Bjarne on: Dark Energy, only an illusion.

[Bjarne]

Bjarne
Do you agree that even the rotation of a big tornado, is MUCH too small to that the Coriolis can be accused for anything. WHY does it at all begin to rotate?
We don't know.
Phunk
Yes, we do know. Wind sheer at the boundary between two layers of air moving at different speeds.
RC
That is right - we do know (but Bjarne will continue to be ignorant of this).

Try to read this
I guess there is 100.000 more site at the internet that tells the same.

How tornadoes organize inflow and rotation is not understood,
sourse> http://www.sas.org/tcs/weeklyIssues_2005/2005-06-03/feature2/index.html

It is not fully understood about how exactly tornadoes form
sourse> http://www.weatherwizkids.com/weather-tornado.htm

Why the rotation can intensify and form tornadoes is not understood
sourse> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=1006012801956

A cold air vortex or shear funnel is a tiny, harmless funnel cloud which occasionally forms underneath or on the sides of normal cumuliform clouds, rarely causing any winds at ground-level.[19] Their genesis and mechanics are poorly understood, as they are quite rare, short lived, and hard to spot (due to their non-rotational nature and small size).
sourse> http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tornado

Researchers and meteorologists do NOT yet know how to predict tornadoes
Once it is understood of how and why tornadoes form, the next step is to attempt to predict their behavior
sourse> http://www.customwritings.com/blog/example-essays/tornado-essay.html

* * *​

He also remains ignorant of the fact that the Coriolis force is not caused by the rotation of weather systems like tornadoes or cyclones or hurricanes.

Now you only “weapon” is MANIPULATION
SHAME ON YOU RC.
I did never claims something that stupid.

• Heated air rises. This causes clouds to form.
• Air flows into replace the heated air.
• This means that there is wind flowing in all directions into the center of the system.

The POINT RC, - is what is triggeringa hurricane west from Africa.

The prevailing orthodox religious answer is : the Chaos Theory. ( for example the out breath from a hunchbacked African cow “should” according to the holy science be enough.)

This is never proven, but only silly desperate speculation.

All breathing cows, and even many dead cows in heaven, know this is a NUTS idea.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Do you agree that even the rotation of a big tornado, is MUCH too small to that the Coriolis can be accused for anything.

Wrong. Even a small summer cloud has rotating air under it, due to the Coriolis effect. This is an observable fact.

WHY does it at all begin to rotate?
We don't know.

You and the cows may not know. The rest of us do.

you must include the chaos theory otherwise it will not work.

For the last time, forget chaos theory. It is way over your head.

When a low pressure extend over relative long distance, yes then Coriolis contribute a lot to speed up the wind speed, rising vapour and heat as well.

No, it does not contribute to speed up the wind. ... Apparently this is also way over your head.

But when wind moves straight east, - the Coriolis can in no way start the rotation alone, - something must “connect” keep the extended mass together from the beginning?

No.

I wrote above; air and vapour begins to move towards the center of a low pressure, due to gravity (ADG), - this is not always necessary.

You wrote that, yes. And it is nonsense.

Now imaging a cloud-system with the diameter of ø 500 km moving straight east > west.

So soon you understand gravity as a “space vacuum” – you’ll also understand that a huge cloud system area is not only a herd of single independent molecules, - BUT a UNITY held together by the COMMON magnitude of a common space vacuum.

More nonsense.

So when a such huge area have a lot of heavy clouds and extend widely, YES in this case the Coriolis only need gravity “to (a certain degree to) hold the cloud system together”.

Ehr, in your scenario, where did those heavy clouds come from?

So what is the mission in this case: - well gravity must have a certain magnitude to be hold a cloud system together (to a certian degree)?

No. A cloud system is 'held together' by a low pressure.

This means a certain amount of mass must be available. So the mission is to dust-bomb heavy clouds system strategic places west from Africa, when there are too many heavy clouds too close, until the mass is below the critical point.

No. Clouds are not heavy, in the weight-sense. They just look heavy. The main engine for a cloud is condensation energy. If you dust bomb them you trigger more condensation and release more energy. The idea of dust bombing is to make the system 'burn out' faster than it can attract more energy, but the idea is not likely to be practical, for a number of reasons.

According to the prevailing understanding gravity is not so strong.

No matter how you choose to understand gravity, it has the same strength. We can observe and measure the strength of gravity, very precisely even, as you have discovered yourself. Even if you are postulating a different origin of gravity, the strength is the same.

And there is still no extra mass in a cloud system to create a gravity center.

And you have still not explained how a gravity center should cause rotation.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

This is even more really really silly after 17 years of ignorance, Bjarne.

17 years? Actually, that would explain a lot, but I'm afraid you are mistaken. Bjarne is much older than that.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Tornadoes have large Rossby numbers (ratio of inertial to Coriolis forces) from the large characteristic velocity divided by the small length scale. This means that the Coriolis force is negligible for tornadoes.

Tornadoes are a special case, because the suction from a supercell is so strong that any initial angular momentum will prevail. Thus, there can be anticyclonic tornadoes.

Perhaps, to be fair, this is what confuses Bjarne. Once the rotation has started, inertia and preservation of angular momentum more or less takes over the show, while the coriolis effect gets deferred to the feed zone, at some distance from the low pressure. But how do you explain that to someone who will not even recognize the existence of inertia?

In fact how do you explain anything to someone who refuses to listen?

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Try to read this
I guess there is 100.000 more site at the internet that tells the same.

Bjarne, your silly hybris with numbers does not help your credibility any. Not that it can get much lower than it is, still.....

We don't know ALL there is to know about weather systems. That does not mean that we don't know the basics. And it does not mean that anybody is free to make their own fantasies.

You are so coy about calling chaos theory religion. What about your own religion? Which FACTS can you present to support that?

I'll tell you which: Absolutely zero.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Wrong. Even a small summer cloud has rotating air under it, due to the Coriolis effect. This is an observable fact.

Crap, hen it should also apply for a small herd of cows.
Different speed north/south ? YES.
Rotation ? – NO

Ehr, in your scenario, where did those heavy clouds come from?

Heavy clouds are weakly held together by gravity, weak rotating upwards winds is also triggered by gravity, (and reinforced by vapour/rain + cold/varm air - up/down circulation).

For the last time, forget chaos theory. It is way over your head.

This is the whole point we are discussion, why should I forget it.
I believe you too understand this is holy crap, and therefore you prefer to forget it. - right ?
My friend then we has nothing to discuss.

Bjarne
When a low pressure extend over relative long distance, yes then Coriolis contribute a lot to speed up the wind speed, rising vapour and heat as well.
Hans
No, it does not contribute to speed up the wind. ... Apparently this is also way over your head.

Crap, the more a low pressure extends the larger angular momentum, seen from a Coriolis perspective.
A gravity field is a UNITY, therefore radius of a low pressure certainly matter.

No. Clouds are not heavy, in the weight-sense. They just look heavy.

Crap, droplet are heavier than air.
For Peters sage READ THIS >> http://www.jimloy.com/physics/clouds.htm

If you dust bomb them you trigger more condensation and release more energy. The idea of dust bombing is to make the system 'burn out' faster than it can attract more energy, but the idea is not likely to be practical, for a number of reasons.

So long a rotation not have started more energy release is not bad, but good.

To trigger rotation (west from Africa)- probably the Coriolis play a larger role, than air moving towards the gravitionel center gravity (caused by ADG). Therefore it is important to weaken the MASS ATTRACTION between the local and the large common gravitionel field.

No matter how you choose to understand gravity, it has the same strength

We have no understanding at all, (not even a billion parts), - of what is MASS ATTRACTION really is.
Gravity is not ONLY small independent air/water molecules, but clouds are gravity UNITIES, these are part of a overall common gravity field.

We can observe and measure the strength of gravity, very precisely even, as you have discovered yourself

Maybe we can measure ADG above the eye of a hurricane, if this is possible you will discover a surprising big downwards pull (due to gravity) This is what this theory already predicts.

This mean heavy clouds close to the common gravity center is stronger mass attracted to the central common center (than you belive).
So long you do not understand the nature of central gravity; it will off course not make any sense to you to understand the strong nature of central gravity.

Keep in mind that we do also not understand how stars 100.000 light years away from a black hole of a galaxy can effects the magnitude of a galaxies black hole. This is a fact since the magnitudes of black holes are proportional with the amount of the surrounding mass.

Extended masses are UNITIES, - much stronger in their center than you can imaging. It is written on every sky with CAPITAL letters.

Tornadoes are a special case, because the suction from a supercell is so strong that any initial angular momentum will prevail.

The cause of these are not understood.
Stop underestimating central gravity, and your universe will completely change.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Crap, hen it should also apply for a small herd of cows.
Different speed north/south ? YES.
Rotation ? – NO

No matter how often you repeat it, you remain wrong.

Heavy clouds are weakly held together by gravity, weak rotating upwards winds is also triggered by gravity, (and reinforced by vapour/rain + cold/varm air - up/down circulation).

No.

This is the whole point we are discussion, why should I forget it.

Because you are not qualified to discuss it.

Crap, droplet are heavier than air.
For Peters sage READ THIS >> http://www.jimloy.com/physics/clouds.htm

I suggest you read it. It says clouds are lighter than air.

To trigger rotation (west from Africa)- probably the Coriolis play a larger role, than air moving towards the gravitionel center gravity (caused by ADG).

How does air move towards a gravity center? What does it do with the air that is already there?

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

Bjarne
Crap, droplets are heavier than air.
For Peters sage READ THIS >> http://www.jimloy.com/physics/clouds.htm
Hans
I suggest you read it. It says clouds are lighter than air.

The article begins:
Quote from the very first line in this artcile :
“We hear that a cloud weighs many hundreds of tons. So, what holds a cloud up in the sky? “
“A cloud is made up of tiny drops of liquid water. These are heavier than air…………..”
And next the article explains how this is possible.
http://www.jimloy.com/physics/clouds.htm

Hans It is meaningless to discuss this further, I belive you don't want to understand something so simple like that..

How does air move towards a gravity center? What does it do with the air that is already there?

Warm air and vapour moving towards the gravitionel center off course push the air above upwards, - this is also what the article above explain you, - and what you still haven't understood.
Rather ask WHY?
Gravity is stronger in the center this is why; therefore the mass near the center will increase faster. Warm air and vapour reinforces the process original started by gravity.

If you do not like this explanation then do you explain WHY you believe wind speed is faster near the center of a hurricane?

 

[MRC_Hans]

The article begins:
Quote from the very first line in this artcile :
“We hear that a cloud weighs many hundreds of tons. So, what holds a cloud up in the sky? “
“A cloud is made up of tiny drops of liquid water. These are heavier than air…………..”
And next the article explains how this is possible.

You need to read the whole article (that is always a good idea). The droplets are lifted by rising air. The rising air is light. The rising air contains water vapor. Water vapor is light.

Warm air and vapour moving towards the gravitionel center off course push the air above upwards, - this is also what the article above explain you, - and what you still haven't understood.

How can it push air upwards against gravity? No, that article says nothing about gravity.

Rather ask WHY?
Gravity is stronger in the center this is why;

Why is gravity stronger? How do you imagine this starts? Forget about water droplets, they only form later; YOU claim that it starts from gravity. So explain how gravity suddenly decides to push clear air upwards (against gravity) and make it rotate.

therefore the mass near the center will increase faster. Warm air and vapour reinforces the process original started by gravity.

How does a mass of uniform clear air suddenly decide to be a gravity center and start rising and rotating? That is what you need to explain.

If you do not like this explanation then do you explain WHY you believe wind speed is faster near the center of a hurricane?

Preservation of angular momentum. Have you ever, as a kid, played on one of those playground carousels? The trick was that 2-4 kids hung as far out from the carousel as possible and kicked it up in speed. When one of them yelled "NOW!" all dragged themselves towards the center, and the carousel started to go really fast. So fast that if one kid waited too long, he would be thrown off!

The more technical explanation is this: The energy depends on rotational speed X momentum. So when the mass comes closer to the center, the momentum gets smaller (shorter leverage), and since energy has to be maintained, the speed must go up.

Ever seen a ballet dancer or a skater in a pirouette? Same thing.

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

The droplets are lifted by rising air

Finally,
and notice the first line “We hear that a cloud weighs many hundreds of tons”

How can it push air upwards against gravity?

2 vectors
1. Gravity
2. Vapour/varm air lift up.

Bjarne
Rather ask WHY?
Gravity is stronger in the center this is why;
Hans
Why is gravity stronger?

Central gravity is stronger than believed. We have been that trough.

How do you imagine this starts?

The nature of space and matter has the ability to define a central point, even for the smallest imbalance in space-matter density.

Gravity, therefore, automatically occurs in circular self-perpetuating manner.

This applies to the formation of cluster of galaxies, galaxies, stars, planets and moons, - AND for triggering any low pressure as well.

Weakly and gradually more vapour will be attracted to the centre and condensate here, this gives more masse to the centre, - this reinforce the process, and more vapour is “fetched”.
The energy of the condensation speed ups the process and more vapour is fetched.. ..BUT it was gravity that was triggering the starting gun.

Forget about water droplets, they only form later; YOU claim that it starts from gravity. So explain how gravity suddenly decides to push clear air upwards (against gravity) and make it rotate.

Read above, it is a “teamwork”
Gravity is the weakest player, - but the smartest.
Gravity in alliance with rising varm air /vapour is a dangerous cocktail.

How does a mass of uniform clear air suddenly decide to be a gravity center and start rising and rotating? That is what you need to explain.

First at all, - the nature of space and matter has the ability to immediately define a central point, even for the smallest imbalance in space-matter density. This also applies for clouds.
Now, - doesn’t matter if ADG is not stable in (homogeneous mass) or increasing, - in both cases a weak movement of air / vapour will seek towards the centre and at the same time upwards, THIS automatically starts rotation of a heavy cloud.
Vapour will condensate and give off mass near the centre, = more attraction, it is a endless self reinforcing process.

This will also gather low pressures that automatically will begin to unify.

What happens in addition is, the upwards moving air from a tornado contributes to the upper air stream.
The upper air stream delivers wind for the distant high pressure.
This stream has a different "requirement" day by day with regard to how fast the wind, which is delivered, must be moving.
When the requirement one day is huge, the upward weak rotating winds from a potential tornado area can be a very "welcome guest" to enter into the upper airstreams, and be nearly sucked upwards by the strong "delivery requirement" in the upper flowing air stream.

A tornado is therefore a combination of more than one factor .
This new theory implies that a better understanding of the force of gravity is important, it is the basic for also better understanding how and why small low pressure systems begins to rotate.

Preservation of angular momentum. Have you ever, as a kid, played on one of those playground carousels? The trick was that 2-4 kids hung as far out from the carousel as possible and kicked it up in speed. When one of them yelled "NOW!" all dragged themselves towards the center, and the carousel started to go really fast. So fast that if one kid waited too long, he would be thrown off!

The more technical explanation is this: The energy depends on rotational speed X momentum. So when the mass comes closer to the center, the momentum gets smaller (shorter leverage), and since energy has to be maintained, the speed must go up.

This doesn’t explain why air suddenly should seeks toward the center.
Nothing has pushed the children towards the center. Rather opposite it have require force to get there.

When first the rotation process of a hurricane have started it is easy to understand what happens, it is simplye for air and vapour just keep following the same path upwards.

But what have triggered that center seeking process.

Try to be quite; - can you also hear gravity is laughing of us?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Finally,
and notice the first line “We hear that a cloud weighs many hundreds of tons”

So do freightships. Why don't they sink?

Bjarne, air weighs roughly one kilgram per m². So one km³ of air, which is really not a lot as clouds go, weighs about a thousand tons. A cloud is heavy, but it is still lighter than the surrounding air. It simply floats.

The explanation in that article is not really very good if you ask me, because they ask a very simple question and give a very complex answer. The simple answer (and I know you like simple answers) is that the air in a cloud is warmer than the air surrounding it, therefore it is lighter.

2 vectors
1. Gravity
2. Vapour/varm air lift up.

No. Wrong way around.

Central gravity is stronger than believed. We have been that trough.

The nature of space and matter has the ability to define a central point, even for the smallest imbalance in space-matter density.

*yada, yada*

But what have triggered that center seeking process.

Bjarne, all that is just something you dream up. Why should I even consider it. You have nothing to show for it. It doesn't even make sense.

Try to be quite; - can you also hear gravity is laughing of us?

No, that's just the people reading your posts. We keep you here for the fun. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Hans

 

[Paul]

therefore the mass near the center will increase faster.

This section particularly caught my attention, as the natural consequence of Bjarne's thesis was perhaps best expressed by Professor John Martyn in his 1973 lecture Consequences of Unstructured Conjecture and Concomitant Fallacious Reasoning in the Study of Nebulous Meteorological Phenomena, delivered here as part of New Malden University's infamous Jazz Folk Meteorology series:

 

[Bjarne]

So do freightships. Why don't they sink?

Because of the same reason, - water is heavier than air, - inside the freight ships is air (and sometimes cows).

Bjarne, air weighs roughly one kilogram per m2.

Depending on temperature and altitude.

A cloud is heavy, but it is still lighter than the surrounding air. It simply floats.

Crap,
Droplets supplant air, simply due to the space these occupies, and these are heavier than the air they supplant.

Upwards moving vapour and warm air prevents these from falling the whole way to the ground, - due to the vapour / droplet circulation that takes place in a cloud, and due to upward moving air/vapour.
Without that upward motion and circulation, - clouds would simply fall down to the ground.

Bjarne, all that is just something you dream up. Why should I even consider it. You have nothing to show for it. It doesn't even make sense.

Your chaos religion is almost 9999934536383467 % more stupid.
Advise take a tour with a glider, and build a heavy timber yard.

 

[MRC_Hans]

air weighs roughly one kilgram per m². So one km³ of air, which is really not a lot as clouds go, weighs about a thousand tons.

Jesh, I must have accidentially borrowed Bjarne's calculator.

But the point stands: The weight og a cloud is not what matters, in tons. It is the weight relative to the surrounding air that matters.

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Because of the same reason, - water is heavier than air, - inside the freight ships is air (and sometimes cows).

Exactly. They replace their weight in water, so they float.

Depending on temperature and altitude.

Of course. But irrelevant.

Crap,
Droplets supplant air, simply due to the space these occupies, and these are heavier than the air they supplant.

The droplets condense out of the surrounding air. As vapor they can at most take up a few percent of the volume of air. The volume they displace as water is insignificant.

Upwards moving vapour and warm air prevents these from falling the whole way to the ground, - due to the vapour / droplet circulation that takes place in a cloud, and due to upward moving air/vapour.

An upgoing air stream cannot support something without impacting the pressure. If the airstream must lift something, the pressure underneath will rise. The fact that there is still a low pressure proves that the total mass is still lower than the surrounding air. In case you didn't know this is because warm air is lighter than cold air.

Without that upward motion and circulation, - clouds would simply fall down to the ground.

Bjarne, for crying out loud. Don't you understand anything of what you read? I explained it, the article you just referred me to half a dozen times explains it: Without that upwards motion, there would not be any clouds at all. They would not fall to the ground, they would not exist.

Advise take a tour with a glider, and build a heavy timber yard.

Was that supposed to mean anything?

Hans

 

[Bjarne]

The volume they displace as water is insignificant.

Try to tell this to the staff at Billund airport that.
Here was falling 500.000.000 liter on one day.
Most part on few hours.
A hurricane could probably have dropped 10 times so much.
Insignificant?
I don’t think so.

The droplets condense out of the surrounding air.

What ?

Without that upwards motion, there would not be any clouds at all. They would not fall to the ground, they would not exist.

Crap

An upgoing air stream cannot support something without impacting the pressure.

Crap.

If the airstream must lift something, the pressure underneath will rise. The fact that there is still a low pressure proves that the total mass is still lower than the surrounding air. In case you didn't know this is because warm air is lighter than cold air.

No.
OK Hans now you force me to now finally cut it in cardboard.

PLEASE make the experiment you can see in the illustration.
But do it a dark night like shown.

So long there is upward moving air there is a low pressure on the ground, and everywhere in the upwards moving stream. A low pressure = (mainly) air / vapour in upwards motion. .

Yes if there are many cows (or water droplet) in the air one day, the upwards moving air is of that reason a bit slower, but the low pressure would still be there, - so long air/vapour is moving UPWARDS.

And clouds and cows would certainly fall to the ground, when vapour or rising air no longer is there.

This is why cows and rain begin to fall when a hurricane reach land.

Why ?

The supporting upwards moving air gets significant reduced, and splash, torrential rain is a result.

So now run the experiment, the prediction is that when the Ingersoll runs out of diesel, the cow would fall.
Why ? Because it is heavier than air. Got the point ?
Hans even if you would silly-argue to Judgment Day, it is a fact that droplets are heavier than air, exactly like the cows are.

 

[steenkh]

The depths of Bjarne's ignorance seem to know no boundaries. Is it possible that he is actually also stupid? The world wonders ...

But he is good entertainment.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Try to tell this to the staff at Billund airport that.
Here was falling 500.000.000 liter on one day.
Most part on few hours.
A hurricane could probably have dropped 10 times so much.
Insignificant?
I don’t think so.

What was the mass of the rain couds that day?

What ?


Crap


Crap.

The wooshing soundyou hear is arguments going over your head.

So long there is upward moving air there is a low pressure on the ground, and everywhere in the upwards moving stream. A low pressure = (mainly) air / vapour in upwards motion. .

No. You are simply wrong. Why is the cow flying? Because the pressure under it is high enough to lift it.

And clouds and cows would certainly fall to the ground, when vapour or rising air no longer is there.

I bos to your experience with cows, but clouds won't.

The supporting upwards moving air gets significant reduced, and splash, torrential rain is a result.

You seem to be underthe impression that if you repeat nonsense enough, it stops being nonsense. You are mistaken. All you get is a lot of nonsense.

Bjarne, you are running out of steam. If you don't find something more entertaining than this gibberish, I shall put you on ignore.

Counting down: 3

Hans

 

[Taarkin]

Actually I'm pretty sure precipitation is caused when a low pressure front causes Bjarne's posts to rise into heaven, where the Baby Jesus reads them and then weeps for humanity.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Actually I'm pretty sure precipitation is caused when a low pressure front causes Bjarne's posts to rise into heaven, where the Baby Jesus reads them and then weeps for humanity.

Since Bjarne's posts are 99.9999999942% hot air, they can rise all by themselves.

Hans