

THIS is why water also is trapped at a central place.

Today Billund got 130 mm rain in 24 hours.
It “never” happen before

Rain is CARRIED by HEAVY clouds, with strong upwards moving wind.

I REALLY Hope you soon get this simple point under the concrete.

Bjarne, you are free to continue showing the world that you have no idea about how rainclouds form and function. Don't let neither me nor such things as facts disturb you.

ETA: If, however, you should want to get some real information, instead of just fantasizing, here is a little bit I wrote for you: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183184

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Bjarne, you are free to continue showing the world that you have no idea about how rainclouds form and function. Don't let neither me nor such things as facts disturb you.

ETA: If, however, you should want to get some real information, instead of just fantasizing, here is a little bit I wrote for you: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=183184

Hans

Cloud formation is caused because warm vapour is rising, yes off course. Who do not know that?

It is s the same reason >> "upwards wind motion" that give clouds the ability to carry weight > rain /vapour/hailstone (mass)…
Notice, we do not know everything about how rain droplets forms, dust and maybe cosmic rays can speed up the process.
And once again, please define a size of a “droplet” – when is a drop a drop? – When is it only fog?

Look at the sky today, look how low the vapors / clouds hangs low today, - why do you think?

Why is the vapour not continuing to rise to 4000 meter altitude, or 10000 meter - it is according to you lighter than the air above, so it “should” just keep rising, shouldn’t it ?

Sometimes the clouds hangs even lower,.
I guess you have guesssed I now speak about heavy thunder clouds.
Why do you think heavy clouds hangs lower, why do also these not just rises to 4000 meters altitude, or to the moon?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Cloud formation is caused because warm vapour is rising, yes off course. Who do not know that?

Well, perhaps you should read my article again. The interesting think is the energy exchange that happens as the water vapor condenses/freezes.

It is s the same reason >> "upwards wind motion" that give clouds the ability to carry weight > rain /vapour/hailstone (mass)…

Irrelevant.

Notice, we do not know everything about how rain droplets forms, dust and maybe cosmic rays can speed up the process.

Correction: We don't know all the ways droplets can form.

And once again, please define a size of a “droplet” – when is a drop a drop? – When is it only fog?

It is a drop whne it can no longer be supported by Brownian motion. In other words, when it gets dominated by gravity and starts to fall.

Look at the sky today, look how low the vapors / clouds hangs low today, - why do you think?

We cannot see vapor, only mist/clouds. The altitude of the cloud base is solely determined by the condensation point, which is in turn determined by the temperature and the relative humidity (RH) of the rising air.

Why is the vapour not continuing to rise to 4000 meter altitude, or 10000 meter - it is according to you lighter than the air above, so it “should” just keep rising, shouldn’t it ?

Not according to me, according to physics. Water vapor gets mixed with the surrounding air, and so does hot air. It takes a very strong source of lift to raise air to 4,000 meter, in conditions where there is no coendensation (dry warm air). Otherwise, deserts would be covered by high clouds.

Typically, you will find the cloud base from 0 - 2,000 meters, but in the extremely humid air we currently have over Denmark, it is probably around 500m-1000m.

Sometimes the clouds hangs even lower,.

As I say, as low as 0m. We usually call that fog, though.

I guess you have guesssed I now speak about heavy thunder clouds.
Why do you think heavy clouds hangs lower, why do also these not just rises to 4000 meters altitude,

They rise to far more than 4,000m, but the cloud base is low because thunderclouds form when the RH is high.

or to the moon?

I think your cows should be able to tell you that.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

It is a drop whne it can no longer be supported by Brownian motion. In other words, when it gets dominated by gravity and starts to fall.
We cannot see vapor, only mist/clouds.

It is a drop whne it can no longer be supported by Brownian motion. In other words, when it gets dominated by gravity and starts to fall.

So what you in fact are saying is; that clouds should not be floating on the sky, but “should” immediately begin to fall to the ground. (!) - ?

So what are all the clouds doing up there (again today), why do you believe that gravity doesn’t seem to be able to pull down the clouds / drops down. .?